Dog breeders or anyone with experience in this field, please read this email - GoFuckYourself.com

kush2 · 02-18-2004, 01:07 AM

I am considering going into the dog breeding/selling business with an associate of mine. Please read this email that he sent me and let me know what you think, if the numbers are accurate, and any potential pitfalls you may see.

Astericks block out any personal information in regards to myself or this person.

I'm going to bed now, but I look forward to seeing your comments in the morning. Also, if anyone sees this go off the first page, I would really appreciate if you could bump this for me.

thanks,
Kush

----------------begin email----------------
Hi *********, If you have any direct questions I can answer for you about breeding or training, competions exctra Email me, and I should be
able to answer same day. The two breeds I was talking to Nate about are Olde English Bulldogge and English Mastiffs. The reason I
go after these to breeds are the larger dogs produce more offspring and the avg. price for bulldog is $1500 price for mastiff is about
$1000 + or- depending on the quality of off spring. here is the deal 10 female dogs avg. litter between both breeds 10 puppies, usually
more, (I aim low). 10 x 10 = 100 x 2 (you can breed 2 times per year) = 200 x $1250.00 (avrg price per puppy between both breeds) =
$250,000.00 per year. Now like I told ******* I would split profit on the first 4 litters which means you would make about $250,00.00 over
a 4 year period. all for a investment of around $20,000.00. 12.5 times your investment. I know it seems hard to believe but if your dad
had told you when you were 12 that you could make ********* a year pushing smut you have thought the same thing.

Here is a break down on the expenses I would expect you to pay.

Dogs
mastiffs 5 $4000.00 could be as low as $3500.00
Bulldogs 5 $5500.00 could be as low as $4000.00
Food 2 yrs $4500.00 could be as low as $2400.00
Registration $350.00
Pup Regist $1800.00 (forty litters)
Kennel/house$2000.00 Could be as low as $800.00
Vet Expences$2000.00 Could be as low as $500.00
mis supplies$1500.00 Could be as low as $750.00
Total invest$21650.00 Could be as low as $13750.00

For every $1000.00 I save you I get a bonus of $250.00

Look, no lie, dogs are a LOT of work, training them is a big part, if your old lady's mom farted and burped, pissed on the carpet and
told you to fuck off every time you saw her you would probably not pay a whole lot if anything for her, and if you like it or not every man
pays for snatch in one form or other, so it is true with dogs, they ain't high dollar whores but they are high dollar dogs, God could
strike them dead for cheap thrills, The ASPCA could stick a finger up your ass and your 200 # dog could get loose and eat the
neighbor lady. My point is their is risk in everything, figure out what you want to do, as Far as this goes, but you must deiced quick -
by Thursday morning. I am already in the process of buying dogs and your capital frees me to do other things with my cash and jumps
starts me by about 6 months. I hope we can do this because I think it will be a lot of fun and we can make some $$$. HOPE TO
HEAR FROM YOU SOON!

THANKS - ***********

----------end of email-----------

twistyneck · 02-18-2004, 01:10 AM

I can tell you right now that you will lose all of your money. Seen this about a thousand times before. It is extremely hard to make money raising any kind of animal at all. Don't do it.

Nas7782 · 02-18-2004, 01:15 AM

Unless you have a dog w/ champion lines, it's not worth it. Even w/ champion blood, unless it is a highly prized dog, it is not worth the effort.

If I were a breeder, I'll definitely breed German Shepard, since they're usually more highly prize than other breeds.

VideoVoyeur · 02-18-2004, 01:17 AM

People who run puppy mills suck ass and need to be ass raped.

Mr.Fiction · 02-18-2004, 01:21 AM

If you want to know about "dog breeding", check The Hun!

kush2 · 02-18-2004, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by twistyneck
I can tell you right now that you will lose all of your money. Seen this about a thousand times before. It is extremely hard to make money raising any kind of animal at all. Don't do it.

Can you tell me where most breeders go wrong? Or what stops them from making money?

I've heard from someone else that dog breeding is not very profitable, I'm just trying to see what makes it not profitable.

If the numbers this guy gave me from the email hold up, then on paper it looks like an excellent venture to try.

Sylver7 · 02-18-2004, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kush2

Can you tell me where most breeders go wrong? Or what stops them from making money?

Reputable breeders (the ones that have quality dogs) don't really make money breeding dogs. They do it (generally speaking) to improve the breed. They also have dogs with generations of proven bloodlines. This guy sounds like he is looking to start a puppy mill. Bad news all the way around. People don't spend 1000.00 + on a dog from a puppy mill.

PersianKitty · 02-18-2004, 01:59 AM

"On Paper" is the key phrase.

I know several dog and cat breeders locally. What you're talking about with 10 female dogs having litters twice a year to produce upwards of 200 puppies cries "puppy mill" to me. A true breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed not for the bottom line.

One breeder I know actually does breed English Bulldogs. Her pups go for $1800+ each. She has 2 females and one male (the male is a past champion). Other breedings are arranged with sires who have desirable traits and good bloodlines. An average litter size is 4 to 6 dogs not 10 (or more). Many female English Bulldogs have problems giving birth and the pups have to be born by C-section (added vet costs). The breed itself is prone to knee and hip problems so any knowledgeable buyer will demand proof of bloodlines.
This breeder only allows her females to breed once a year. Out of the four total litters over the past two years, there were a total of 20 puppies (that's an average of 5 per litter). Of those 20 puppies, 4 never thrived and died after days and even weeks of exhaustive hand feeding, vet expenses and the like. She sold the pups for an average of $2000 each. So of the remaining 16 pups, 2 went to breeders as part of breeding arrangements that had been made. That left 14 pups to be sold for a total of $28,000. When she factored in the costs of housing, feeding, and medical care for the 3 adults along with vet expenses for the pups from birth (all have to be wormed and vet certified along with some of their first shots before they are every sold), the tangible costs were almost $13,000. That includes the cost of the 4 pups that never made it. She's left with a net of $15,000 over 2 years. She does not work outside of the home. With pups to be sold for that amount, you don't just head to work and hope they're all okay when you get home. So essentially her time, efforts, not to mention emotions (you can't help but get attached) got her $7,500 a year.

The year prior to the last two...the major breeding female she had died with pups on board. 6 pups and the mother (a household pet) gone in the blink of an eye.

PersianKitty · 02-18-2004, 02:02 AM

On the bull mastiff side, a bit of research online will tell you that while average litter size may be 7 or so, with a litter much larger it is doubtful that all will thrive unless the mom has some help feeding them. Mastiffs are very stubborn dogs and have to be worked with from early on. If not they are near untrainable.

Price for a pup is $800 to $1500 depending on several variables.

twistyneck · 02-18-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PersianKitty
"On Paper" is the key phrase.

I know several dog and cat breeders locally. What you're talking about with 10 female dogs having litters twice a year to produce upwards of 200 puppies cries "puppy mill" to me. A true breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed not for the bottom line.

One breeder I know actually does breed English Bulldogs. Her pups go for $1800+ each. She has 2 females and one male (the male is a past champion). Other breedings are arranged with sires who have desirable traits and good bloodlines. An average litter size is 4 to 6 dogs not 10 (or more). Many female English Bulldogs have problems giving birth and the pups have to be born by C-section (added vet costs). The breed itself is prone to knee and hip problems so any knowledgeable buyer will demand proof of bloodlines.
This breeder only allows her females to breed once a year. Out of the four total litters over the past two years, there were a total of 20 puppies (that's an average of 5 per litter). Of those 20 puppies, 4 never thrived and died after days and even weeks of exhaustive hand feeding, vet expenses and the like. She sold the pups for an average of $2000 each. So of the remaining 16 pups, 2 went to breeders as part of breeding arrangements that had been made. That left 14 pups to be sold for a total of $28,000. When she factored in the costs of housing, feeding, and medical care for the 3 adults along with vet expenses for the pups from birth (all have to be wormed and vet certified along with some of their first shots before they are every sold), the tangible costs were almost $13,000. That includes the cost of the 4 pups that never made it. She's left with a net of $15,000 over 2 years. She does not work outside of the home. With pups to be sold for that amount, you don't just head to work and hope they're all okay when you get home. So essentially her time, efforts, not to mention emotions (you can't help but get attached) got her $7,500 a year.

The year prior to the last two...the major breeding female she had died with pups on board. 6 pups and the mother (a household pet) gone in the blink of an eye.

This is exactly what happens time and time and time again.

Now get this through your skull...

If you do this, you will lose all of your money. Read that sentence over and over again until it becomes part of your very being.

If it can die or rot you had better know what you are doing before you try to sell it. You don't have a clue and neither does your friend. This is more than obvious from the numbers he is throwing at you. There is no fucking way the return will be anything close to what he's estimating and frankly I'd be surprised if he made a profit at all.

Do whatever you want, just don't start a donations thread when you get the call that he's gone bankrupt and your $20k went with it.

DeadFidel · 02-18-2004, 02:13 AM

If you are going to do it mainly for the money, GOOD FUCKING LUCK!
My breeder (of German Shepherds) works 20 hour days and just makes a living at it, but again she is into it for the love of the breed and does it right.
There are so many other factors and expenses that you did not even mention, like land, travel, AKC politics, etc.
It's a tough gig to do correctly.

DeadFidel · 02-18-2004, 02:22 AM

I read that letter a second time...FUCK THAT!!!!!
VidVoy and twisty..

Better hope KRL does not read this thread

PersianKitty · 02-18-2004, 02:40 AM

I was doing a bit of research on your numbers...

Dogs
mastiffs 5 $4000.00 could be as low as $3500.00
Bulldogs 5 $5500.00 could be as low as $4000.00
Food 2 yrs $4500.00 could be as low as $2400.00
Registration $350.00
Pup Regist $1800.00 (forty litters)
Kennel/house$2000.00 Could be as low as $800.00
Vet Expences$2000.00 Could be as low as $500.00
mis supplies$1500.00 Could be as low as $750.00
Total invest$21650.00 Could be as low as $13750.00

Here's what I find..

5 breeder quality female mastiffs ($2000 to $3000 each) each must be OFA certified for PRA, Cardiac, and elbow dysplasia along with Sires being certified for those plus patella, thyroid and hips. $15,000
5 breeder quality female english bulldogs ($2000 and up..I saw a site that sold breeding rites for there pups for an extra $1500). $10,000.

$4500 for two years for food? I have 6 cats that I spend $80 a month on for food alone.

Your estimate for kennel/housing is way low at $2000. You can't expect to keep 10 dogs especially when 5 are mastiffs in a small environment (then you definitely have a puppy mill). You'd have to erect a building, have an area for exercise, etc. You're estimate sounds more like they are going in a garage in 10 airline crates.. PLEASE GAWD I HOPE NOT.

You have nothing set aside for stud fees.

Your vet expenses are understated. A c-section alone can start at $350 and more. Health checks for each pup can run $50 a piece, not to mention vaccines and worming.

DeadFidel · 02-18-2004, 02:58 AM

PersianKitty,..Nice research (good job).
I hope it will help Kush2.

flashfire · 02-18-2004, 03:06 AM

too many homeless dogs as it is...please adopt and get others to do the same

wyldblyss · 02-18-2004, 03:32 AM

Well aren't those numbers awesome. Too bad they are way off. Now lets get started.

Time: 10 dogs will take up most of your time, they need attention, exercise and grooming. Yes, all dogs need to be kept clean, nails trimmed etc. Dogs being bred should be trained, that takes time and money. Also, there is basic clean up of dog shit etc....and man, with 10 dogs you are talking a whole lot of shit....when puppies arrive....you will have shit and piss coming out of your ears.

Vet Costs: We have regular shots, regular checkups, then there are health checks for every breeding female/male to make sure they are free of the problems associated with that particular breed (hips, knees, eyes etc.). Expensive and if they don't pass you can't breed them and then you are stuck with the dog or have to find a home for it. If the dog needs a C-section then that can cost anywhere from 1,000 on up. You will find quotes much lower than this, but wait until you get to the vets, the price skyrockets from 400 bucks up to a grand or more with all the ad-ons. In my area, they also charge $60 bucks PER puppy for "assisted delivery". If the puppies at birth need attention, that adds to the price. Then you have your run of the mill vet expenses, mine always end up at the vets for some reason or another during the year. Don't forget dental care and cleanings by the vet and the cost to get females no longer being bred, or because of health unable to be bred fixed. Several hundred there.

Food: Breeders should be fed nothing but the highest quality of food, 10 dogs could cost you 800 or more per month to feed them...if you give them high quality treats like greenies, then that can put a nice dent in your budget (greenies can run a buck a piece)

If you work outside the home you will need about a month off for each delivery, two weeks before due date until 2 weeks after birth. You have to be there day and night in case there are complications with birth, or one of the puppies running into problems.

Cost of ads etc. to sell the pups, plus the time to screen prospective people ads greatly to your time expenditure. Also, if you can't sell a pup or two or 5 what are you going to do with them?

Breeders are a TIGHT circle and don't even think about putting them up for sale on the Internet unless your dogs have champion bloodlines, you have a totally amazing setup etc. because they will hound and harass you like no tomorrow...because they will call you a puppy-miller.

Females should be at least 2 years old, if not 3 before you breed them, so you will have all these dogs around for a few years before you get any puppies. Females can NOT breed every heat. It is extremely hard on them physically and the number and quality of dogs will go down each litter. Respected breeders will breed their dogs every second heat, some every third. If you breed them and they don't "take" then you have to wait another 6 months until they go in heat again. If you need studs, then that is an additional expense....so is trying to find a stud that has the background you need. Shipping your dog to the stud, or having the stud flown in etc. is more money.

Then there is the ongoing problem of what you do when the females can't breed any longer. You have to get them fixed and find them a home. Rehoming an older dog is not easy and you would "owe" that dog a good home, so you can't exactly drop her off at a shelter.

On top of all of that is finding the "right" dogs. You buy bargain basement and that is the quality of dogs you will get. The better the bloodline the bigger the price and if you think you can march up to a breeder with dollars in hand and expect them to give you a puppy for breeding you are mistaken. The VAST MAJORITY of high quality dog with backgrounds good enough for breeding are sold on a spay/neuter contract. This means you can NOT breed them. If you think you can just buy the dog and breed it anyway, forget it, dogs sold on this type of contract are registered with that clause meaning NO offspring can be registered. Unregistered dogs do not bring in that much money. Unregistered and people think it isn't purebred. Finding a breeder to give someone with no experience a puppy for breeding would be very difficult....and once they found out you are getting them in large numbers.....then your chances go down.

Oh, and don't forget the good old city ordinances. You may have to move. Most cities will not allow you to have 10 dogs at your home, so you may have to buy a kennel outside of the city. This also requires kennel licences, breeders licence, inspections etc.

We don't even want to get into neighbors complaining about the barking of 10 dogs etc. Breeding sounds like an instant money maker..it is not...it is expensive, with no guarantees and requires a ton of time, effort, patience and a thick skin. It isn't easy watching a dog give birth to still-born puppies etc. or a puppy with medical problems. The "sick" dogs will be your responsibility forever. The city/county would never allow you to just dump them off for them to take care of every time one isn't fit to be sold.

erehwon · 02-18-2004, 03:32 AM

Good luck, if you are looking for other investment opportunities, I might still have an undeveloped block in East St. Louis Illinois for sale.

raceman · 02-18-2004, 03:36 AM

In a strange way this is one of the nicest threads ive read since joining GFY last year. There is Kush2 debating over an investment and all you guys club together to help out and point him/her in the right direction with some amazing "intel" and facts and to my surprise not one

in the thread.

GFY never ceases to amaze me

And concur with everyone else "dont do it you will lose the $20k

RACEMAN

grumpy · 02-18-2004, 03:40 AM

You all forget the most important thing. You are working with live stock.

YOU MUST LOVE YOUR DOGS. If you dont you will never be an succesfull breeder. To charge the prices you are thinking of you need to establish a name and / or reputation. To build a reputation you have to do shows etc. Then you need studs, they cost money. We own some dogs ( champs ) so i think i know what im talking about.

kush2 · 02-18-2004, 03:43 AM

Everybody, and Persian Kitty especially, I sincerely appreciate your help.

One thing that I did not express is that I'm a 21 year old entrepreneur - but an ethical one at that. I currently run both adult and mainstream sites, and I am now into real estate investment / rental properties. From the initial information that I received just a few days ago, top dollar dog breeding sounded like an incredible investment opportunity.

After reading all of these posts and from some of my own independent research, I tell you right now that this is not something I will further pursue. It seems like the dogs would not receive the care they deserve from this guy managing them and on top of that in order to do it the "right way," the profit margin would be so low. And I always do thing the right way ;)

So once again, thanks, but it looks like I'll be on the lookout for another new venture.

And the name's Kush, not kush2 ;) (unable to recover an old gfy password hence the new name)

'Nite everyone!

kush2 · 02-18-2004, 03:50 AM

Wyldblyss, let me also say a special thanks for your post as well - it was incredibly informative. Somehow I tend to receive good responses whenever I ask for help/information on any board. ;)

This guy was seeking my funding because he said it would put him ahead of schedule by 6 months. And it seemed like he was cutting me a great deal for funding him.

Well, you have my word I'll use my influence and persuasion to try to dissuade him from his intended course of action.

I've only had a dog once in my life (he was run over by a car sadly), but I love the animals and definitely don't want to see them treated badly. What the hell was I thinking about selling 200 puppies a year?!!

oh well, thanks again

DeadFidel · 02-18-2004, 03:55 AM

Kush,
Glad the board helped!
GFY is pet friendly

vapewiz · 02-18-2004, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kush2
Everybody, and Persian Kitty especially, I sincerely appreciate your help.

One thing that I did not express is that I'm a 21 year old entrepreneur - but an ethical one at that. I currently run both adult and mainstream sites, and I am now into real estate investment / rental properties. From the initial information that I received just a few days ago, top dollar dog breeding sounded like an incredible investment opportunity.

After reading all of these posts and from some of my own independent research, I tell you right now that this is not something I will further pursue. It seems like the dogs would not receive the care they deserve from this guy managing them and on top of that in order to do it the "right way," the profit margin would be so low. And I always do thing the right way ;)

So once again, thanks, but it looks like I'll be on the lookout for another new venture.

And the name's Kush, not kush2 ;) (unable to recover an old gfy password hence the new name)

'Nite everyone!

VideoVoyeur · 02-18-2004, 04:49 AM

My dogs name is Jasmine Too Wong Foo.

She is a pure bred Shar Pei, her father is Shir Du Bang , her grandfather is Down Homes China Souel the first Shar Pei to EVER be registered in AKC as a Shar Pei when they started allowing them to be AKC registered.

I paid $4500 for her in 1994, and If I bred her, I would want a very substantial amount of money.

I have every single akc paper I ever recieved from her including the breeders number and the breeders Breeders number.

But to make a puppy mill with 20 dogs just to crank out puppies, with no papers, and you really dont give 2 shits about the dog is just bullshit, its also illegal.

kush2 · 02-18-2004, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VideoVoyeur
But to make a puppy mill with 20 dogs just to crank out puppies, with no papers, and you really dont give 2 shits about the dog is just bullshit, its also illegal.

I totally agree, no intentions of doing it either this illegal way, or even a legal way for that matter.

Dogs just aren't profitable.

02-18-2004, 01:07 AM	#1
kush2 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 495	Dog breeders or anyone with experience in this field, please read this email I am considering going into the dog breeding/selling business with an associate of mine. Please read this email that he sent me and let me know what you think, if the numbers are accurate, and any potential pitfalls you may see. Astericks block out any personal information in regards to myself or this person. I'm going to bed now, but I look forward to seeing your comments in the morning. Also, if anyone sees this go off the first page, I would really appreciate if you could bump this for me. thanks, Kush ----------------begin email---------------- Hi *******, If you have any direct questions I can answer for you about breeding or training, competions exctra Email me, and I should be able to answer same day. The two breeds I was talking to Nate about are Olde English Bulldogge and English Mastiffs. The reason I go after these to breeds are the larger dogs produce more offspring and the avg. price for bulldog is $1500 price for mastiff is about $1000 + or- depending on the quality of off spring. here is the deal 10 female dogs avg. litter between both breeds 10 puppies, usually more, (I aim low). 10 x 10 = 100 x 2 (you can breed 2 times per year) = 200 x $1250.00 (avrg price per puppy between both breeds) = $250,000.00 per year. Now like I told *** I would split profit on the first 4 litters which means you would make about $250,00.00 over a 4 year period. all for a investment of around $20,000.00. 12.5 times your investment. I know it seems hard to believe but if your dad had told you when you were 12 that you could make ***** a year pushing smut you have thought the same thing. Here is a break down on the expenses I would expect you to pay. Dogs mastiffs 5 $4000.00 could be as low as $3500.00 Bulldogs 5 $5500.00 could be as low as $4000.00 Food 2 yrs $4500.00 could be as low as $2400.00 Registration $350.00 Pup Regist $1800.00 (forty litters) Kennel/house$2000.00 Could be as low as $800.00 Vet Expences$2000.00 Could be as low as $500.00 mis supplies$1500.00 Could be as low as $750.00 Total invest$21650.00 Could be as low as $13750.00 For every $1000.00 I save you I get a bonus of $250.00 Look, no lie, dogs are a LOT of work, training them is a big part, if your old lady's mom farted and burped, pissed on the carpet and told you to fuck off every time you saw her you would probably not pay a whole lot if anything for her, and if you like it or not every man pays for snatch in one form or other, so it is true with dogs, they ain't high dollar whores but they are high dollar dogs, God could strike them dead for cheap thrills, The ASPCA could stick a finger up your ass and your 200 # dog could get loose and eat the neighbor lady. My point is their is risk in everything, figure out what you want to do, as Far as this goes, but you must deiced quick - by Thursday morning. I am already in the process of buying dogs and your capital frees me to do other things with my cash and jumps starts me by about 6 months. I hope we can do this because I think it will be a lot of fun and we can make some $$$. HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON! THANKS - ********* ----------end of email----------- __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

02-18-2004, 01:21 AM	#5
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	If you want to know about "dog breeding", check The Hun! __________________ Don't be lazy, protect free speech: ACLU \| Free Speech Coalition \| EFF \| IMPA

02-18-2004, 01:59 AM	#8
PersianKitty Meow Media Inc. Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: In the valley of the sun, cactus, tacos, tequila, and nod Posts: 7,785	"On Paper" is the key phrase. I know several dog and cat breeders locally. What you're talking about with 10 female dogs having litters twice a year to produce upwards of 200 puppies cries "puppy mill" to me. A true breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed not for the bottom line. One breeder I know actually does breed English Bulldogs. Her pups go for $1800+ each. She has 2 females and one male (the male is a past champion). Other breedings are arranged with sires who have desirable traits and good bloodlines. An average litter size is 4 to 6 dogs not 10 (or more). Many female English Bulldogs have problems giving birth and the pups have to be born by C-section (added vet costs). The breed itself is prone to knee and hip problems so any knowledgeable buyer will demand proof of bloodlines. This breeder only allows her females to breed once a year. Out of the four total litters over the past two years, there were a total of 20 puppies (that's an average of 5 per litter). Of those 20 puppies, 4 never thrived and died after days and even weeks of exhaustive hand feeding, vet expenses and the like. She sold the pups for an average of $2000 each. So of the remaining 16 pups, 2 went to breeders as part of breeding arrangements that had been made. That left 14 pups to be sold for a total of $28,000. When she factored in the costs of housing, feeding, and medical care for the 3 adults along with vet expenses for the pups from birth (all have to be wormed and vet certified along with some of their first shots before they are every sold), the tangible costs were almost $13,000. That includes the cost of the 4 pups that never made it. She's left with a net of $15,000 over 2 years. She does not work outside of the home. With pups to be sold for that amount, you don't just head to work and hope they're all okay when you get home. So essentially her time, efforts, not to mention emotions (you can't help but get attached) got her $7,500 a year. The year prior to the last two...the major breeding female she had died with pups on board. 6 pups and the mother (a household pet) gone in the blink of an eye. __________________ Wondering what webmaster programs PK uses? Check them out here!

02-18-2004, 02:02 AM	#9
PersianKitty Meow Media Inc. Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: In the valley of the sun, cactus, tacos, tequila, and nod Posts: 7,785	On the bull mastiff side, a bit of research online will tell you that while average litter size may be 7 or so, with a litter much larger it is doubtful that all will thrive unless the mom has some help feeding them. Mastiffs are very stubborn dogs and have to be worked with from early on. If not they are near untrainable. Price for a pup is $800 to $1500 depending on several variables. __________________ Wondering what webmaster programs PK uses? Check them out here! Last edited by PersianKitty; 02-18-2004 at 02:10 AM..

02-18-2004, 02:40 AM	#13
PersianKitty Meow Media Inc. Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: In the valley of the sun, cactus, tacos, tequila, and nod Posts: 7,785	I was doing a bit of research on your numbers... Dogs mastiffs 5 $4000.00 could be as low as $3500.00 Bulldogs 5 $5500.00 could be as low as $4000.00 Food 2 yrs $4500.00 could be as low as $2400.00 Registration $350.00 Pup Regist $1800.00 (forty litters) Kennel/house$2000.00 Could be as low as $800.00 Vet Expences$2000.00 Could be as low as $500.00 mis supplies$1500.00 Could be as low as $750.00 Total invest$21650.00 Could be as low as $13750.00 Here's what I find.. 5 breeder quality female mastiffs ($2000 to $3000 each) each must be OFA certified for PRA, Cardiac, and elbow dysplasia along with Sires being certified for those plus patella, thyroid and hips. $15,000 5 breeder quality female english bulldogs ($2000 and up..I saw a site that sold breeding rites for there pups for an extra $1500). $10,000. $4500 for two years for food? I have 6 cats that I spend $80 a month on for food alone. Your estimate for kennel/housing is way low at $2000. You can't expect to keep 10 dogs especially when 5 are mastiffs in a small environment (then you definitely have a puppy mill). You'd have to erect a building, have an area for exercise, etc. You're estimate sounds more like they are going in a garage in 10 airline crates.. PLEASE GAWD I HOPE NOT. You have nothing set aside for stud fees. Your vet expenses are understated. A c-section alone can start at $350 and more. Health checks for each pup can run $50 a piece, not to mention vaccines and worming. __________________ Wondering what webmaster programs PK uses? Check them out here!

02-18-2004, 01:10 AM	#2
twistyneck So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hanging by the neck until dead. Posts: 4,660	I can tell you right now that you will lose all of your money. Seen this about a thousand times before. It is extremely hard to make money raising any kind of animal at all. Don't do it.

02-18-2004, 01:15 AM	#3
Nas7782 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: .US Posts: 493	Unless you have a dog w/ champion lines, it's not worth it. Even w/ champion blood, unless it is a highly prized dog, it is not worth the effort. If I were a breeder, I'll definitely breed German Shepard, since they're usually more highly prize than other breeds.

02-18-2004, 01:17 AM	#4
VideoVoyeur So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 2,181	People who run puppy mills suck ass and need to be ass raped.

02-18-2004, 02:13 AM	#11
DeadFidel Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: This was my wife circa 2002 Posts: 6,760	If you are going to do it mainly for the money, GOOD FUCKING LUCK! My breeder (of German Shepherds) works 20 hour days and just makes a living at it, but again she is into it for the love of the breed and does it right. There are so many other factors and expenses that you did not even mention, like land, travel, AKC politics, etc. It's a tough gig to do correctly.

02-18-2004, 02:22 AM	#12
DeadFidel Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: This was my wife circa 2002 Posts: 6,760	I read that letter a second time...FUCK THAT!!!!! VidVoy and twisty.. Better hope KRL does not read this thread

02-18-2004, 02:58 AM	#14
DeadFidel Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: This was my wife circa 2002 Posts: 6,760	PersianKitty,..Nice research (good job). I hope it will help Kush2.

02-18-2004, 03:06 AM	#15
flashfire ICQ 1 6 7 8 5 3 4 9 2 Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 13,098	too many homeless dogs as it is...please adopt and get others to do the same

02-18-2004, 03:32 AM	#16
wyldblyss Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Buck Starts Here Posts: 5,779	Well aren't those numbers awesome. Too bad they are way off. Now lets get started. Time: 10 dogs will take up most of your time, they need attention, exercise and grooming. Yes, all dogs need to be kept clean, nails trimmed etc. Dogs being bred should be trained, that takes time and money. Also, there is basic clean up of dog shit etc....and man, with 10 dogs you are talking a whole lot of shit....when puppies arrive....you will have shit and piss coming out of your ears. Vet Costs: We have regular shots, regular checkups, then there are health checks for every breeding female/male to make sure they are free of the problems associated with that particular breed (hips, knees, eyes etc.). Expensive and if they don't pass you can't breed them and then you are stuck with the dog or have to find a home for it. If the dog needs a C-section then that can cost anywhere from 1,000 on up. You will find quotes much lower than this, but wait until you get to the vets, the price skyrockets from 400 bucks up to a grand or more with all the ad-ons. In my area, they also charge $60 bucks PER puppy for "assisted delivery". If the puppies at birth need attention, that adds to the price. Then you have your run of the mill vet expenses, mine always end up at the vets for some reason or another during the year. Don't forget dental care and cleanings by the vet and the cost to get females no longer being bred, or because of health unable to be bred fixed. Several hundred there. Food: Breeders should be fed nothing but the highest quality of food, 10 dogs could cost you 800 or more per month to feed them...if you give them high quality treats like greenies, then that can put a nice dent in your budget (greenies can run a buck a piece) If you work outside the home you will need about a month off for each delivery, two weeks before due date until 2 weeks after birth. You have to be there day and night in case there are complications with birth, or one of the puppies running into problems. Cost of ads etc. to sell the pups, plus the time to screen prospective people ads greatly to your time expenditure. Also, if you can't sell a pup or two or 5 what are you going to do with them? Breeders are a TIGHT circle and don't even think about putting them up for sale on the Internet unless your dogs have champion bloodlines, you have a totally amazing setup etc. because they will hound and harass you like no tomorrow...because they will call you a puppy-miller. Females should be at least 2 years old, if not 3 before you breed them, so you will have all these dogs around for a few years before you get any puppies. Females can NOT breed every heat. It is extremely hard on them physically and the number and quality of dogs will go down each litter. Respected breeders will breed their dogs every second heat, some every third. If you breed them and they don't "take" then you have to wait another 6 months until they go in heat again. If you need studs, then that is an additional expense....so is trying to find a stud that has the background you need. Shipping your dog to the stud, or having the stud flown in etc. is more money. Then there is the ongoing problem of what you do when the females can't breed any longer. You have to get them fixed and find them a home. Rehoming an older dog is not easy and you would "owe" that dog a good home, so you can't exactly drop her off at a shelter. On top of all of that is finding the "right" dogs. You buy bargain basement and that is the quality of dogs you will get. The better the bloodline the bigger the price and if you think you can march up to a breeder with dollars in hand and expect them to give you a puppy for breeding you are mistaken. The VAST MAJORITY of high quality dog with backgrounds good enough for breeding are sold on a spay/neuter contract. This means you can NOT breed them. If you think you can just buy the dog and breed it anyway, forget it, dogs sold on this type of contract are registered with that clause meaning NO offspring can be registered. Unregistered dogs do not bring in that much money. Unregistered and people think it isn't purebred. Finding a breeder to give someone with no experience a puppy for breeding would be very difficult....and once they found out you are getting them in large numbers.....then your chances go down. Oh, and don't forget the good old city ordinances. You may have to move. Most cities will not allow you to have 10 dogs at your home, so you may have to buy a kennel outside of the city. This also requires kennel licences, breeders licence, inspections etc. We don't even want to get into neighbors complaining about the barking of 10 dogs etc. Breeding sounds like an instant money maker..it is not...it is expensive, with no guarantees and requires a ton of time, effort, patience and a thick skin. It isn't easy watching a dog give birth to still-born puppies etc. or a puppy with medical problems. The "sick" dogs will be your responsibility forever. The city/county would never allow you to just dump them off for them to take care of every time one isn't fit to be sold. Last edited by wyldblyss; 02-18-2004 at 03:34 AM..

02-18-2004, 03:32 AM	#17
erehwon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: A secure undisclosed location... Posts: 3,759	Good luck, if you are looking for other investment opportunities, I might still have an undeveloped block in East St. Louis Illinois for sale. __________________ Money NEVER $leep$...

02-18-2004, 03:36 AM	#18
raceman Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Now offshore on an island paying a heluva lot less tax than you suckers Posts: 1,064	In a strange way this is one of the nicest threads ive read since joining GFY last year. There is Kush2 debating over an investment and all you guys club together to help out and point him/her in the right direction with some amazing "intel" and facts and to my surprise not one in the thread. GFY never ceases to amaze me And concur with everyone else "dont do it you will lose the $20k RACEMAN __________________ "ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM" <-- "DON'T LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN" General Joe Stiwell ICQ: 213-684-158

02-18-2004, 03:40 AM	#19
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	You all forget the most important thing. You are working with live stock. YOU MUST LOVE YOUR DOGS. If you dont you will never be an succesfull breeder. To charge the prices you are thinking of you need to establish a name and / or reputation. To build a reputation you have to do shows etc. Then you need studs, they cost money. We own some dogs ( champs ) so i think i know what im talking about. __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

02-18-2004, 03:43 AM	#20
kush2 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 495	Everybody, and Persian Kitty especially, I sincerely appreciate your help. One thing that I did not express is that I'm a 21 year old entrepreneur - but an ethical one at that. I currently run both adult and mainstream sites, and I am now into real estate investment / rental properties. From the initial information that I received just a few days ago, top dollar dog breeding sounded like an incredible investment opportunity. After reading all of these posts and from some of my own independent research, I tell you right now that this is not something I will further pursue. It seems like the dogs would not receive the care they deserve from this guy managing them and on top of that in order to do it the "right way," the profit margin would be so low. And I always do thing the right way ;) So once again, thanks, but it looks like I'll be on the lookout for another new venture. And the name's Kush, not kush2 ;) (unable to recover an old gfy password hence the new name) 'Nite everyone! __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

02-18-2004, 03:50 AM	#21
kush2 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 495	Wyldblyss, let me also say a special thanks for your post as well - it was incredibly informative. Somehow I tend to receive good responses whenever I ask for help/information on any board. ;) This guy was seeking my funding because he said it would put him ahead of schedule by 6 months. And it seemed like he was cutting me a great deal for funding him. Well, you have my word I'll use my influence and persuasion to try to dissuade him from his intended course of action. I've only had a dog once in my life (he was run over by a car sadly), but I love the animals and definitely don't want to see them treated badly. What the hell was I thinking about selling 200 puppies a year?!! oh well, thanks again __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

02-18-2004, 03:55 AM	#22
DeadFidel Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: This was my wife circa 2002 Posts: 6,760	Kush, Glad the board helped! GFY is pet friendly

02-18-2004, 04:49 AM	#24
VideoVoyeur So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 2,181	My dogs name is Jasmine Too Wong Foo. She is a pure bred Shar Pei, her father is Shir Du Bang , her grandfather is Down Homes China Souel the first Shar Pei to EVER be registered in AKC as a Shar Pei when they started allowing them to be AKC registered. I paid $4500 for her in 1994, and If I bred her, I would want a very substantial amount of money. I have every single akc paper I ever recieved from her including the breeders number and the breeders Breeders number. But to make a puppy mill with 20 dogs just to crank out puppies, with no papers, and you really dont give 2 shits about the dog is just bullshit, its also illegal.