I wasn't suggesting that it be 'gravy train'. I think that my and your definition of freedom may differ somewhat.

To me, 'freedom' means the ability to pursue the goals I wish to persue without limits. Irrespective of political systems, there are practical limits on my freedom that I'm working to overcome... I work today to earn so that tomorrow I'll have the scratch to no longer HAVE to work. Knowing that my needs will be provided for to an acceptable comfort level even should I decide to totally withdraw from the workforce (to go back to school, say, or to simply walk the earth and absorb its marvels), that to me would be a high degree of freedom.

My concept of freedom isn't a state of 'being free' or 'being unfree' like what some people here seem to fixate on. I look at it from the 'pyramid of needs' perspective... on the lowest levels your food, clothing, shelter and air, moving with more esoteric needs being met as you move on up. The higher up the pyramid you reach, the more freedom you've likely attained... there isn't much freedom in being a wageslave for the basics of life, whereas the people who can contemplate philosophies and spiritual aspects of life obviously are freed from those more base requirements.

I'd consider your description of freedom more as 'liberty', being the limits on your freedom placed on you by other people, as opposed to basic realities of life. Liberty is being able to choose what I want for dinner, freedom would be the ability to survive without food entirely if I so chose.

Yeah, okay, it's pretty abstract. It's 8am here and I reserve the freedom to be a bit random in my observations at this hour of the morning. :winkwink:

Starting this topic I asked only 5 questions. So are you the one who can tell me that answer to all thise questions is "NO!".

true

How about instead you prove to me the answers to those questions are "YES!". You know, since you started the thread and all.

So just re-read your Constitution. BTW, I doubt there is written you are allowed to sell porn. But I could imagine your indignation if it will become forbidden ;)

actually, I think we're pretty close.... but obviously we're both over tired. I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I think cyberxxx is a little confused and is using it all out of context & perspective.

this is the only thing I disagree with.... there is nothing in this world that doesn't have limits. The sky may be the limit, but it's still a limit.

:winkwink:

You are funny one... I'm not a lunatic to answer my OWN QUESTIONS.

it isn't written that "I'm allowed to sell porn".... but it also isn't written that "I am NOT allowed to sell porn." According to you, it IS written that "You are not allowed to openly sell condoms in Wisconsin". Guess what.... that means I can sell porn and you can't sell condoms in Wisconsin. (true or not... it's all hypothetical to me anyway) If.... and it's always an "if".... if someday it is written that "I am not allowed to sell porn", then I won't be selling porn anymore.

why is this concept lost on you?

The answer to the first question is NO.

There was an old law on the books that prohibited married couples from using any form of contraceptive, but it was struck down by the supreme court.

I wouldn't know how to go about proving something isn't a law without reading every damn law on the books for whatever state. All I can say is I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for using, selling, or advertising condoms. Even if there are such laws that doesn't mean anyone pays attention to them or that they are enforced.

It's obvious that he's just a shit disturber with a transparent agenda. There's plenty of shit that could be talked about the US (and really, any country), but he's pretty bad at it. :1orglaugh

Sure... that's why freedom has to be measured in degrees and not as 'got it / dont got it'. Some things (like not having to eat, or being able to instantly teleport myself across the planet, or whatever) represent levels of freedom that are impossible for me to physically accomplish, but there's stuff I *can* accomplish and I'm gonna shoot for those things if I can.

Mind who, who's to say what's 'impossible'? I mean, look at us... we're having a discussion that's bordering on REASONABLE here... it's GFY for fuck sakes! :321GFY

You know cyberxxx, here where I live, in my little subdivision, I am not allowed to park on the street after 10pm. Does that mean I'm less free than the people over on the other side that are allowed to park on the street all night?

Shit yeah. Denied overnight parking? I say start a revolution! :ak47:

Restricting your parking is just another way The Man keeps you down! Next thing you know, they'll be putting up Walk/Don't Walk signs! :mad:

This link is especially for you (if you don't know what Google is): http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-5135...l?tag=nefd_top ;)

Answer to that question is also NO.


"Hours after filing a federal lawsuit against the law's "secret censorship orders," aimed at Internet and backbone providers, two civil liberties groups won a dramatic concession from the Pennsylvania attorney general, who agreed to cease using the orders until the case is heard in November."

from the same article.

Although the law is only a Pennsylvania state statute, it has an international reach. When the Pennsylvania attorney general used it to force MCI to ban access to some sites with suspected child pornography, the company said it had no choice but to block those Internet addresses for all of its North American subscribers.

You may not be aware of this, but one of the primary duties of a government is to create and enforce laws that are deemed to be public interest. Some of these laws are misguided, misapplied, or just outright flawed and need to be struck down.

This law, in my opinion, is one of those laws people could be better off without, but sitting there pointing it out and saying 'it sucks' won't change it. You seem AWFULLY concerned about personal liberties... why don't you put even 1/10th of that energy you waste decrying the negatives into trying to make a change for the better?

Or are you just wallowing in pseudointellectual masturbation in lieu of being able to find a chick to fuck you for free? :Graucho

it's a small example but it holds true from the lowest level to the highest.

Individual:
If you come into my house, you're not going to smoke in here, because that's a rule (law) that I made. I'm the governor, the mayor, and the president of my house, all rolled into one. Don't like the rule? You're FREE to go outside and smoke.

Local:
I can't park on the street after 10pm. That's a rule (law) that my HOA made and I have to follow. I freely opted into that. If I don't like it, I am FREE to move across town where I can park wherever I want for as long as I want.

State:
If you don't like the condom law (if it exists) in Wisconsin, no one is forcing you to stay there. You are FREE to go to Minnesota and sell your condoms. If you stay in Wisconsin, you follow their rules (laws).

Federal:
you get the idea. Don't like the federal rules (laws)? You are FREE to go to some other country and do whatever you want. But that's the one that'll likely put a big dent in your freedom.

The beauty of it is, you are free to do all these things, and you're also free to bitch and complain about it, write a book about it, publish a website about it, lease some cable access time and do a tv show about it, talk on the radio about it, tell your friends about it, start petitions to change it, hell, you can even paint yourself purple and hold a rally in the park about it while dancing on a harpsichord singing Yankee Doodle Dandee and smearing pumpkin pie on your crotch.

Correct, but only when "two civil liberties groups won a dramatic concession", but not before. I don't want to affirm anything here. I just was looking for answers.

There's a niche that hasn't been saturated yet. :thumbsup

As about the child pornography, so it will be better if government will close all the related sites and send the bastards to jail. Filtering of the Internet is not a solution here!

You may well be right about that. My point in pointing that out is it's not like they were trying to block political speech or anything of that nature, they were trying to block friggin' kiddy porn.

Yep, I was hoping this thread will be big. ;)

this thread is pure nonsense and Im angry at myself for bumping it:glugglug

The citizens of Pennsylvania are free to pass any law they like as long as said law does not violate federal law.

Guess what -- they did just that and now the legal challenges in the federal court system will determine if the state law did in fact attempt to supersede federal law.

If so it will be struck down. If not it will stay.

This is how the system works.