100 :glugglug

It sounded like you were trying to make a point.

I just thought maybe I was missing something. Comparing rice and guns just didn't seem to make sense. I should have known nobody could really be that silly.

I heard stories of birds eating raw rice and then their stomachs would blow up!

Why is that so many people are searching and arguing for one simple cause to describe one effect?

If Michael Moore were making a serious documentary film he would have asked the tough questions. Why is the murder rate among African-Americans so high (7-8x higher)? Why did the homicide rate begin a steady climb upwards in the US and other industrial countries beginning in about 1960 doubling in just a decade? Why did homicide rates peak more than a decade ago? Most importantly, why is the US homicide rate at it's lowest point today since 1965? What has changed? What is going on? Why has the homicide rate declined more than 30% in just a decade in the largest US cities? In just 10 years the homicide rates among African Americans has halved. Why?

Utilitarian arguments aren't the real issue. Even if you could prove conclusively that for all societies, at all time, under all conditions less guns will lead to less dead people - many people would not wish for the repeal of the 2nd amendment.

I'm not from the USA but I've been there quite often. I like that country!

But I think this movie wasn't made to show the people around the globe how dangerous and bad the USA are.
It's a movie for american to show you that some things are going wrong. just like in every single country in the world.
In the USA many people tend to believe that everything's just fine. But of course it isn't. This movie is probably too extreme but it can help to get a better sense of reality.
Here in Germany it's the opposite. We have these kind of documentations every day. We don't know what the word patriotism means. In Germany you grow up in the believe that the country you're living in sucks and that you are not allowed to be proud of it.

Understand what I want to say?
This movie was made for americans. Michael Moore is an american. It doesn't matter what happens in other countries. There are some things he doesn't like and he wanted to express his feelings.
Of course this movie is subjective but why not watch it and think about it?
PERHAPS Michael Moore is right here and there...

:warning THINKING:warning

And NOT: I don't like this movie. Everything in it is wrong!
And also NOT: Michael Moore is 100% right!


Just my :2 cents:

btw.: after watching this movie I still love the USA :)
Especially Miami.
And there I really love the "German Biergarten" on the Collins Ave. ;)

I think that one lesson Europe learned from World War II is that Nationalism is a bad thing. Americans learned the exact opposite lesson.

Guten Tag, Swingerman. :-)

For the record, I did watch the movie. I watched it for the entertainment value (I laughed a lot).

Why not read Rush Limbaugh's book or listen to his show? Maybe I am being closed-minded but I presume I'd be wasting my time reading Limbaugh's "The Way Things Ought to Be".

Anyone that writes a book titled "Stupid White Men" is playing to the lowest common denominator. Moore's material is aimed at as biased a group as Limbaugh's.

I'm pretty baffled by anyone championing Michael Moore.

Such authors are guilty for what they leave out as much as what they put in.

Nationalism is a bad thing.

Maybe America is being dumbed down. It must be infectious though. It seems to be spreading to the rest of the world.

A few samples of what American pulp media has produced in the past few years.

"Stupid White Men" - Michael Moore

"Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot: And Other Observations" - Al Francken

"Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism" - Sean Hannity

"Liberal Treachery" - Ann Coulter

"Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong" - Mona Charen

"Blinded by the Right" - David Brock

"Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine" - Joe Conason

Mass marketed glossy paperbacks aimed at catering to either people's fear of the evil socialist liberals or the religious right-wing conservatives.

Nationalism will save you.

That's what Hitler told the Germans.

No thats baking powder, as I am ashamed to admit but a freind of mine when I was about 13 used to throw bread for birds which was covered in baking powder they would then blow up

Your belief assumes a Utopian world which doesn't exist and probably never will.

Your assumption that nationalism is bad thing is only true if no one else in the world is nationalistic. Global politics is a chessboard and your opponent has pieces. I will agree with you that if no one in the world identified themselves with various ideologies we'd probably be better off but they do. It may never be different.

You could argue that the nation-state is only a temporary political arrangement. I would grant that is an extremely high probability. However, it and it's variants are here right now though.

The French didn't want to be German. They wanted to be French. Right after the second great war they went back to being french with french customs, language, and traditions. Those are the same customs, language, and traditions that you wish to experience when you travel to France.

If the Japanese militarized and invaded and defeated Australia, would you be happy to switch to Japanese customs, language, and traditions? Why or why not?

I tried that with Alka-Seltzer and it didn't work.

The point Michael moore made was the level of fear that Americans are fed. Their media is full of it. Is it because that is all there is or that is all that is reported.

Also as Colin's signature shows, there is a tendency to idolise the man who take justice into his own hands. Like Micheal Douglas, Stallone or Willis, these are all idols and it started with John Wayne.

Some kids watching this day in and day our have a tendency to think it is right. Also someone made the point about Afro-Americans, do another survey and look at wage earnings and education, you might see the causes instead of the results.

why hit me up on Icq 122994792

please show me the media that does not over sensationalize everything. i have travelled all over the world and lived out of the US for most of the last 7-8 years and there is no such thing as a media that is not "full of it" - there is only media which you agree and dissagree with, thus you give more credibility to those news sources which support or are consistent with your own views.


thats interesting that his signature "shows" all that. i thought it was just an actor with a gun.

haha... i would like to see you analyze all the sigs on GFY.

please tell us what they "show"

Nationalism and cultural identity are not the same thing.

I like living in Australia and appreciate Australian culture but I don't believe Australian culture is inherently better or more important than any other culture in the world... it's just different.

Nationalism breeds hatred and xenophobia. Every culture has something to offer. Why get obsessed with just one?

Opinions on Culture From a Penal Colony
by Joe Average

:Graucho

:321GFY michael moore

America was a penal colony first and recieved more English convicts than Australia ever did.

if i dont see it on CNN, its not true!

I don't think that tells much of the story.

The concept of justice, retribution, and a general feeling that things should be evened out is ancient. The idea appears in one form in the Old Testament ("An Eye for an Eye") and as part of the debate in Plato's Republic among many other places.

Popular movies reflect current sentiment as much as they create it and I would argue that it is even more so the former than the latter.

John Wayne is hardly a starting point for stories of justice. Easterners had a voracious appetite for the the American West stories that arrived in paperback serials. Many idolized Doc Holiday, Billy the Kid and Wild Bill Hickok. John Wayne westerns were more of a continuation of that and I'm sure you can keep following the trail back if you wish to European ideals of individualism.

Of course the same styled American films are popular all over the world. You can't watch a movie and think that because it was made in America that's what Americans like and not you. The direct evidence is to the contrary. You're watching it!

Who here hasn't seen Tombstone? If you haven't, go see it ;-)

You have a funny conception of Americans. Is fear predominantly a story told in the US press and not elsewhere? No, of course not. The BBC, for example, gives one plenty enough to be afraid of. The Americans, the terrorists, the disease of the week. News is bad everywhere and for good reason. Do the British, the French, the Romanians, and the Australians spend much of their day watching newscasts about the planting of flowers in downtown London, Paris, Bucharest, or Canberra?

From the looks of the threads, some of the non-Americans on this board seem scared to death of everything most of all of the Americans! Any story with a "slippery rope" or "dominoes" is a reflection of that same fear.

yall dont fuck yer cousins?

Best documentary ever!

Shows why the average american afraid is :-)

The cartoon was to funny :1orglaugh

"I want to open a bank account""
"which bankaccount SIR ?"
"the one where I get the free Gun""

Unbelievable!

I give up. Why don't you tell me? Why ARE you obsessed with America and it's culture? Why do you take the time to point out the Americans only stay in American hotels and "do Europe in 10 days".

For one that believes in cultural equivalence you sure spend a lot of time pointing to those cultural differences and using it to mock American cultural differences.

Why is that staying in hostels and backpacking, for example, is superior to staying in expensive hotels? 10 day trips to Europe - and shorter vactions- are decidedly an American phenomenon. Why knock the culture of others?

I've never once claimed that American culture is superior to any other and yet you have taken the time again and again to claim that it is culturally inferior. One of us takes the time to post in every other thread about the big bad Americans and the other has never said a negative word about the other's country.

Of course, I don't blame you. You are just reflecting the opinions and stereotypes of your neighbors. You can hardly be blamed for so blindly being herded. But really, it's quite funny that you are so culturally arrogant while trying to claim that opposite.

OK so tell me why are the more murders in Chicago than in N. Ireland in the height of the "Troubles"

It is to easy to say not that, tell us why you think it is so.

Pleasurepays
The news in Czech and the UK is less focused on death and destruction because we have less of it.

It would be a nice tight story indeed if we could just say "the media causes x to happen". I hope it doesn't escape your attention that fear and loathing and hatred and violence are all over the world and have been around for all of written history. Even the most ancient of historians were writing about the conflicts and problems of their cultures.

Of course it is much too simple of a statement because media reflects and mirrors society as much as it influences it. Such relationships are probably reflexive. Moore doesn't comment on that or a wide range of other causes and effects because he is telling a story.

In his movie, Michael Moore provides anecdotal evidence only that the belligerent actions of US policy cause higher homicide rates. There is no correlation however. Anecdotal evidence is hardly the stuff of good science.

Homicide rates in the US increased from the turn of the century and peaked in 1933. They then fell to a local low around 1960 and then climbed again until the mid-1990s and have since fallen back to the level of the 1960s.

:1orglaugh

The Rundown for kick more asses than this movie.

The movie was entertaining. Moore presents a one sided opinion. The cartoon was funny as hell, and I liked how he got a free gun when opening a bank account ... I didn't like however how he took advantage of a confused old Heston.

Anyhow, take it for what it was ... one persons commentary on a subject that may have been their personal views, or perhaps just something controversial to make himself some money.

In the end it is just another movie. If it forces people to look at some issues more, that is great, otherwise it was something to do for 2 hrs. :2 cents:

Not sure in which countries you were, but the US media is the only one cluttered all over with documentaries about crimes, shows like Cops and so on. This simply does NOT exist in germany, belgium, france or england in the way it does in the US. (could only say about those 4 because I know tv in those 4)...

Of course, news shows violence in some degree everywhere, but the point here is that in the US its all over the place.

There is WAY too much violence in the USA. And I personally believe guns should be done away with as much as possible. Our right to bear arms was originally meant to give us a way to rise up against our government if it started fucking us over again. But in this age, our guns wouldn't allow us to do that. Iraq had guns too... much better guns than the average US citizen... but it didn't help them against our military. So the reason for right to bear arms is no longer valid.

However, Michael Moore's film is for idiots. It's not fact based at all. It was meant to make Michael Moore's point. When challenged on issues of truth, Moore himself even admits he greatly exaggerated. He was as much out to make a buck (more so) than to deliver a message.

This site sums up a lot of key points:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Anyone that quotes "Bowling" in arguments against gun control is an idiot that I would personally lose all respect for...

We all already know the factors. We all do. There are dozens of them. You can't find simple correlations because they don't exist. Sometimes one set of actions, say legislation, increases homicide rates in one area and sometimes that same action decreases homicide rates somewhere else. What might work in Australia might fail in the United Kingdom. What might work in the US might fail in Russia.

To try and easily pawn anything off on the media, income, popular culture, movies, social capital, demographics, number of urban areas, ghettos, or legislation will always leave more additional questions than answers.

It's like economics. People argue for policy largely based on what kind of world they want to live in more than the weight of evidence.

wOw!

i didnt think my thread would get this many posts.

:)

another :2 cents: of mine:

if the US would have a black or female president i think it would change that way the country works.
i hope Chris Rock get in ;)

:thumbsup :thumbsup

i live in small town canada and personally i have never even seen a handgun in person, with the exception of the ones cops carry. some ppl around here do leave their doors unlocked. tho my friend who used to do this was robbed, he locks his door now.

as for the film, yes i would say its propaganda, and you have to wonder if moore made this film not to try and demonize america (tho i don't think there is any denying they have a problem with guns) but show how easily we are lead to believe things simply because we see them in movies or in the media. we swallow what we are fed without much research, or the majority does at least. moores film was edited to obviously to make his point. be it a point that america needs to take a look at itself in terms of its gun love or his point that the media has too much control over public thought. is he totally right? no. is he totally wrong? no.

get ready for moores next movie Fahrenheit 911

We don't lock our doors ... Well I don't personally . Never got robbed .

Living in fear makes you think everybody is like you .

The BUSH administration gonna call irakis terrorist instead of war resistents because they can handle it differently

What is your hangup with suicide?

Read the whole thread and you'll see how it's relevant.

People in this thread have made the argument that we Americans should be embarrassed by our "gun problem"...

I'm wondering why the French can't get a handle on their Suicide problem. In the US you are more likely to be killed with a firearm than in France. In France you are more likely to die some kind of volent death than in the US.

In france there are 58% more suicides than in the US, pushing their violent death rate to 22.67 (annual deaths per 100,000 people) compared to 18.57 in the US.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

So which country is safer?
If America has a gun Problem then France has a Suicide Problem.

Michael Moore also neglected to mention how many of those US gun deaths were justifiable homicide and prevented other violent crimes from happening.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm

They certainly also include self defensive use by Law Enforcement.

are you kidding me? most of the people trying to get rid of guns aren't trying to get rid of the ones that are used in crime. they're trying to make hunting rifles and the like illegal. these lawmakers and proposers know exactly what weapons are used in violent crime. most of those weapons are ALREADY illegal. we don't need more gun control laws, we need people enforcing the laws we have, to get the illegal weapons off the street.

do you know how many documented crimes have been committed in the US with legally owned automatic firearms? TWO, and neither one in recent history.

when was the last time someone did a drive-by with a .30-06 bolt-action hunting rifle? or held up a bank with the same thing? no, they use an ILLEGAL mac10 or ak47.

Still clueless I see...but it is to be expected...as you always will be clueless. By the way...kiss my ass...not on the left cheek and not on the right cheek but right in zee middle.

So called "assault weapons" are used in less than one per cent of gun crimes. So called "Saturday night specials" are the weapons most commonly used in gun crimes.

fuck you liberal faggots

guns money and cristal die

So why is it in the FREEest of all free countries there is hardly any "non politically correct"(unpatriotic?) criticism or discourse(that makes it through my ear wax) ?

Everybody agrees with the big chief??

******owitz and ****umsfeld got the perfect plan?


Doesnt really fit what I hear informally from US friends.(the unpatriotic bastards)

Nobody expects the US to be perfect but the lack of real political discourse(oposing views like....) on public as well as private level seems to rime pourly with all the claims of freedom central....

Sure, in times of war you need to unite.
But was it any different before?

Seems to me to rich and mighty decides the political agenda in the US.
Wich aint really my kind of freedom, which is ok as i dont live in the US.

However its a bit scary from my point of view considering the superpower position and so on and so forth.....

Can you edit that one more time to add a point? :)

all other things being equal. Would you feel safer in a country with a 10/100,000 suicide rate or a 10/100,000 homicide rate?

No, a guy that wrote a book titled "Stupid White Men ...and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation!" definitely wouldn't be trying to demonize the nation.

heh that's not demonizing the country.. Chomsky may be a different story though :)

That's odd that you say that.

The US is full of opposing political discourse. You can simply turn on the evening news or read any newspaper to watch stories and read editorials and comments that are decidedly negative towards any particular point-of-view whether it be the war, the Republicans, the Democrats, government finance, or social policies.

Hell, follow the campaigning of the potential Democratic candidates if you want to hear voices opposing the current US administration.

I watched the news just last night and there were more negative stories towards government than positive ones. Positive news stories don't keep most people's attention very long.