Once again 12clicks proves that being beyond stupid is possible.

Bunch of idiots.

Maybe you guys should realize Europe has different countries and different cultures. "Turning into Europe"
Thats the same as saying Russian and Australia are similar.

People who dont have a clue whats happening in other parts of the world shouldnt be opening threads about it.

"...its over, nobody listens to techno"

Look someone made a pic of the world through gregs eyes.

http://www.teenportals.com/america.gif

The only place ever where i paid more than 5 bucks for cigarettes is the US.

I guess you also heard stories that we still live in caves and that all the Dutch wear clogs?

Brilliant!

Some simple facts about living in the Netherlands (that's a country in Europe, for those that don't know):

• I pay €3.30 for a pack of cigarettes (Gauloises, but Marlboro costs about the same)
• Crime is reasonably low
• Health care is good, as are health insurance programs
• No terrorism here
• Teen pregnancy is extremely uncommon
• Great universities, accessible even if you don't have rich parents
• You won't get arrested for peddling porn or selling sex toys

If the weather was better, it'd be perfect :glugglug

The man is right. I am european and when I needed to have my mother's cancer treated The Mayo Clinic in Rochester did what everybody over here claimed was impossible.

They came up with a specialy designed chemo treatment and without all the side effects chemo usualy has the cancer was destroyed.

The reason the USA is ahead on medical treatments is the way their system works. Their specialists have a lot more to loose then ours. If a hospital does not come up with certain treatments investors stop pouring money into the hospital so the presure to perform is high.

Over here it's funded by the government so there is no real presure which makes us walk behind the facts coming out of the USA.

Each system has their upsides and downsides but when it comes to revolutionary treatments the USA is the place to look no doubt in my mind.

And we can smoke weed legally :thumbsup

what are we gonna do? franco un-american



btw,cigarettes in london are 10euro+ from what i remember

When I was poor, I used to just go to the university hospital. University hospitals are always free if you don't make much money. Even if you do make alot, you just tell them you don't. Everybody in the US can get free health care. It's just a matter if knowing where and how. My brother used to even go to the university hospital for his dental work. This was up in Seattle. Don't remember the name of the hospital, but it's the one not too far from the Amazon.com building. Just go over the bridge and up the hill alittle.

Doesn't sound particularly viable for the tens of millions who can't afford health care though.

I guess they can just rot. Right?

Didn't I just say I was poor when doing this. That means I couldn't afford health care. There are ways of getting free healthcare. One of them is what I mentioned.

Why is what I mentioned not viable for the tens of millions who can't afford health care? I would think it would be since it's free.

If tens of millions of people took advantage of this loophole, wouldn't it become a little overwhelmed?

Wrong. Health care is available to any citizen as well as non citizens...via multiple programs.

We all know healthcare is available.

We're talking about high quality free healthcare (or almost free healthcare).

Paid for by taxes.

If the US has that, please point it out to me.

Well that's swell but here in LA or in NY you can't get to the university clinics because the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and PRISON INMATES are clogging up the lines. They get first crack at treatment so that the state or feds don't get sued for some reason.

you guys may have bases but all we need in a war is brains.

:glugglug

Yea, but if everybody got free health care from the government like you mentioned, the same thing would happen to every hospital in the US. At least now it's limited to hospitals that let the universities use them.

There are several reasons for not having the government give out free health care. One is that they already do a poor job with what programs they have out there now. Another is that it means long lines for "everyone at every hospital". I've had to wait at the hospital in Seattle for 5 hours (at 2am) for a emergency I had (not serious). Imagine if all the hospitals had free healthcare.

No such thing as free and high quality in the same sentence. At least not most of the time. There will never be "high quality" health care that is free. Once health care in the US turns free, watch the quality go down the shit hole.

No disagreement there Punkworld. You guys may get taxed high in the Netherlands but it goes to good use. That makes your hard earned money go further especially if you want to invest. Norway and Finland do as well if I recall. Switzerland and Sweden too?

It's about efficiency and care.

Here in the states we fight each other so much, we rarely agree. Soon as we get something good going it gets loused up.

With all the doctors, nurses, teachers in this country we shouldn't have a problem with anything. Yet there are so many spiteful and hateful factions within the general population it's pathetic. I think we have more 'hate groups' per capita than anywhere else in the world. They even have tax exemption if they start a church!

It's not "free" since it's paid by taxes.

In this case I'm meaning "free" as in "you don't need insurance".

You'll find "free" healthcare all across Europe (and other places I'm sure) of a very high quality.

And from what I've heard, what you pay in taxes is a lot less than you would have to pay for the equivalent health insurance in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong about that though.

"Free" healthcare also has the benefit of making private healthcare a lot more affordable too. If you don't believe me - compare prices for private healthcare in the US to private healthcare in other countries.

Just an observation - I don't know if you would agree with this or not:

A lot of countries, especially where tax is put into high quality health care have more of a "for the common good" theme in their Governments.

In the US that doesn't appear to be the case. The national attitude seems to be "I'm doing okay, fuck the rest of you".

Actually you are right. The US is built on either you make it or you don't. The less government the better. If it was the other way, it would be more like communism (which the US is turning more into). Communism is where the government took care of you like a little kid and everybody was supposed to be treated equal. It didn't work out in most countries, because the government got greedy. If you were in a government position, you lived well above the norm.

As far as the free and me believing the quality will go down. Look at how the US government handles everything. Slow and poor quality. The next time you get your drivers license renewed or have a question at the Department Of Motor Vehicles, let me know how great of a service you had.

From what I have heard with the countries that do offer free health care is that some people have to wait weeks or months before they are taken care of. I'm not sure how the quality is in those hospitals, but I heard the wait time before a doctor sees you is outrageous.

...

Be interesting having the u.s more Europeon as appose to the other way around!

Only with really serious stuff.

An awful lot of things are taken care of quickly and professionally.

And if you can afford it private healthcare is a lot more affordable. NOTHING like the $50,000+ you need to pay in the US for operations. That really is ridiculous.

And I understand why people want less Government and the "make it or you don't" way of life, but that's a very hard way to live and not everyone agrees with that.

Having some socialist policies (for example in the EU and in Canada) is a VERY far cry from communism.

It just means that if you're on minimum wage, you're still looked after if something bad happens to you.

Some people will take advantage of this generosity from the Government, but the large majority don't. And the system has checks and balances anyway.

For example - the UK has the National Health Service, but is still a very capitalist country. The two do go together.

:eyecrazy uh don't think so! I'm forever a techno head ever sinceKraftwerk and I don't think I'm alone :winkwink:

One example...in California...the unemployed and the working poor...and even the working poor that have private insurance can obtain a Medi-Cal card via the Medi-Cal program offered in California. For the unemployed...using the Medi-Cal card medical care is 100% free. For the working poor...their will be a token co-pay based upon income. For the working poor with private insurance...whatever their private insurance will not pay Medi-Cal picks up the slack. This is just one example of many available programs and methods for receiving free and near free medical care.

theking:

Just an observation :)

The number of bankrupcties in the US over settling largish health care bills is ... well, obscene. Basically it boils down to "pay the earth" on some insurance premiums (another ripoff) and when they run out, sell your assets to pay the rest.

The average current spending per individual in the US on healthcare is $5400/year. There must be a load of very unheathy people there :-) Seriously.. this is ripped off my pharma corps selling drugs and crap at inflated costs (course we have to have "research money" *g*) with a deliberate no-barring from the Federal government who agreed not to even bargain on their drug purchases from the "dealers" - "We will pay whatever price you ask". That is crazy in any language.

There is probably little wrong with the US healthcare - got plenty good doc's and researchers - but the system is full of greed and ranks not too well on an international scale of readily available healthcare available in many other countries.

BTW.. this ain't any of that cliche "When you're running down my country hoss" crap - I've kinda given that up as a waste of time - I can see the day getting closer when all that may sink in. :-) There is far more to be concerned with than a load of BS patriotism.

Medical care in the US is free enterprise...and costs an exorbitant amount. One of the reasons it is exorbitant (just one) is because of the expense of providing care for those that cannot pay or can pay little. Those losses are made up by charging a exorbitant amount for those that can pay...it is the way of free enterprise...pass the cost along to the consumer.

I personally favor legislation that requires all employers...big and small...to provide health insurance to all employees at a reasonable cost...and adust the economic impact accordingly. Another thing I favor legislation on is requiring all employers to have a retirement fund 401K or something similar...that is portable from job to job. These two things have been discussed throughout my lifetime...and unfortunately may be discussed until hell freezes over.

I am not in favor of most government run programs...as the government...at the local level...state level and federal level have poor track records when it comes to managing programs...so I prefer free enterprise being involved in health care and retirement over government sponsored program.

theKing:

Pretty much agree with ya on that!

One bit that does not stand up is :

"One of the reasons it is exorbitant (just one) is because of the expense of providing care for those that cannot pay or can pay little. "

How come I am lending guys money to pay for healthcare in the US?? I also know a few who just cannot get health insurance (cos of "exisiting conditions") at any reasonable price.

The fact is other countries often provide healthcare "free" (via taxes that at very close to the tax rates of the US) and there are also other countries (just like where I am now) - that provides free healthcare of a very high standard, with no waiting lists or crap to all - even visitors on vacation!

BTW... There are a couple of US folks working here.. one, where there are four in the family. He ended up in hospital for a short time and was stunned that he was not charged for this service :-) He then took out some private healthcare policy for all the family that costs about $240/year and includes all "pre-existing conditions", dental care and a load of other stuff:-) When other countries can do this, (and have an international index ranking of healthcare greater than the US or many Euro countries), it sure does not look too hot when high tax regime countries cannot even manage this - and I ain't just talking about the US :-)

You are lending money because you choose to...not because they cannot get health care. Medical care is available to all that require it. It is very expensive to get medical insurance with a "serious" pre exisiting condition...and can be difficult to find an insurer. The key of course is do not wait until you become seriously ill to purchase insurance.

You surely understand that the US is a capitalistic society based upon free enterprise and the majority of Americans are basically against government run socialistic programs.

FYI medical care in the US is not something that anyone has to pay "for" but instead pay "at". Payments are acceptable based upon ones abilitity to pay.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

I was talking with my grandmother and dad about health care over christmas.

My dad had gone to Canada for business and he brought up how they had healthcare for all the citizens, not just the ones who could afford it.

My grandma says "well yah, but if you have to wait for up to 6 months for an operation, then whats the point?"

I responded with "Yah, you may have to wait a bit, usually just a few weeks, but at least you are going to get it. If you can't afford it here, you don't get it at all."



I don't see how anyone could be so self-centered that they can fail to see that elderly are having to choose between paying for medications or paying the rent. That most small businesses can no longer afford to give healthcare to their employees because the price for a plan is so expensive.

And whats even more criminal is the fact that HMO's will fight you when you need the healthcare. I almost died of viral pneumonia when I was 11 because my HMO didn't want to admit me to the hospital and wanted to keep on bacterial antibiotics which had done nothing. I am lucky my mother is a nurse and had a doctor friend who was willing to put his license on the line to get me admitted, else I wouldn't be typing this today.

Not to mention that doctors in this country are leaving their practices in swarms because HMO's take up to a year or more just to pay a bill. (Among other things)

All of you who think that having FREE/AFFORDABLE healthcare for everybody is a bad idea should be ashamed of yourselves.

Okay, maybe I'm outside of the box but in my years I've never been out of work. Never needed hospital care ( cept cavities), always put people to work solved problems etc. Never been on welfare, no illegitimate kids running around. I am not and never have been a burden to the govt. or taxpayer. Actually I've sacrificed too much to them.

Yet, each day of my adult life has been fighting criminal assholes on all levels. Negligence by government and a bunch of stupid shit no one should put up with.

I've got no criminal record not even a parking ticket but each day I have to go through hoops just to get things done.

It's soooo stupid.

That's why when you guys talk about health care here in the states or 'services' you should see what I see. I live near 3 colleges that do free treatment but the lines are fulla people who aren't supposed to be here in the first fucking place. We spend who knows how much money on inmates who's victims got fucked and are getting double fucked by paying taxes to pay for the health care of the sons of bitches that ripped them off in the first place?

Problem here in the U.S. is 'priorities'. When the decent citizen is at the bottom of the 'priority' level that's like lighting your own ass on fire and then calling the fire dept.

So when I said originally is the U.S. turning into Europe it means simply that we are so fucked up with internal fighting that we'll need someone else to come over here to kick ass and straighten things out.

nah I think the USA is actually turning into mexico :o)

The gov. paid my $10.000 surgery on a private hospital in sweden. Very high quality - I just had to press a button and a sexy nurse would come and inject more morphine.. had a private room, tv everything.. it was pretty nice and the morphine was great.

Greg B:

:thumbsup

Bottom line is.. irrespective of where you hail from:

Do you want to stay alive and have medical treatment without selling your assets?

Do you want a decent education and one for your children which don't mean they end up bankrupt in the process?

It ain't about "missles" and "Mars" - it's all about the quality of life right now...

.nihilist:

That morphine is NICE stuff when you really need it!!! :winkwink:

... what he said.