Hooper Says Cheap Trial Are A Ripoff... Dont Be A Sheep! - GoFuckYourself.com

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:12 PM

I'm serious. I have an extra $500,000.00 sitting around to spend on new customers.

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...79#post2432779

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:15 PM

I know that many of you chickenshit cocksuckers will be to scared to actually post....

But you can icq me or wiseman and we'll keep your *smart* identity a secret

boneprone · 09-25-2003, 07:16 PM

my nuts itch

Sly_RJ · 09-25-2003, 07:16 PM

I've heard they don't convert or retain any better. Doesn't make any sense to push them to me. Maybe I'll have to try one out to see if it's true.

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:17 PM

Ok. Last post before I go to watch CSI...

I hate these little promos that promise big bucks per signup.. so i'm not promising big bucks on little promos.

Some people pay 25 bucks for a 10 buck signup..

I'm paying $45-$50 NO BULLSHIT.. NO RULES... for a $3.00 three day trial... and we dont shave.. you can even try test signups whenever you want!

Joe Average · 09-25-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boneprone
my nuts itch

crabs?

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:19 PM

boneprone.. all i have to say is *NOT ME!*... i was tested before our shoot!

:D

bigdog · 09-25-2003, 07:34 PM

good going hooper and he is a mac user hehe

WiredGuy · 09-25-2003, 07:37 PM

You know what Hooper, I tend to agree with you. While I believe these programs will definitely increase volume and transactions, at the same time I tend to believe this program offers better ROI for the sponsor programs because of the exits and cross-sales.

Granted, I'm not a sponsor so I can't really speak from experience, but I'm not convinced that I should take a pay cut of $15 per join for this new model. I have reason to believe that my traffic will actually convert better with the low cost trial versus a $10 monthly (calculating revenue per click). So until I speak to some experienced webmasters who deal with similiar traffic like mine, I'll stick to TCG, Silvercash and Quickbuck.

No offense to the new programs or your models, but I'm not switching just yet.

WG

12clicks · 09-25-2003, 07:39 PM

hooper, drop me a fucking email. I meant to contact you long before now.
Let me make you some money.

[email protected]

Sly_RJ · 09-25-2003, 07:42 PM

Whoa whoa whoa. What the fuck? You have a $1 monthly recurring program, paying out $25 a pop... how many cross-sells do you have and how much are they for?

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:49 PM

the $1.00 per month recurring at $1.00 per month program pays $25.00 per signup. flat. no bullshit.. we have a single.. (sometimes it goes to a double) cross sell depending upon what wiseman is doing with his magic... but it's always to a free trial... so trust.. we're not making our money there... trust :D

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:50 PM

12 clicks.. i have LOVED your nonadult traffic.. i need to get more of it.. very soon..

if you have adult traffic too. hell... i'm game there too :D

you have mail!

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 07:51 PM

i'm not trying to bag on my brothers.. but damn.. i mean.. 10 bucks for a trial??? jeez... thats higher than a hooker at a convention!!!

12clicks · 09-25-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
12 clicks.. i have LOVED your nonadult traffic.. i need to get more of it.. very soon..

if you have adult traffic too. hell... i'm game there too :D

you have mail!

Hoop, this is a different idea. I think it a winner. We'll see what you think in the morning.

The Truth Hurts · 09-25-2003, 07:57 PM

Speaking of ripoffs....
oh nevermind...
most people here don't have memories that go back that far.

Amputate Your Head · 09-25-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
i'm not trying to bag on my brothers.. but damn.. i mean.. 10 bucks for a trial??? jeez... thats higher than a hooker at a convention!!!

where do you see $10 for a trial?

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Truth Hurts
Speaking of ripoffs....
oh nevermind...
most people here don't have memories that go back that far.

dont make things.

make them better :D

if you can rip me off and make a mil.. i'll respect you that much more..

i liked brads post the other night.. innovation is way over rated.

tell RB thanks for http://www.annsxxx.com ... then tell bangbus thanks for http://www.slutbus.com .. then tell nasty dollars thanks for http://www.ryansbeachhouse.com and then when you want to bag on me for being a copycat you can go look at several programs that ripped off my sites.. this is not a game about being first.. it's a game about being BEST!

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 08:12 PM

Well if the user has to put up $10 bucks right off the bat... to the user it is still $10.00!!!
If $10.00 programs were the best way to make $$$ it would have happened long ago!!!!!

Fucking $50 on a 2.99 trial will make he who sends us traffic more $$$$ PERIOD!!!

Again I will offer my cell phone to anyone who hasnt reached us online.... 5096680000 Thats the hotline to $50 trial jones!!!
Hit me online for your join link or call me!!!!

Looks like no sleep for ole WISEMAN tonight...

The Truth Hurts · 09-25-2003, 08:14 PM

I didn't drop any names Hooper...
But it's nice to see someone actually admit where they came from for once.

49thParallel · 09-25-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

Hoop, this is a different idea. I think it a winner. We'll see what you think in the morning.

I am beating a dead horse... And if I don't stop I am going to get banned.

uranidiot · 09-25-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Truth Hurts
I didn't drop any names Hooper...
But it's nice to see someone actually admit where they came from for once.

Unlike you.

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 08:35 PM

i like it!

uranidiot · 09-25-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel

Hmmm..let me guess...a traffic model that downloads trojans, adware and spyware to surfer's computers.

12clicks would never do that. What are you saying?

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 08:44 PM

12 clicks would never do what?? i'm confused.

lil2rich4u2 · 09-25-2003, 08:52 PM

Hooper, i dont even know you ... but this post is top class.

i think you said exactly what a lot of people were thinking, but were afraid to say.

not digging the whole "ill pay 50 if you leave them ...." stuff, but its your game, i wont touch it.

Thanks for the post, and thanks for the experienced insight.

uranidiot · 09-25-2003, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lil2rich4u2
Hooper, i dont even know you ... but this post is top class.

i think you said exactly what a lot of people were thinking, but were afraid to say.

not digging the whole "ill pay 50 if you leave them ...." stuff, but its your game, i wont touch it.

Thanks for the post, and thanks for the experienced insight.

Fuck off.

Rich J. · 09-25-2003, 08:57 PM

Hooper, you could payout $80 and most WM's would probably be making less than they are now with the same traffic to 10 Dollar Cash. Let me know when your ready to setup an account.

You guys would probably kill it with the $10 stuff in your exits. Then you could use all the extra revenue to help offset how much your gonna have to raise payouts to keep up.

The Truth Hurts · 09-25-2003, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by uranidiot

Unlike you.

No need, I'm not here to promote anything.

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 09:00 PM

i'll add that to my little black book.

$80 per $2.99 trial will end up paying less than $25 per $10 trial...

where was my head?

thx

slapass · 09-25-2003, 09:01 PM

I would love to push quickbucks but I am not going to do 20 signups a day for you. You opening to little guys?

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 09-25-2003, 09:07 PM

Well the poisons out and the consumer wants a better deal thats pretty clear these days.

Glad to see some sponsor program's are bold enough to attempt giving the consumer an actual deal for access, and not be driven for higher payouts from the traffic barons and killing the consumer in the process.

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slapass
I would love to push quickbucks but I am not going to do 20 signups a day for you. You opening to little guys?

Hit me up bro!! We will get you squared away!!!
CHECK THE SIG FOR CONTACTS

drunkdollars · 09-25-2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by THE WISEMAN

Hit me up bro!! We will get you squared away!!!
CHECK THE SIG FOR CONTACTS

QuickBucks will also payout for your icq list ;)

Sigs are so 2003

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drunkdollars

QuickBucks will also payout for your icq list ;)

Sigs are so 2003

HELL YEA!!!!!!!!!!!! $25 dollar's Paypal Just for spamming your entire ICQ list!!!!!

Stevie Ward · 09-25-2003, 09:35 PM

$50 DAMN....I am on it. Your shit has always converted the best for us. How long is this payout going to last?

Rich J. · 09-25-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
$80 per $2.99 trial will end up paying less than $25 per $10 trial...

where was my head?

thx

For one, I think you might be misunderstanding the $10 program. It IS NOT a $10 trial. It is $10 a month straight up, for a full on paysite membership with exclusive content and no upsells. This shit sells... Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and put us up for a couple day's and see the conversions for yourself.

Lensman · 09-25-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
I'm serious. I have an extra $500,000.00 sitting around to spend on new customers.

Is that all?

GrimShawn · 09-25-2003, 09:40 PM

Wiseman is my friend

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lensman

Is that all?

I think he has a little more then that!!! But he is a Jew after all so he will never tell!!!

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrimShawn
Wiseman is my friend

And you are mine!!!!

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich J.

For one, I think you might be misunderstanding the $10 program. It IS NOT a $10 trial. It is $10 a month straight up, for a full on paysite membership with exclusive content and no upsells. This shit sells... Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and put us up for a couple day's and see the conversions for yourself.

The point is Rich you are still asking the little broke pervert to whip out $10 RIGHT NOW!!

We are only asking em to pull out $2.99

So now everyone sending traffic has to hope that the traffic they are sending is NOW willing to Spend $10 UPFRONT!!

We are betting not as many will!!!!!!!

Hooper · 09-25-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Is that all?

Lens meet Wiseman.. Wiseman.. meet lensman :D

Lensman · 09-25-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper

Lens meet Wiseman.. Wiseman.. meet lensman :D

My pleasure

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper

Lens meet Wiseman.. Wiseman.. meet lensman :D

We have met many a times!
I believe we were even haveing shots with Kevin from TopBucks together in Miami

Rich J. · 09-25-2003, 10:03 PM

It's not that I dont think you guys run a top notch program because you do, but times are changing and the old model is just not cutting it anymore. There has to be a breaking point. I have been marketing trial programs for years and after seeing the stats on $10, I am convinced that point is now. These guy's are sick of getting hit for so much $ just so the site operator can pay their bills. However they don't seem to mind paying a fair price for a good product and that is being proven over and over again in our webmasters stats. If you guys can continue to kick ass on the per trial stuff, more power to you but I assure there is no "scam" invovled with the path adult.com and other successful programs have decided to take.

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by THE WISEMAN

We have met many a times!
I believe we were even haveing shots with Kevin from TopBucks together in Miami.. Maybe we were to drunk

BradShaw · 09-25-2003, 10:04 PM

Lets revisit the $10 programs in 6 months, think they will be small potatoes, maybe make up 5% of the game at the most. Bottom line is they are more of a solution for programs with CB issues, they are a solution for a webmaster looking to maximize income. Of course Lens and Dave, and many others wish everyone would move to such a model, but this is a free economic system... Sometimes too free.

SleazyDream · 09-25-2003, 10:05 PM

just my two pennies but i think hooper is right TODAY.

Tomorrow is another story

in a couple of months when the new chargeback ratio hammer falls I think lens and the others with $10 programs will be on top and laughing as it's a more sound business model that doesn't TRICK people into paying something they never really thought they'd have to pay more for.

Wiseman · 09-25-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SleazyDream
just my two pennies but i think hooper is right TODAY.

Tomorrow is another story

in a couple of months when the new chargeback ratio hammer falls I think lens and the others with $10 programs will be on top and laughing as it's a more sound business model that doesn't TRICK people into paying something they never really thought they'd have to pay more for.

GOD!!! NOW SEND US SOME DAMN TRAFFIC SLEAZY!!!!!!!

09-25-2003, 07:12 PM	#1
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	Hooper Says Cheap Trial Are A Ripoff... Dont Be A Sheep! I'm serious. I have an extra $500,000.00 sitting around to spend on new customers. http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...79#post2432779 __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:15 PM	#2
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	I know that many of you chickenshit cocksuckers will be to scared to actually post.... But you can icq me or wiseman and we'll keep your smart identity a secret __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:16 PM	#3
boneprone Hall Of Fame Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland Oregon USA Posts: 34,415	my nuts itch __________________ Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones Bow to the Power - Still BP4L http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame Learn about it kids.

09-25-2003, 07:16 PM	#4
Sly_RJ Live Hard - Die Hard Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ready to leave... Posts: 17,042	I've heard they don't convert or retain any better. Doesn't make any sense to push them to me. Maybe I'll have to try one out to see if it's true. __________________ PHAT SERVERS - Quality dedicated hosting at a quality price! sly AT phatservers DOT com - 147479144

09-25-2003, 07:17 PM	#5
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	Ok. Last post before I go to watch CSI... I hate these little promos that promise big bucks per signup.. so i'm not promising big bucks on little promos. Some people pay 25 bucks for a 10 buck signup.. I'm paying $45-$50 NO BULLSHIT.. NO RULES... for a $3.00 three day trial... and we dont shave.. you can even try test signups whenever you want! __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:19 PM	#7
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	boneprone.. all i have to say is NOT ME!... i was tested before our shoot! :D __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:34 PM	#8
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	good going hooper and he is a mac user hehe

09-25-2003, 07:37 PM	#9
WiredGuy Pounding Googlebot Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 34,482	You know what Hooper, I tend to agree with you. While I believe these programs will definitely increase volume and transactions, at the same time I tend to believe this program offers better ROI for the sponsor programs because of the exits and cross-sales. Granted, I'm not a sponsor so I can't really speak from experience, but I'm not convinced that I should take a pay cut of $15 per join for this new model. I have reason to believe that my traffic will actually convert better with the low cost trial versus a $10 monthly (calculating revenue per click). So until I speak to some experienced webmasters who deal with similiar traffic like mine, I'll stick to TCG, Silvercash and Quickbuck. No offense to the new programs or your models, but I'm not switching just yet. WG __________________ I play with Google.

09-25-2003, 07:39 PM	#10
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,789	hooper, drop me a fucking email. I meant to contact you long before now. Let me make you some money. [email protected] __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

09-25-2003, 07:42 PM	#11
Sly_RJ Live Hard - Die Hard Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ready to leave... Posts: 17,042	Whoa whoa whoa. What the fuck? You have a $1 monthly recurring program, paying out $25 a pop... how many cross-sells do you have and how much are they for? __________________ PHAT SERVERS - Quality dedicated hosting at a quality price! sly AT phatservers DOT com - 147479144

09-25-2003, 07:49 PM	#12
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	the $1.00 per month recurring at $1.00 per month program pays $25.00 per signup. flat. no bullshit.. we have a single.. (sometimes it goes to a double) cross sell depending upon what wiseman is doing with his magic... but it's always to a free trial... so trust.. we're not making our money there... trust :D __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:50 PM	#13
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	12 clicks.. i have LOVED your nonadult traffic.. i need to get more of it.. very soon.. if you have adult traffic too. hell... i'm game there too :D you have mail! __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:51 PM	#14
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	i'm not trying to bag on my brothers.. but damn.. i mean.. 10 bucks for a trial??? jeez... thats higher than a hooker at a convention!!! __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 07:57 PM	#16
The Truth Hurts Zph7YXfjMhg Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In Your Skull Posts: 15,305	Speaking of ripoffs.... oh nevermind... most people here don't have memories that go back that far. Last edited by The Truth Hurts; 09-25-2003 at 08:05 PM..

09-25-2003, 08:12 PM	#19
Wiseman Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,990	Well if the user has to put up $10 bucks right off the bat... to the user it is still $10.00!!! If $10.00 programs were the best way to make $$$ it would have happened long ago!!!!! Fucking $50 on a 2.99 trial will make he who sends us traffic more $$$$ PERIOD!!! Again I will offer my cell phone to anyone who hasnt reached us online.... 5096680000 Thats the hotline to $50 trial jones!!! Hit me online for your join link or call me!!!! Looks like no sleep for ole WISEMAN tonight... __________________ []E-mail: [email protected][]ICQ: 109726012[*]AIM: QbWiseman

09-25-2003, 08:14 PM	#20
The Truth Hurts Zph7YXfjMhg Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In Your Skull Posts: 15,305	I didn't drop any names Hooper... But it's nice to see someone actually admit where they came from for once.

09-25-2003, 08:35 PM	#23
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	i like it! __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 08:44 PM	#25
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	12 clicks would never do what?? i'm confused. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 08:52 PM	#26
lil2rich4u2 ICQ: 175171926 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,046	Hooper, i dont even know you ... but this post is top class. i think you said exactly what a lot of people were thinking, but were afraid to say. not digging the whole "ill pay 50 if you leave them ...." stuff, but its your game, i wont touch it. Thanks for the post, and thanks for the experienced insight. __________________ HEY!! Unbeatable hosting! Customer service is top notch! --> ISPrime <-- Do a search on any board, their reputation is rock solid .. for years!!

09-25-2003, 08:57 PM	#28
Rich J. Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 589	Hooper, you could payout $80 and most WM's would probably be making less than they are now with the same traffic to 10 Dollar Cash. Let me know when your ready to setup an account. You guys would probably kill it with the $10 stuff in your exits. Then you could use all the extra revenue to help offset how much your gonna have to raise payouts to keep up. __________________ Adult Web Marketing Specialist with 10 years of Industry Experience - CONTACT ME

09-25-2003, 09:00 PM	#30
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	i'll add that to my little black book. $80 per $2.99 trial will end up paying less than $25 per $10 trial... where was my head? thx __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

09-25-2003, 09:01 PM	#31
slapass Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 14,622	I would love to push quickbucks but I am not going to do 20 signups a day for you. You opening to little guys?

09-25-2003, 09:07 PM	#32
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Well the poisons out and the consumer wants a better deal thats pretty clear these days. Glad to see some sponsor program's are bold enough to attempt giving the consumer an actual deal for access, and not be driven for higher payouts from the traffic barons and killing the consumer in the process. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

09-25-2003, 09:35 PM	#36
Stevie Ward Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: sunny place Posts: 96	$50 DAMN....I am on it. Your shit has always converted the best for us. How long is this payout going to last?

09-25-2003, 09:40 PM	#39
GrimShawn Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: BONEPRONE MANSION serving drinks! Posts: 8,120	Wiseman is my friend

09-25-2003, 10:03 PM	#46
Rich J. Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 589	It's not that I dont think you guys run a top notch program because you do, but times are changing and the old model is just not cutting it anymore. There has to be a breaking point. I have been marketing trial programs for years and after seeing the stats on $10, I am convinced that point is now. These guy's are sick of getting hit for so much $ just so the site operator can pay their bills. However they don't seem to mind paying a fair price for a good product and that is being proven over and over again in our webmasters stats. If you guys can continue to kick ass on the per trial stuff, more power to you but I assure there is no "scam" invovled with the path adult.com and other successful programs have decided to take. __________________ Adult Web Marketing Specialist with 10 years of Industry Experience - CONTACT ME

09-25-2003, 10:04 PM	#48
BradShaw Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KB's trailer Posts: 7,840	Lets revisit the $10 programs in 6 months, think they will be small potatoes, maybe make up 5% of the game at the most. Bottom line is they are more of a solution for programs with CB issues, they are a solution for a webmaster looking to maximize income. Of course Lens and Dave, and many others wish everyone would move to such a model, but this is a free economic system... Sometimes too free. __________________ Sig too big http://www.gofuckyourself.com/gfy_faqs.html Want to use a large banner in your sig??? Contact Eric about getting on as an advertiser - eric AT adult.com

09-25-2003, 10:05 PM	#49
SleazyDream I'm here for SPORT Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phone # (401) 285-0696 Posts: 41,470	just my two pennies but i think hooper is right TODAY. Tomorrow is another story in a couple of months when the new chargeback ratio hammer falls I think lens and the others with $10 programs will be on top and laughing as it's a more sound business model that doesn't TRICK people into paying something they never really thought they'd have to pay more for. __________________ This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog! Now read without the word dog.