50 :321GFY

51 :BangBang: :BangBang: :BangBang: :BangBang:

oi you.... wheres you're sunshine band?

I've already read it and what has it go to do with anything..
Sure that movie is propaganda just like the website all KC's facts come from..

The only thing I learned from that movie is that it isn't the number of guns in a country that lead to the number of gun murders.

Michael Moore's hypothesis was that it was that the media played a role. I don't know if that's true but wouldn't surprise me.

I shot them with the missle launcher my doctor gave me during my last checkup.

mikeyboy moore is just another one of our obese american citizens who will no doubt die of congestive heart failure due to the four spare tires he carries with him everywhere around his gut.

its a shame the fucker won that award for this film because quite frankly i wouldnt piss on the guy if he were on fire.. thats how much i dislike the dood.

I WOULD piss on him if he were on fire... I'd just stop before I completely put out the flames.

fair play to you then - they only held you back anyway imho :thumbsup

now down to business, whats this traffic juicer all about then? looks interesting but i wanna know how i control what traffic i filter coz for instance, japanese and chinese traffic i would like to keep am i able to say i only want to filter county1, country2, country3 etc and say i want to keep country4, country5, country6 et al?

I wish we could vote US Citizens out of this country.

its funny how people will accept the most blatently flawed and slanted arguments as long as it is consistent with their views and opinions. if you don't like americans, that's fine. but using Michael Moore to make a point is not helping your argument any. he is targeting people just like you.. profiting from people just like you, manipulating people just like you and getting obscenely rich from people just like you.

kinda ironic when you think about it.

Oh god! How could I forget?!?

Yeah, we can do any custom filtering profile you want. You just need to email us to get it setup.

In fact, we're beta testing a new feature right now that you'd probably like. Several people are making a couple extra grand a month with it without even touching their existing links or pulling any of their traffic from existing sponsors. :)

kc at paycounter.com

sweet thanks dude ill drop you an email sometime tomorrow probably :thumbsup

what is the argument? try reading the thread first, I know it's long and boring.

I haven't made a single argument. I have just stated a single fact, a lot more people in the United States (when adjusted for population) get murdered by guns. Do you dispute this? yes or no?

I find it ironic that he blames the media for using fear to sell their stories and generate interest, but he's not guilty of doing the same thing.

Has anybody read his book?

http://www.competition-transport.com/moore.jpg

Please stop using this argument. Im sure people in south america and cuba would love to go the USA, but if you ask people who live in scandinavia, spain, england, france, germany or any other country with good living standards they arent very interested in moving to the US.

Southern europe has a huge problem with illegal immigrants from africa, these people dont give a shit if the go to the USA or Spain. They just want to get a better life, and to think that because a bunch of poor mexicans wants to immigrate to the US you somehow live in this amazing nation that is better than everywhere else is silly.

I dont really understand why you want a gun so bad in the first place. Its gotta suck to go threw life worrying about what could happend all the time.

Compared to the countries you cited, yes. Does it have the highest number of gun related deaths (adjusted)? No.

Some one tell this is just a wind up?

No, we do not dispute this, but what the heck does it matter if they are killed by GUN or KNIFE??!

To be honest, IF I had to choose the way I am killed, I'll take a gun shot in my head over a knif stabbing or the like any time!

It has to do with this bogus perception of the United States as a nation full of gunslinging yahoos. We've got people right here in this thread saying the movie paints the USA that way and that the movie affected their view of the US.

Now you're just making shit up. The website KC cites gives links and references to its information sources, many of which are official agencies from each country. The website also states that the USA has a high incidence of violent death. If the site is all about propoganda it would never admit something like that. Throughout the site, information is laid out in orderly, understandable columns with only the occasional brief paragraph trying to explain unflattering numbers. Where the site is referencing suicdes, it makes that clear. Where the site is referencing only murders, it makes that clear. Where the site is referencing total numbers of any kind of murder or death, it makes that clear.

Clarity is a lot more than can be said about Bowling for Columbine.

Michael Moore is the media. He spliced together a mass of half-truths, propoganda and borderline lies, passed it off as a documentary (which it is not) and helped create a wild shitstorm of publicity and hype around it. He continues to whore himself out to the media as fast as humanly possible with TV and radio interviews and public appearances. Michael Moore is just another hypocritical media puppet slut who will do whatever it takes to advance his private agenda and the balance in his checking account. There is no substance to Michael Moore, there is only glossy hype. Shiny shit is still shit.

SpaceAce

The media is a tool and he knows how to use it obviously.

reminds me of a rock star with a number 1 hit
"you are all a bunch of fucking idiots"

sorry SpaceAce you obviously don't know propaganda when it's looking straight at you. Just because a site gives references doesn't make it credible.

Yes, that must be it. I don't know propoganda when I see it. It must be that new double-secret reverse psychology propoganda where they say "The USA has high violent deaths" in order to make the USA seem safer. Very clever, worthy of Goebbels.

SpaceAce

Actually compared to those countries the US does have a higher number of gun related deaths (since you've decided now to include suicide, which i never meant to)..

Do you want to provide evidence to the contrary?

Interesting choice of countries you have there:

Some Scandinavian Countries have HIGHER violent death rates than the US!!!

Finland: 30.72
Denmark: 23.46
United States: 18.57

Look at the suicide rates of some of the other countries you mentioned:

France: 20.79
Sweden: 15.75
Germany: 15.64
United States: 12.06

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!!

England and Spain both rank well on the same scale:

Overall Violent death rates:
England: 9.53
Spain: 8.97

And their Suicide rates are around 7.5

Again, all of those figures are deaths per 100,000 people per year.. and were taken from http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

oh so now it's violent death not gun death..

but to quote your own website on gun deaths.

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html


All I'm saying is the US has too many gun deaths, and I think that is the main point of Michael Moore's movie. Too many people in your country die from guns. Just admit it :)

Sure...

Firearm Homicides:

Brazil: 10.58
Estonia: 8.07
Mexico: 9.88
N. Ireland: 5.24
United States: 3.72

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

I agree! Let's tell all the violent criminals to put down their guns and use knives and baseball bats instead. The numbers will stay the same, the weapon will change.

What's the difference? At least with guns the victim is put out of his misery quickly!

If those statistics were for tsunami deaths or being-eaten-by-a-tiger deaths the chart would look a lot different. The <I>real</I> truth is that too many people in too many countries die violent deaths and it doesn't matter whether your are shot, stabbed, run over by a car, beaten to death or strangled with a shoelace.

So the USA has a higher gun-related death rate. How many other violent ways are there to die where the United States wouldn't even make the list? Quite a few, I'd guess. The fixation on guns is an artifact of unreasonable emotion and nothing else.

Edit: Also, fear. People fear what they don't understand and what you will see time and again in these threads is, "Why do you need a gun," or, "I don't see why Americans need to go around armed." The gun issue image becomes larger than the issue itself because of fear, especially fear of a behavior you don't understand.

SpaceAce

Another interesting point... Compare the crime rate in England versus the crime rate in the US:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/crvs.htm

UK has a overall lower violent death rate than the US, but the US has a lower Assault, Robbery, Burglary and Auto Theft Rates than the UK in recent years.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/htm...96/cjuse01.gif

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/htm...96/cjuse02.gif

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/htm...96/cjuse03.gif

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/htm...96/cjuse04.gif

The US actually has a higher homicide rate than nearly every western country.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

Now you might wonder why the US has a higher rate of homicide considering it's the richest country in the world. It's then when you breakdown the stats and see that gun homicides are 10x more than most other western countries (when adjusted for population) that you think you might find a reason..

How is that emotional?

I'm sure if it was a tsunami list the numbers would look much different, but this thread was about Bowling for Columbine, where the major theme was that too many people in the US die of gun murders. This was his central theme, you can discredit the details in his movie (there are certainly inaccuracies) but his central proposition is true.

Get ready for, "Those aren't deaths! Deaths are worse!"

If you live in a city of 2,000,000 people, which would make you feel less safe: four murders in a year and a handful of burglaries, thefts and assaults or two murders in a year and thousands of burglaries, thefts and assaults?

SpaceAce

Now only western countries get included in the comparisons? People from non western countries are insignificant and shouldn't be included? Is that what you're suggesting?

i have not seen the movie but i suspect it was more a political statement about people for and against the right to own guns.

you can lie with statistics anyway you want.

you may as well continue by comparing rice deaths in vietnam to rice deaths in the US to make the point that we should ban rice.
or that fewer rice deaths makes the USA a safer place to be than Vietnam.
:sleep

I notice in the UK that the people are becoming lazy which I beleive contributes to the increase in crime figures.

I watched a show on what was described to be a poor family and a ritch family who lived in the same street.

The poor family said they wanted this that and the other though never mentioned they would work to acheive it.

On the other hand the ritch family said to their kids you can have this that and the other if you work hard.

Oh BTW the ritch kid was mugged twice during the filming

The US also has more rats than any other countries who's name start with the letter U!

Time for bed.. I need to wake up early to shoot at the paperboy when he rides his bike by.

Night... It was fun :)

I was only ever talking about Western countries.

:BangBang: night :)

See its true,its true, you shoot anything that moves ;-)

Is that why when I played paper boy on the comadore 64 I kept falling off?

those weren't my statistics they were from the site KC posted.

I didn't say the numbers are emotional, I said the arguments are. You proved my point by using your last sentences to once again make an issue of guns causing "too many" deaths. How many is too many? Does it become too many when the accidental deaths and murders outweigh the self-defense numbers? Is one gun death too many? If so, isn't one baseball bat death too many?

What is so important about a gun death? Does a gun death somehow cause a person to die more than once? One person dead is one person dead. If you went to an area in the USA where large numbers of violent gun deaths occur and took away their guns all you would get is a sharp rise in stabbing deaths. If you went to a violent area of a country where no guns are allowed and took away their knives you would get an increase in beating deaths. Guns may be responsible for <I>gun deaths</I> but they aren't responsible for deaths. It's fantasy on the level of Alice in Wonderland to suppose that people will stop killing each other once you take their guns away.

You're right, this thread is about Bowling for Columbine but all these other related issues are germaine to the topic. Why didn't Michael Moore choose to make a "documentary" about how many people are killed by automobiles each year or how many people drown in their swimming pools? Why not a movie about stabbing deaths or beating deaths? The answer is simple: guns push people's emotional buttons.

It's 6:30AM, here. If you don't see anything more from me tonight I went to sleep. Bump it tomorrow if you have anything important you want me to read.

SpaceAce

Mark my words. In the next few years, watching or reading Michael Moore is going to be as much of a litmus test for stupid white men as Rush Limbaugh is today.

Finally the left has found an idiot as big as the one on the right. I would be as embarassed to take Michael Moore seriously as Rush Limbaugh. If you think the "ditto-heads" are idiots what about those who take a film-maker's faux documentary seriously? He's a parotting talking head.

Moore's social analysis is no different than quoting Limbaugh's social analysis. These guys are exactly the same but playing for different teams. They are multi-media extremely biased entertainers with no credentials other than popularity.

ok I'll certainly buy that bowling for columbine was emotional spin on the gun issue.

I don't know that all arguments on gun murders have to be though if you stick to the numbers.

my hypothesis would be that guns contribute to more murders because it's easier to kill someone with a gun. If they have to resort to using knives, or bats a lot fewer people would die, purely because it's harder to kill someone by these means.

sleep for me too :-)

How does one "die" from Rice?

i tried looking for stats comparing the use of sarcasm between countries and couldn't. your on your own. sorry.

:thumbsup Well said.

I am an advocate of tighter gun control here in the U.S. and I thought "Bowling For Columbine" was one of the biggest piles of shit I have ever seen excreted by the media. So obviously bias and playing with the truth it is an embarassment.

Fuck Michael Moore. Fuck him in his stupid ass.

Actually I just remembered this article from the Guardian few months back that I found quite interesting..

Bhtuan crime wave