Whether you are being forced to say it or not isn't the issue. The issue is that the government endorses the current version which includes the phrase "under god"

My dad was sent home for not kissing the Bishop's ring etc..etc..etc...LOL

'The issue is that the government endorses the current version which includes the phrase "under god" '


and which religion is that endorsing

You're missing the point. They aren't supposed to endorse ANY religion.

The interesting thing about this is as I was reading this thread our local news reported that the supreme court is currently hearing arguments about this very subject. Our REPUBLICAN legislators passed a law stating kids must say GOD in the pledge of allegiance.

What religion exactly is the govt endorsing?

Now see that's what I don't agree with. HOwever I don't think the wording needs to be changed. It should only be optional.

I thought thats why this thread was started.

Are you guys really saying you didnt know this was being talked about?

I thought thats why Eros made this.

:helpme

Unfortunately, THATS not how teachers and the people pushing for this think.

They want their GOD everywhere, like dictators want their picture.

"Allegiance" and "God", especially in combination with any State, sound like propaganda and a teaching of culture.. suspect....

I can't think of anything I ever swore allegiance to in my life and have no desire to. As for God, each to their own personal beleifs - this has nothing to do with any "country" or "state".

50

It is why I posted this...I in fact posted a link to an article in the beginning of the thread :)

<- Michael, Ginas boyfriend,
hijacking her account to reply to this thread.



It is endorsing religion. (god)
The sub-category is irrelevant. (catholic, jew, islam, etc)

Religionists can't seem to comprehend what it means to not have any religion/god-character. Infact, religionists seem to be better at respecting people of other faiths, than they are at respecting people of no faith.

The non-religious don't want to participate in pro-god propaghanda.
(my high-school tried to suspend me for refusing to participate)
Furthermore, we do not want the lies that have haunted humanity for the past several thousand years, hindering scientific progress, to be propagated in the public educational system.

I believe in "God", or a supreme being.

However, I agree there is NO law saying that children are forced to say the Pledge.

I remember in school, there were Jehovah's Witnesses that simply left the room (even a home room teacher I had) while other's said the Pledge of Allegiance. It was never an issue, they were never offended. It was THEIR choice and no one criticized them or were offended that they didn't recite this.

The majority of America does believe in God. No law promotes or discredits any formed religion and that IS the law, but the law also says we have the right to believe in and practice what we want. Be it gnostic or agnostic.

Although, I don't believe the non-believers should necessarily impose their beliefs upon believers. Just because THEY do not believe in God, why should those that do, be silenced? If you do not agree with how something is worded or what it stands for, you have the right to not support it and not praise it. Being forced to make atheists happy, is no better than God believers being forced to NOT practice their religious beliefs.

The Pledge of Allegiance, is not a law. And reciting it perfectly, also isn't. If you prefer to not say "Under God", omit that part. No one is stopping you, but don't dare try to stop the ones that want it included, because it is our right, just as much as it is your right not to.

I also think prayer should be allowed in school. Save the separation of church and state for someone that cares ok? Because I didn't say that every child should be forced to pray, but I do think they should be ALLOWED to. Maybe a 21st century version of prayer time, called "Meditation Time" or something to that effect. I think taking 20 or 30 minutes during the day, for children to clear their head and relax or get in touch with their spiritual side or emotions, would be healthy, as opposed to the constant pressure they face these days. If they choose not to pray to a God, so be it... they can do whatever they wish with their time, but the ones that want to, SHOULD be allowed to. And not on their lunch/recess time, because that's a different type of free time that shouldn't be associated with meditating.

On that note, if you support omitting God from the government, you are a hypocrite, because you are forcing your beliefs upon others. The way it is now, nothing is being forced, you always have the right to skip words that don't pertain to you.

:2 cents:

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-...-PLEDGE-DC.jpg

President George W. Bush, who has called the appeals court ruling "ridiculous," is seen reciting the pledge with schoolchildren in Nashville, Tennessee.

:thumbsup

OK there's no reason for it to be there. Really, what's the purpose?

I think it's more an issue with money, etc. The government is supposed to represent the people. We live in a secular society with a secular government. We allow freedom of religion, including atheism just like we allow freedom to assemble, even the KKK. It wouldn't be right for the government to put anti-KKK symbols on their money just because most people don't support them.

It would have been more of an issue if the words had already been in there, but the fact that they were added by religious fanatics makes them pretty much void as far as I'm concerned.

On another note I was in high school when 9/11 happened. After that, everyone in the school had to stop, remove their hats and say the pledge in the morning, even if they were in the hallways. I didn't feel like doing that once so a few teachers got really pissed and started verbally attacking me and shit. I don't know if schools have calmed down now but it was ridiculous back then.

Also let's point out that according to the christian faith pledging allegience to anothing other than god is blasphemy.

Really...You've got to be the stupidest person on this board and that's saying quite a bit.

You quote furious_female stating "However, I agree there is NO law saying that children are forced to say the Pledge."

And then post a picture of Bush and some kids saying the pledge of allegiance as if to prove her wrong.

Dude you are a dumbass on so many levels. You shouldn't be spending time here on GFY dontcha know you've only got so much time in the day to figure out your next reason to hate America.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?PID=359


http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/29/poll.pledge/


We do NOT live in a "secular" society.

Your point would be...?

I don't see anyone pointing guns to their heads and forcing them to recite the Pledge. Most school age children are too young and immature to decide if they want to pledge allegiance to our country or not. Most do whatever everyone else is doing, UNTIL they are told differently. It is not the school's responsibility to impose beliefs upon them. That's the parents/guardians obligations. If parents do NOT want their children saying the plede in school everyday, I am SURE they tell their children ahead of time or at some point. I am sure they also notify the school of their wishes, like Jehovah's Witnesses and other non allegiance reciters did.

If any one of those children didn't want to or it was against their religious beliefs to recite the pledge with him, they wouldn't have been forced to. If your child is reciting the Pledge in school everyday and you don't want them to, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure they don't. The majority does and until told otherwise, school children go with the flow.

And you know what? I saw several unhappy kids, being segregated by their PARENTS' religious beliefs in school. The Jehovah's Witness kids always felt left out of fun things like Christmas and birthday parties. And I could tell they wanted to be part of the majority that said the pledge, whether they understood the meaning of it or not, but parents and their beliefs, hurting children that don't know any better.

The government, as our nations "parent" believes in God as a majority. This belief carries on to it's citizens as well. As long as the majority rules, that is the way the scales will tip. If we come to a government and society, that the majority is atheist, then it will tip in the other direction. Which I see coming... more and more people are using atheism as an excuse for their moral decline. Everyone might not believe in God, but at least a belief in SOMETHING good sets a standard for humanity. Whether it's God, a supreme being, Mother nature (the universe stand alone) or whatever... it IS important in civilized society.

This is how I fugure it, I see that many people on this board dont see the point about having it in thier at all, that it is useless. Then I say fine then dont bother with it, dont say it, opt out from it if ya like. You have that right.

This pic is so funny... gotta frame it!! :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-...-PLEDGE-DC.jpg

me again.

Perhaps you missed the part about schools suspending students for not participating? I dodged it, because I threatened them with the ACLU. However, many "children" may not be aware that past legal judgements allow non-participation; . . and apparently neither are some school districts.

It may not exactly be "law" at the congressional level, but by the time their 'strong suggestion' reaches the classroom it's definately not presented as optional.

Even if the school district does not officially punish you for not pledging allegiance to god(WTF!?), there is little recourse against discrimination by christian teachers after you are forced to publically 'out' yourself as a non-believer. Especially in such a confrontational way, by refusing to stand/recite while surrounded by your peers.

Every morning the non-religious are forced to choose between compromising their ideals, or risking their grades by refusing. Why is the USA government 'strongly suggesting' (if not quite legally requring) a display of religious faith every morning? If it's not propaganda.. if it's not an endorsement of religion.. then what is it?

I'll tell you what it is. It's fucking creepy!

I think they should take it out. I mean they make kids recite it everyday before class in like kindergarten. a lot of them dont even know what religion really is, so why force them to say "one nation, under god" ?

Wonder if it is "non patriotic" to not do what the govt "stongly suggests"?? :Graucho

This is little more than a Third Reich behaviour... the propaganda has been ripped from the Master of Propaganda - Joseph Gobels and used, not just in this issue, but others during the "reign" of Furher Bush.

And.. yea... it is scary... and sad! :)