America was a penal colony first and recieved more English convicts than Australia ever did.

if i dont see it on CNN, its not true!

I don't think that tells much of the story.

The concept of justice, retribution, and a general feeling that things should be evened out is ancient. The idea appears in one form in the Old Testament ("An Eye for an Eye") and as part of the debate in Plato's Republic among many other places.

Popular movies reflect current sentiment as much as they create it and I would argue that it is even more so the former than the latter.

John Wayne is hardly a starting point for stories of justice. Easterners had a voracious appetite for the the American West stories that arrived in paperback serials. Many idolized Doc Holiday, Billy the Kid and Wild Bill Hickok. John Wayne westerns were more of a continuation of that and I'm sure you can keep following the trail back if you wish to European ideals of individualism.

Of course the same styled American films are popular all over the world. You can't watch a movie and think that because it was made in America that's what Americans like and not you. The direct evidence is to the contrary. You're watching it!

Who here hasn't seen Tombstone? If you haven't, go see it ;-)

You have a funny conception of Americans. Is fear predominantly a story told in the US press and not elsewhere? No, of course not. The BBC, for example, gives one plenty enough to be afraid of. The Americans, the terrorists, the disease of the week. News is bad everywhere and for good reason. Do the British, the French, the Romanians, and the Australians spend much of their day watching newscasts about the planting of flowers in downtown London, Paris, Bucharest, or Canberra?

From the looks of the threads, some of the non-Americans on this board seem scared to death of everything most of all of the Americans! Any story with a "slippery rope" or "dominoes" is a reflection of that same fear.

yall dont fuck yer cousins?

Best documentary ever!

Shows why the average american afraid is :-)

The cartoon was to funny :1orglaugh

"I want to open a bank account""
"which bankaccount SIR ?"
"the one where I get the free Gun""

Unbelievable!

I give up. Why don't you tell me? Why ARE you obsessed with America and it's culture? Why do you take the time to point out the Americans only stay in American hotels and "do Europe in 10 days".

For one that believes in cultural equivalence you sure spend a lot of time pointing to those cultural differences and using it to mock American cultural differences.

Why is that staying in hostels and backpacking, for example, is superior to staying in expensive hotels? 10 day trips to Europe - and shorter vactions- are decidedly an American phenomenon. Why knock the culture of others?

I've never once claimed that American culture is superior to any other and yet you have taken the time again and again to claim that it is culturally inferior. One of us takes the time to post in every other thread about the big bad Americans and the other has never said a negative word about the other's country.

Of course, I don't blame you. You are just reflecting the opinions and stereotypes of your neighbors. You can hardly be blamed for so blindly being herded. But really, it's quite funny that you are so culturally arrogant while trying to claim that opposite.

OK so tell me why are the more murders in Chicago than in N. Ireland in the height of the "Troubles"

It is to easy to say not that, tell us why you think it is so.

Pleasurepays
The news in Czech and the UK is less focused on death and destruction because we have less of it.

It would be a nice tight story indeed if we could just say "the media causes x to happen". I hope it doesn't escape your attention that fear and loathing and hatred and violence are all over the world and have been around for all of written history. Even the most ancient of historians were writing about the conflicts and problems of their cultures.

Of course it is much too simple of a statement because media reflects and mirrors society as much as it influences it. Such relationships are probably reflexive. Moore doesn't comment on that or a wide range of other causes and effects because he is telling a story.

In his movie, Michael Moore provides anecdotal evidence only that the belligerent actions of US policy cause higher homicide rates. There is no correlation however. Anecdotal evidence is hardly the stuff of good science.

Homicide rates in the US increased from the turn of the century and peaked in 1933. They then fell to a local low around 1960 and then climbed again until the mid-1990s and have since fallen back to the level of the 1960s.

:1orglaugh

The Rundown for kick more asses than this movie.

The movie was entertaining. Moore presents a one sided opinion. The cartoon was funny as hell, and I liked how he got a free gun when opening a bank account ... I didn't like however how he took advantage of a confused old Heston.

Anyhow, take it for what it was ... one persons commentary on a subject that may have been their personal views, or perhaps just something controversial to make himself some money.

In the end it is just another movie. If it forces people to look at some issues more, that is great, otherwise it was something to do for 2 hrs. :2 cents:

Not sure in which countries you were, but the US media is the only one cluttered all over with documentaries about crimes, shows like Cops and so on. This simply does NOT exist in germany, belgium, france or england in the way it does in the US. (could only say about those 4 because I know tv in those 4)...

Of course, news shows violence in some degree everywhere, but the point here is that in the US its all over the place.

There is WAY too much violence in the USA. And I personally believe guns should be done away with as much as possible. Our right to bear arms was originally meant to give us a way to rise up against our government if it started fucking us over again. But in this age, our guns wouldn't allow us to do that. Iraq had guns too... much better guns than the average US citizen... but it didn't help them against our military. So the reason for right to bear arms is no longer valid.

However, Michael Moore's film is for idiots. It's not fact based at all. It was meant to make Michael Moore's point. When challenged on issues of truth, Moore himself even admits he greatly exaggerated. He was as much out to make a buck (more so) than to deliver a message.

This site sums up a lot of key points:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Anyone that quotes "Bowling" in arguments against gun control is an idiot that I would personally lose all respect for...

We all already know the factors. We all do. There are dozens of them. You can't find simple correlations because they don't exist. Sometimes one set of actions, say legislation, increases homicide rates in one area and sometimes that same action decreases homicide rates somewhere else. What might work in Australia might fail in the United Kingdom. What might work in the US might fail in Russia.

To try and easily pawn anything off on the media, income, popular culture, movies, social capital, demographics, number of urban areas, ghettos, or legislation will always leave more additional questions than answers.

It's like economics. People argue for policy largely based on what kind of world they want to live in more than the weight of evidence.

wOw!

i didnt think my thread would get this many posts.

:)

another :2 cents: of mine:

if the US would have a black or female president i think it would change that way the country works.
i hope Chris Rock get in ;)

:thumbsup :thumbsup

i live in small town canada and personally i have never even seen a handgun in person, with the exception of the ones cops carry. some ppl around here do leave their doors unlocked. tho my friend who used to do this was robbed, he locks his door now.

as for the film, yes i would say its propaganda, and you have to wonder if moore made this film not to try and demonize america (tho i don't think there is any denying they have a problem with guns) but show how easily we are lead to believe things simply because we see them in movies or in the media. we swallow what we are fed without much research, or the majority does at least. moores film was edited to obviously to make his point. be it a point that america needs to take a look at itself in terms of its gun love or his point that the media has too much control over public thought. is he totally right? no. is he totally wrong? no.

get ready for moores next movie Fahrenheit 911

We don't lock our doors ... Well I don't personally . Never got robbed .

Living in fear makes you think everybody is like you .

The BUSH administration gonna call irakis terrorist instead of war resistents because they can handle it differently

What is your hangup with suicide?

Read the whole thread and you'll see how it's relevant.

People in this thread have made the argument that we Americans should be embarrassed by our "gun problem"...

I'm wondering why the French can't get a handle on their Suicide problem. In the US you are more likely to be killed with a firearm than in France. In France you are more likely to die some kind of volent death than in the US.

In france there are 58% more suicides than in the US, pushing their violent death rate to 22.67 (annual deaths per 100,000 people) compared to 18.57 in the US.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

So which country is safer?
If America has a gun Problem then France has a Suicide Problem.

Michael Moore also neglected to mention how many of those US gun deaths were justifiable homicide and prevented other violent crimes from happening.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm

They certainly also include self defensive use by Law Enforcement.

are you kidding me? most of the people trying to get rid of guns aren't trying to get rid of the ones that are used in crime. they're trying to make hunting rifles and the like illegal. these lawmakers and proposers know exactly what weapons are used in violent crime. most of those weapons are ALREADY illegal. we don't need more gun control laws, we need people enforcing the laws we have, to get the illegal weapons off the street.

do you know how many documented crimes have been committed in the US with legally owned automatic firearms? TWO, and neither one in recent history.

when was the last time someone did a drive-by with a .30-06 bolt-action hunting rifle? or held up a bank with the same thing? no, they use an ILLEGAL mac10 or ak47.

Still clueless I see...but it is to be expected...as you always will be clueless. By the way...kiss my ass...not on the left cheek and not on the right cheek but right in zee middle.

So called "assault weapons" are used in less than one per cent of gun crimes. So called "Saturday night specials" are the weapons most commonly used in gun crimes.

fuck you liberal faggots

guns money and cristal die

So why is it in the FREEest of all free countries there is hardly any "non politically correct"(unpatriotic?) criticism or discourse(that makes it through my ear wax) ?

Everybody agrees with the big chief??

******owitz and ****umsfeld got the perfect plan?


Doesnt really fit what I hear informally from US friends.(the unpatriotic bastards)

Nobody expects the US to be perfect but the lack of real political discourse(oposing views like....) on public as well as private level seems to rime pourly with all the claims of freedom central....

Sure, in times of war you need to unite.
But was it any different before?

Seems to me to rich and mighty decides the political agenda in the US.
Wich aint really my kind of freedom, which is ok as i dont live in the US.

However its a bit scary from my point of view considering the superpower position and so on and so forth.....

Can you edit that one more time to add a point? :)

all other things being equal. Would you feel safer in a country with a 10/100,000 suicide rate or a 10/100,000 homicide rate?

No, a guy that wrote a book titled "Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!" definitely wouldn't be trying to demonize the nation.

heh that's not demonizing the country.. Chomsky may be a different story though :)

That's odd that you say that.

The US is full of opposing political discourse. You can simply turn on the evening news or read any newspaper to watch stories and read editorials and comments that are decidedly negative towards any particular point-of-view whether it be the war, the Republicans, the Democrats, government finance, or social policies.

Hell, follow the campaigning of the potential Democratic candidates if you want to hear voices opposing the current US administration.

I watched the news just last night and there were more negative stories towards government than positive ones. Positive news stories don't keep most people's attention very long.

150 :glugglug

You are comparing suicide to murder?
You really are insane.

Sure both are a problem, but you choosing to terminate your life and someone else doing it for you is a bit different?

I dont have time to read thru this all!

Canada rawks and That movie kicked ass!!

IT's won an Oscar for a reason. :321GFY

actually...for the record...I DON"T lock my door!!! For example, the night of the blackout, I as per usual, didn't have my door locked and someone who was lost in the dark wandered in to my apartment...was I scared?? NO!!! I actually gave him a lighter and sent him on his way. A few days later he wrote a thank you note and posted it in the lobby.

So!! YES there are people here in CANADA that don't lock their doors and YES!!! I live right downtown basically next to Maple leaf gardens! :thumbsup

hard to kill six people execution style with a knife :winkwink:

Drive by stranglings are also basically unheard of.

i liked it, "roger & me" was good too.

I just saw this movie for the first time the other night...it was pretty interesting. There were so many different parts on it, it's hard to remember which the most extreme were.

Did anybody else find that blind guy, whose favorite gun was the M16 as disturbing as I?