UK Law Re Streaming Video - GoFuckYourself.com

abdab_1 · 11-20-2003, 03:29 AM

Can any shed any light on this please, a client of my has spoke with his lawyer and the lawyer is not really 100% sure

Any input would be well received, like can you host from etc?

This could be really bad news for me and a lot of other people. Not funny!

Section 12 of the Video Recordings Act, 1984 states that it's an offence to "supply" videos outside the BBFC regulations.

The Act was written before the Internet but the BBFC has recently updated the Regulations.

The regulations say that, "supply" of R18 (that means hard core) videos is strictly limited to the 90 licenced shops. There is a slight lack of clarity about whether streaming via the internet is acceptable - but, probably not.
I'm very keen to hear from other people in the industry....
Is it illegal to offer viewing (via streaming) or downloading of R18 videos over the internet.

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 03:53 AM

It's still not technically legal to offer any porn over the net from the UK - it's simply not been tested in a court of law and seems to be an area the authorities are happy to leave alone providing you are sensible. They probably feel that unless you are showing sick shit a successful prosecution would be difficult at best given the current tollerence for porn in the UK. Even the more extreme top shelf magazines go a lot further than they used to.

Most of UK Internet porn law is a very grey area not just video.

Sarah_Jayne · 11-20-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

Most of UK Internet porn law is a very grey area not just video.

yes, it is much easier at the moment for the gov't to turn a blind eye than to go through the hell of making it outrightly legal. So, unless you are jumping up and down and waving kiddy or animal porn under their noses they are going to leave you alone.

Still, I don't host a damn thing in the UK.

chemicaleyes · 11-20-2003, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
I don't host a damn thing in the UK.

wouldn't even think about it

abdab_1 · 11-20-2003, 06:27 AM

Thanks for the input

radical · 11-20-2003, 07:22 AM

Yep me neither I host all of my stuff in the states!!!

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by radical
Yep me neither I host all of my stuff in the states!!!

So do I for a few reasons but it is worth mentioning that makes absolutely no difference as far as the law is concerned. They consider you to have published the material from the UK (ie where you uploaded it) and not from the states.

Either way it still seems fairly 'safe' at the moment as long as you are sensible. If ever they do clampdown and decide that after all it isn't legal, there's plenty of very big and/or better known sites to go after first. Rightly so their main concern at this time is beast, scat, and especially cp and other sick shit rather than concenting adults screwing. General opinion is that even were they to try and prosecute a generic adult site they would have at least as much chance of failing as winning. Given those odds the CPS will drop a case every time. For the most part we have the BBFC losing in court a few years back to thank for this. It's made the UK as a country far more tolerant towards porn from a legal standpoint.

Erotica at Olympia last weekend was a great case in point. At no time in the past (ie before a few years ago) could you have entered a BIG event open to the public and watched a movie on several large screens featuring a girl getting double-penetration up the ass in close-up then spurting the spunk out afterwards. A few years back you couldn't even buy it to watch it in your own home. Now you can see it at one of the biggest convention centers in London at a major public event. Quite a turnaround

Sarah_Jayne · 11-20-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

Erotica at Olympia last weekend was a great case in point. At no time in the past (ie before a few years ago) could you have entered a BIG event open to the public and watched a movie on several large screens featuring a girl getting double-penetration up the ass in close-up then spurting the spunk out afterwards. A few years back you couldn't even buy it to watch it in your own home. Now you can see it at one of the biggest convention centers in London at a major public event. Quite a turnaround

Really? Then really there isn't much to worry about and if they ever do start clamping down having an EU passport and cheap eurostars might make it sensible to think about a part of the year relocation. I would rather not but hey you have to do what you have to do.

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

Really? Then really there isn't much to worry about and if they ever do start clamping down having an EU passport and cheap eurostars might make it sensible to think about a part of the year relocation. I would rather not but hey you have to do what you have to do.

We're already thinking about it. The call of the mountains and close proximity to the slopes is too strong to resist. Get the right part of Spain and you even have the slopes 30 mins one way and the beach 30 mins the other :D

chemicaleyes · 11-20-2003, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

So do I for a few reasons but it is worth mentioning that makes absolutely no difference as far as the law is concerned. They consider you to have published the material from the UK (ie where you uploaded it) and not from the states.

Either way it still seems fairly 'safe' at the moment as long as you are sensible. If ever they do clampdown and decide that after all it isn't legal, there's plenty of very big and/or better known sites to go after first. Rightly so their main concern at this time is beast, scat, and especially cp and other sick shit rather than concenting adults screwing. General opinion is that even were they to try and prosecute a generic adult site they would have at least as much chance of failing as winning. Given those odds the CPS will drop a case every time. For the most part we have the BBFC losing in court a few years back to thank for this. It's made the UK as a country far more tolerant towards porn from a legal standpoint.

Erotica at Olympia last weekend was a great case in point. At no time in the past (ie before a few years ago) could you have entered a BIG event open to the public and watched a movie on several large screens featuring a girl getting double-penetration up the ass in close-up then spurting the spunk out afterwards. A few years back you couldn't even buy it to watch it in your own home. Now you can see it at one of the biggest convention centers in London at a major public event. Quite a turnaround

What is the standpoint for uploading from say France if any different from the UK?

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chemicaleyes
What is the standpoint for uploading from say France if any different from the UK?

I would have thought so but only IF you can prove it, although obviously I'm very far away from being an expert, I simply try to follow the current UK laws and trends closely and have done for a few years.

My memory gets worse with age but if I remember rightly the only successful convictions a while back now, were hosted in the US and uploaded from the UK. They were beast and scat sites so obviously regarded as obscene by the courts and were hosted on US servers. However (again this could be wrong as memory is hazy) the prosecution was successful simply because they were uploaded from the UK and considered as being published from the UK.

However - unless you live in France or are peddling the sick/extreme stuff why worry about uploading from France? UK is still pretty much OK with porn that keeps within limits. The only time to worry that it's otherwise is if there's a sudden change in the climate.

chemicaleyes · 11-20-2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

I would have thought so but only IF you can prove it, although obviously I'm very far away from being an expert, I simply try to follow the current UK laws and trends closely and have done for a few years.

My memory gets worse with age but if I remember rightly the only successful convictions a while back now, were hosted in the US and uploaded from the UK. They were beast and scat sites so obviously regarded as obscene by the courts and were hosted on US servers. However (again this could be wrong as memory is hazy) the prosecution was successful simply because they were uploaded from the UK and considered as being published from the UK.

However - unless you live in France or are peddling the sick/extreme stuff why worry about uploading from France? UK is still pretty much OK with porn that keeps within limits. The only time to worry that it's otherwise is if there's a sudden change in the climate.

Ofcourse I'm not peddling the kind of sick/extreme sick shit - just have property in both countries & wondered

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chemicaleyes
Ofcourse I'm not peddling the kind of sick/extreme sick shit - just have property in both countries & wondered

Wasn't really trying to suggest that - more just make the point it's probably not worth the effort.

Paul Markham · 11-20-2003, 09:32 AM

As the only guy here who has been prosecuted and lost under this law i will tell you what it's about because few here know diddly squat.

Any video, film, DVD, CD, Phone Message, Internet site, featuring a MOVING IMAGE, being offered for sale or published in the UK needs a British Board of Film Control certificate. The exclusions are News, Documentaries and educational. But not in the area of adult.

So if you are selling or publishing a film of a butterfly flitting from flower to flower you need the certificate, unless you have some expert giving a commentary on the wonders of butterflies.

It has NOTHING to do with porn and was brought in because the UK definition of porn was so wishy-washy. You don?t have the license you are breaking the law. Simple.

Six years ago the BBFC came out with R18, which allows LICENSED SEX SHOPS to sell a harder version than previous, the broad line is, IF IT?S LEGAL IN THE US IT?S LEGAL IN THE UK. But you still need to get a certificate.

So you cannot sell an unlicensed film on the Internet site hosted in the UK. You can however host one in Holland and ?edit? the site in the UK. You can even be a UK based company, but it has to be served from outside the UK.

A video legal in another EEC country is legal to send to the UK and does not need a BBFC certificate.

For the purpose of the show at Olympia, they apply for a sex shop license for the duration of the show.

Now you know why I'm so happy where I am.

Quote:

For the most part we have the BBFC losing in court a few years back to thank for this. It's made the UK as a country far more tolerant towards porn from a legal standpoint.

The BBFC have never taken anyone to court. That is left to the local council and the Trading Standards dept.

This law has nothing to do with obscenety and was brought about to make it illegal to sell an uncertificated video. They then regulate what get's a certificate. Fines are $30K per title or up to two years in jail.

New Guy from UK · 11-20-2003, 02:41 PM

Hello Charly,

Thanks for the thorough input. And sorry to know that you got the rough end of the system in the past. Must have been a pain.

Can I clear up a couple of points .....

1) If the films have been certified as R18, are uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server that's not in the UK, is there any written legislation that gives clarity or certainty that the Trading Standards or another aurthority won't come after you?

2) Am I right to believe that if the film hasn't been qualified by the BBFC, is uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server outside the UK .... you're breaking the law?

3) Is country of incorporation of the company that pays for the hosting of any importance in this ?

Many thanks for your input,
James

ldinternet · 11-20-2003, 02:56 PM

This may be of interest to some of you...
http://www.taboo.co.uk/Main-Dvd.htm

"According to the Trading Standards we are not allowed to sell, via the UK, R18 Videos and DVDs in anything other than our shop. However, any other country in the European Union is free to supply UK citizens via post, internet or mail order with R18 films as well as films that have not passed through our censors and thus could contain anything, and what's more they are not breaking the law. If this sounds crazy to you then you are not the only one.

"We believe this to be an unfair law and one that breaks several EU, human rights and unfair trading laws.

"If we fail in the UK courts to resolve this matter we fully intend to take our case to the European Courts."

Tipsy · 11-20-2003, 03:34 PM

Sorry Charly. Whether you've been prosecuted or not I'll disagree. Uploading or 'editing' to a server outside of the UK is NO safeguard.

Also you're waffling on about R18 videos. While the theory is that streaming movies may be considered to require classification as far as I'm aware this has never been tested. Again, until tested in court it is still very murky. If you know of any prosecutions for online movies such as mpegs, streaming etc that aren't beast/scat/extreme related then I'd be interested to read about them and very much stand corrected on that point.

Paul Markham · 11-21-2003, 01:22 AM

1) If the films have been certified as R18, are uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server that's not in the UK, is there any written legislation that gives clarity or certainty that the Trading Standards or another aurthority won't come after you?

Trading Standards are concerned with matters regarding shopping, that what you buy is legal, merchantable quality and safe, etc. This only covers outlets in their region. A council in London can't go after a shop in Birmingham, so will not be worried about what is coming from Amsterdam.

You can publish produce porn in the UK and sell it overseas without their involvement. That product can legally come back into the UK, but can't be sold in the UK. The only problem you have is with Customs who may stop you at the border and obscenity laws. If the movie is "Obscene" then you can get prosecuted and as I said if it is within normal US guidelines you are safe.

2) Am I right to believe that if the film hasn't been qualified by the BBFC, is uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server outside the UK .... you're breaking the law?

No you are not, it's being published from the country the server is in and is subject to that countries laws. You are breaking the law if you upload it to a UK server, even if you are a licensed sex shop. Trading Standards are currently going after companies with licensed sex shops for selling tapes mail order.

3) Is country of incorporation of the company that pays for the hosting of any importance in this ?

Don't know. Best to ask a lawyer.

Quote:

Sorry Charly. Whether you've been prosecuted or not I'll disagree. Uploading or 'editing' to a server outside of the UK is NO safeguard.

Why not? As I said this is a law reguarding selling/trading. If you are just uploading where does it break the law regarding having a BBFC certificate?

This is about a law that was created so the control of what was being published was passed from the "Obscenity" laws to "Trading Standards" of whether it is licensed or not. They then set guidelines for what can get a certificate and in one fell swoop they have introduced "Censorship" A film may be perfectly legal, but it still has to be licensed. There is no defense, you either have the license or do not.

To sell R18 movies (hardcore porn) you need to do this via a licensed sex shop across the counter. Delivering them, transporting them, producing them is not covered by this law.

Tipsy
It does not need testing in court. If you are selling or publishing, within the UK, an unlicensed film you are breaking the law. If you are selling an R18 movie within the UK in any way other than via a licensed sex shop you are breaking the law. It was written that way and that is it. Does not need testing trust me.

Now whether the Trading Standards department of your local council has time to get around to you is another matter. I operated for 6 years, making half a million most years before they knocked on my door. But it still meant that for six years I was selling via mail order illegal videos, just got away with it. ;)

DVTimes · 12-09-2003, 08:06 PM

Just an update on this........

The latest setup is 3g mobile phones.

It will be interesting to see if people start to send each other small porn files from phone to phone in the UK as this is an offence.

One would have thought that sending each other video files from mobile to mobile (porn or not) must be an offence (in the uk). I wonder if anyone involved with mobile phones has thought of this or not?

Sarah_Jayne · 12-10-2003, 08:35 AM

it is always weird when I start reading a thread only to find out I have already replied ages ago.

abdab_1 · 12-10-2003, 08:42 AM

lol

there was an interesting post on a UK board about video phones, as in the UK you need to pass the censorship laws yet with these phones you can send video. The point was surely this is illegal also yet 3g are allowed to do it mmmm

11-20-2003, 03:29 AM	#1
abdab_1 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 425	UK Law Re Streaming Video Can any shed any light on this please, a client of my has spoke with his lawyer and the lawyer is not really 100% sure Any input would be well received, like can you host from etc? This could be really bad news for me and a lot of other people. Not funny! Section 12 of the Video Recordings Act, 1984 states that it's an offence to "supply" videos outside the BBFC regulations. The Act was written before the Internet but the BBFC has recently updated the Regulations. The regulations say that, "supply" of R18 (that means hard core) videos is strictly limited to the 90 licenced shops. There is a slight lack of clarity about whether streaming via the internet is acceptable - but, probably not. I'm very keen to hear from other people in the industry.... Is it illegal to offer viewing (via streaming) or downloading of R18 videos over the internet. __________________ <p><a href="http://support.nochex.com/adult/" target="_blank"> <img height="60" src="http://support.nochex.com/web/gfx/adult_anim_cards.gif"width="120 " border="0"></a></p> Convert All Your Traffic!

11-20-2003, 03:53 AM	#2
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	It's still not technically legal to offer any porn over the net from the UK - it's simply not been tested in a court of law and seems to be an area the authorities are happy to leave alone providing you are sensible. They probably feel that unless you are showing sick shit a successful prosecution would be difficult at best given the current tollerence for porn in the UK. Even the more extreme top shelf magazines go a lot further than they used to. Most of UK Internet porn law is a very grey area not just video. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

11-20-2003, 06:27 AM	#5
abdab_1 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 425	Thanks for the input __________________ <p><a href="http://support.nochex.com/adult/" target="_blank"> <img height="60" src="http://support.nochex.com/web/gfx/adult_anim_cards.gif"width="120 " border="0"></a></p> Convert All Your Traffic!

11-20-2003, 07:22 AM	#6
radical Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Bonnie Scotland Posts: 2,876	Yep me neither I host all of my stuff in the states!!! __________________ ICQ: 166108967

11-20-2003, 02:41 PM	#15
New Guy from UK Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1	Hello Charly, Thanks for the thorough input. And sorry to know that you got the rough end of the system in the past. Must have been a pain. Can I clear up a couple of points ..... 1) If the films have been certified as R18, are uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server that's not in the UK, is there any written legislation that gives clarity or certainty that the Trading Standards or another aurthority won't come after you? 2) Am I right to believe that if the film hasn't been qualified by the BBFC, is uploaded from the UK by a UK company to a server outside the UK .... you're breaking the law? 3) Is country of incorporation of the company that pays for the hosting of any importance in this ? Many thanks for your input, James __________________ New Guy ....

11-20-2003, 02:56 PM	#16
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	This may be of interest to some of you... http://www.taboo.co.uk/Main-Dvd.htm "According to the Trading Standards we are not allowed to sell, via the UK, R18 Videos and DVDs in anything other than our shop. However, any other country in the European Union is free to supply UK citizens via post, internet or mail order with R18 films as well as films that have not passed through our censors and thus could contain anything, and what's more they are not breaking the law. If this sounds crazy to you then you are not the only one. "We believe this to be an unfair law and one that breaks several EU, human rights and unfair trading laws. "If we fail in the UK courts to resolve this matter we fully intend to take our case to the European Courts."

11-20-2003, 03:34 PM	#17
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	Sorry Charly. Whether you've been prosecuted or not I'll disagree. Uploading or 'editing' to a server outside of the UK is NO safeguard. Also you're waffling on about R18 videos. While the theory is that streaming movies may be considered to require classification as far as I'm aware this has never been tested. Again, until tested in court it is still very murky. If you know of any prosecutions for online movies such as mpegs, streaming etc that aren't beast/scat/extreme related then I'd be interested to read about them and very much stand corrected on that point. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

12-09-2003, 08:06 PM	#19
DVTimes xxx Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: UK Posts: 31,547	Just an update on this........ The latest setup is 3g mobile phones. It will be interesting to see if people start to send each other small porn files from phone to phone in the UK as this is an offence. One would have thought that sending each other video files from mobile to mobile (porn or not) must be an offence (in the uk). I wonder if anyone involved with mobile phones has thought of this or not? __________________ The Affiliate Program

12-10-2003, 08:35 AM	#20
Sarah_Jayne Now with more Jayne Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 40,077	it is always weird when I start reading a thread only to find out I have already replied ages ago.

12-10-2003, 08:42 AM	#21
abdab_1 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 425	lol there was an interesting post on a UK board about video phones, as in the UK you need to pass the censorship laws yet with these phones you can send video. The point was surely this is illegal also yet 3g are allowed to do it mmmm __________________ <p><a href="http://support.nochex.com/adult/" target="_blank"> <img height="60" src="http://support.nochex.com/web/gfx/adult_anim_cards.gif"width="120 " border="0"></a></p> Convert All Your Traffic!