I understand, theres only one sponsor I know for a fact doesn't shave and thats because I have been given access to their tracking system - thats about the only way to do it. And even then people would complain that it was a fake admin area or something lol. I'd rather get someone impartial with proven credibility from gfy to look at an admin area than a group.

OK so lets go after the creators of PERL, PHP, C, hahahahahahahahahaha, html etc because they made the programming language available for people to write tools to shave. Lets see how far we can dig this down. I know lets sue the parents of the guys who created said languagages for bringing them into the world so that they could create a language that allowed people to create applications that might fraud someone.

You're reaching so hard man....

I will say this one more time. I would contact the company and have that feature taken out, the shave feature. You are just asking for big problems. It's not worth it 2 some of these companies, they make big $$ and don't need the problems

I think we should sue Adam & Eve :helpme

Adtrackplus might be good software, I've never used it but I'm assuming it does what it does in the best way possible (I'm really assuming the best here).

However the shaving function is a separate issue. It does not involve the effectiveness of the program but the problem that arises with one specific feature, specifically designed for only ONE use: Fraud.

Assisting in a bad deed, in my eyes, is as bad as actually committing the deed. A drug dealer is guilty of selling illegal drugs, but just as guilty are the people who supplied, shipped and distributed the drugs to the dealers.

Competition is fierce and to keep your head above water it's almost impossible not to include a shave function. But this doesn't change the nature of the deed, which is wrong. Shaving is fraud and complying with requests to commit fraud is being an accessory to this crime.

I'm afraid there are no two ways of seeing this. Building a shave function is inexcusable, although understandable in a climate where shaving is silently accepted.

One thing to remember is this though: The source of this problem is with the programs that shave. There have been mentioned numerous ways of detecting shaving that we can use to discover those programs that shave. We as an industry need to either make this known or stop sending traffic to those kind of programs.

Ultimately, the validation of shaving is given by us, the webmasters. As long as we're promoting the programs that shave, we're keeping them alive and feeding into the phenomenon. As soon as we stop given this bad signal, and demand for honest business practices, shaving sponsors will be abondened and either

- Go out of business
- Or be forced to change their business model and stop shaving

In the end, it's up to the webmasters.

yes sir:thumbsup

I think it should be blindingly obvious to tell from my posts in this thread that I think using software that has a shaving feature doesn't equal using it to shave.

It's not good that MPA2 has that feature. Quite frankly it sucks.
MPA2 *IS* synonymous with cascading however.

you sir are funny.. sure if you create a tool with the tool 2 do fraud.. you get to go to jail

I'm not reaching for anything , i am simply using your thinking and taking it one step further. Lets continue to blame the people who created the tools. And it could keep strething out to different areas.

great post.

wow some of you people are really fired up about this.

get the sand out of your panties ladies.

Are you sure about that? I'm not a lawyer but wouldn't you have to have proof of a crime committed? Wouldnt someone have to be victimized in some way shape or form? Sure maybe if the affiliate program was actually used to commit fraud, but if it wasnt? Just because the feature is there does not have any legal ramifications. And do you really think people would go after the software creator vs. the person who actually committed the fraud?

I got fucked on some content purchases by MagicMan, and shit never happened with that. So I highly doubt too many people are gonna get their panties in a bunch over some guys software app. They would be more apt to go after the person running the affiliate software.

Another goofy analogy. Perl, PHP, C, etc all have a wide variety of legitimate uses.

What's the legitimate use of the shaver?

I'm honest, so I don't need all that crap. CCBill is totally legit too.

If you think I'm only criticizing those who create the software, then you haven't been really reading my posts. Program operators who wish to defraud their affiliates contact a guy like wayne. Wayne provides them with the tool to fulfill their goal. How is wayne any better than those who requested the tool with which to screw people over?????

Good post and you are entitled to say that creating the feature is just as bad as using it, where I disagree. (Although I dont think I would add the feature myself, I am just stating my opinions in this thread).

Anyhow the rest I agree with you on 100%. It is our individual responsibility to police our own income and income sources. If someone isnt converting SWITCH as you have stated. Everyone is dwelling on Ad Track Plus instead of taking the fact of shaving by the horns and working with great programs that they trust.

yep

I know if I were using any one of these programs, I'd be dam sure that feature wasn't in my copy. I've seen how these guys work, the state Att. Generals work. They will one day go after some people, after we are in Porn, would makegreat headlines

Yes they do , and way to take my post out of context :) I was replying to DTK's statement that we should go after people that provide the tools. An affiliate program can be used for a wide variety of things to. Just because it has a shave feature doesnt mean the affiliate program isnt useful.

My statement was to show that saying its people who provide the tools are at fault, is not a good way to place the blame, because the blame can continue on down the line.

There is a world of difference between creating tools that have legit uses and can possibly be used for illegal reasons and knowingly creating a tool that has zero legit uses and one purpose only, that purpose being to commit fraud.

Anyways, I'm done. :) Take it easy.

We look at things differently. I wouldnt blame the guy who wrote the software as I had no interraction with him. He isnt the one who intentionally tried to screw me over. I would go after the person that kept money out of my bank acct. Now you can argue he did that indirectly, but to me its not his fault its the program I was promoting that cheated me, and my own fault for using the program without doing my research first.

you don't make any sence, this is like making a nucleur bomb, putting the bomb switch in sadam husane's hand and saying "we gave you this just for shits and giggles, don't use it"

If there is a legitimate use for the shave feature, I sure cant think of it. You cant really compare this to guns, bongs or cars that go 220 mph as for all of those things you can pass the straight face test and say that they are legal legitimate uses for all. But a software feature that allows shaving---hmmm--- what exactly could that be used for except defrauding webmasters?

The USA is such a litigation friendly society, one of these days there will be lawsuits and the bright light of the discovery process will shine into the dark areas of the Pay per signup programs. When that day comes, the programmers will be served on the same day as the sponsers.

You too man :)

The simple fact of the matter is that shaving / cheating etc has been around for a long time. This thread nor any other thread is really going to stop it. Each person has their own opinion. Personally I think Wayne is a standup guy for disclosing the option was there. If someone wants the feature taken out of their copy, im sure wayne would remove it.

Its up to the webmasters who promote these programs to keep the program in check and to make sure the fraud word doesnt come up.

Yes, we do look at things differently. While you might not blame the guy who wrote software with a fraud module in it, I believe the law enforcement authorities would consider that programmer to be an accessory to fraud.

here here:thumbsup

No thats not what I said, how you got that out of what I was talking about I have no clue.

Again you took my post out of context, it was in response to DTK's post of blaming people for creatnig the tools. It was taking things one step further.

Anyhow, keep on keeping on :)

Yes they will

Please stop taking me out of context.....I believe both parties in the matter are similarly culpable.

There is an easy fix to this...everyone promote partnership programs. Hmm. then the shave factor is reduced greatly if not eliminated, but pay per signup is quick easy money. Oh the drama.

Yeah that sucks doesnt it :) It really wasnt out of context though, I was just greatly exaggerating your thought :)

AcidMax, give it the fuck up man. Your buddy put in a feature for people who want to commit fraud. What do you think they are gonna do with it if they ask for it? :1orglaugh

the argument that just because the feature is there doesn't mean they will use it is ignorant.

if we keep accepting this, shaving will continue. We need to take a hard line.

it's just too easy to for a person to decide i need a little extra cash this week so soactivate it for X amount of time

greed is rampant and i would not trust anyone in this industry that has a shave function installed i dont give a shit about their reputation.

http://www.whatareweswallowing.frees...20%20sand1.jpg

Well if you insist, with that informative post I have no other option.

I hope sponosrs that shave get into a car accident in the coming weeks.

Maybe it's time for some regulation in this area
http : // www . consumer.gov/sentinel/

All new regulations start somewhere. Shaving would basically fall under a "work at home scheme" and/or "internet con".

How many complaints do you think it would take before they got serious about it. How many sponsors/programmers would want the gov breathing down their necks.



Accept it or Change it

I can only speak for the UK here, but if, for example, a programmer produced some software that allowed a stock trader to commit monetary fraud, the programmer would find his ass in jail pretty quick.

A shave option has no legitimite function other than to commit fraud. In the UK the programmer would be an accessory. Period.

Sometimes I wished I lived in the US just so I could become rich, there are so many law suits in this industry just waiting to happen.

ture , very true

i sale pirate copies of adtrack plus.

i cant take credit for this quote..but i thought it was needed to be said.....
"Most people limit their shaving to when they shower some people do it all the time"

:))