loverboy

it seems VISA has controlled some aspects in the adult bizz

Carrie

Okay, eros.
I'll go on thinking that Visa is a company and can make its own decisions regarding what's good for its business and bottom line, and you go on thinking that it's some massive conspiracy that we never had any control over.

Would you like some black helicopters and sunglasses to help you justify the actions of Visa?
How about blinders instead? They might work better - then you really won't be able to see all of the scamming methods practiced by the biggest names in this business that put adult websites squarely in Visa's crosshairs.
Happy delusions...

eroswebmaster

Once again...quit flapping and listen for a bit.

No one is saying it is ONLY the government doing this, what they are saying is that there are a combination of factors at play here.

Yes you have rampant fraud in this industry, yes you have rampant CB's in this industry, yes porn does make up a small % of Visa's biz...HOWEVER that does not discount the political atmosphere that we live in today vs what we lived in just a few short years ago.

Didn't the supreme court rule that a CC was sufficient enough to verify someone's age?

Now comes along Visa and you can no longer state that.

Hmm....kinda strange isn't it?

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p00p

Yup.

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eroswebmaster

No see..you're only thinking in black and white and not shades of grey which this world lives in.

It's not just one or the other...once again it's a combination of factors.

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eroswebmaster

COPA got struck down...but now VISA is doing the Job that COPA couldn't.

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sperbonzo

Actually, it's not strange why VISA is going to go after AVS. Some AVS sites have the worst disclosure out there - convincing customers that this was free...and putting that on a split hidden frame, where you would have to know it was there, then scroll down to find out that you were actually being charged $40 for a megasite.

The supreme court said that businesses COULD accept CC as proof of age.... it never said that any business HAD to.

eroswebmaster

Yes but the point IS...that Visa will no longer allow you to state that.

Regardless of the shady practices of cross selling or so called "free" avs systems.

Even if they cleaned up every aspect of it they can still no longer claim that they are using the CC as an age verifier.

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Theo

Carrie, there's no doubt that from our side as an industry we had cases of fraud towards to our clients, but fraud exists in all aspects of doing business online. Only these two industries receive the heat. As I said,there's no other activity so unstable than online porn.

Avatar

does anybody have any links to the changes around AVS systems lately?

Does anybody have any actual FACTS and not bullshit time consuming gfy rumors?

sperbonzo

That's true. I think that on a lot of these issues, Visa has seen that since last September that companies are just wiggling around looking for ways to get around these restrictions. (understandably), and so VISA is just clamping down that much harder. (also understandably)

Indeed

Unfortunately...NO

Carrie

Eros, it was just a matter of time before some attorney hauled an adult webmaster into court and the webmaster said their site was protected by credit cards; it wasn't their fault that Visa is giving credit cards (or debit cards which work as a Visa card) to underage minors who were then allowed to access the explicit pornographic material.

That puts the responsibility on Visa's shoulders, and Visa isn't going to have that.

Visa is in the right with AVS systems - they're saying "we're using your VISA card to verify your age", which is a lie now because minors have cards.

America is sue-happy. Imagine all of the lawsuits that would suddenly spring up against Visa if just one person successfully argued that they suffered mental damages after their young son used his Visa Buxxx card to access porn sites and then would never leave his room, wouldn't go to church, etc.
God. It would be like flies swarming on shit - kinda funny to think about, actually. ;)

sperbonzo

do you realize some of the levels that the fraud has reached? I won't even talk about the stuff that is considered "normal" in this industry that you would freak out about if your local supermarket pulled it......I'm talking about some players out there that will take a database of customers and bang the cards through one account after another, sometimes through unsuspecting processors also, for absolutely NO reason, and walk away with tens of millions of dollars. This happens a lot more than people realize

Carrie

The latest "victims" are FreeNetPass and SexCheck - notices are inside of their webmasters' areas and they've emailed notices to their webmasters as well.
The letters posted here are just copied from those notices.

Edit: SexCheck emailed their notice, not sure if they posted it in their webmasters' area.
FNP and their other site, AFL (Access For Life) did both.

Theo

so? take actions against the specific events, not against the whole industry.

http://www.domainzoo.com
http://www.domainpeople.com

two years ago they scammed 10000s webmasters for many million dollars by selling pre-registrations of .biz and .info domains. They do not even bothered to register them for you even when the domains were available for everyone. In my case my C.C. was getting billed by two different co. , i never received my domains, some of them probably are still available for registration (go figure).

I never saw anyone taking any action against 'em and of course none ever thought to push the domain registr. industry.

I can give you 100s examples of such mainstream fraud. If I ask you the same for our industry you'll tell me babenet and 3-4 more names.

TheSenator

My stats are way up this period with CyberAge......anyway...here is good article about the goverment's role with credit cards(old article but still relavent) http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=34.

Trust me.... the people in power "Right Wing Conservatives" have a say in how VISA/Mastercard policies should be.....

Veterans Day

WRONG, just plain wrong. Coming from banking and mortgage business for the last 27 years I will tell you to research and think before posting this non-sense

TheSenator

Carrie = no clue

CHMOD

You are absolutely right.

It is also my opinion that this is all due to Bush.
Didn't he said that he was going to fight the adult industry ?

That illuminated think is has a mission from god.

Doesn't he think that he is "good" and all muslim all "evil" ?
He is against sex if your not married, against gay, against abortion.

To me, he is simply mentally retarded.

TheDoc

PAN!C

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Honeyslut

I wish Acacia would figure that out..

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1900guru

Guys and Gals,

Maybe I am fucked in the head, or should just "Go fuck myself", but yes this does present a problem, but insted of stewing on the problem why not work on a solution ?

Where ever there is a new road block there is a path around it.

Here is an easy solution for AVS's:

Become a Free Host ( But not really a free host as far as Visa is concerned )

Switch over all clients to your *free hosting*

Pay a smaller percentage to cover your costs

Have all webmasters simply redirect their surfers to this new domain owned by the AVS

Rewrite your terms so that you, the AVS, own the content uploaded in partnership with the webmaster.

Then you are running a partner program paying the webmaster
a percentage of YOUR sales and not collecting for a third party.

Does this not sound do-able ?

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Mutt

i'm sure this is the strategy some AVS's will try but it ain't gonna wash. Do you not understand yet? VISA has this industry on the run and has it all figured out, u can run but u can no longer hide, they know the tricks.

offering free hosting does nothing, it's still a site run by a third party webmaster - u get access to my site when you join SuperAVS or SuperEntertainmentNetwork.

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Mutt

and the more the scumbags try to dance around VISA the angrier they get with everybody in this biz - until one day they just say 'fuck all of you, BUH BYE!'. alot of great hard working honest people are going to lose millions of dollars because of the scumbags.

that is sad. stop whining about VISA, they are a far distant second when it comes to villains in this affair.

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WWRay

I have been watching this very closley , and in my opinion , I believe there is really no conspiricy

The Card companies have said from the begining , Clean up your act ,
- lower the charge backs.
- Make each website responsible as an individual ..seeya Avs
- Monitor the changes

The good news is if you have low charge backs , run your business honestly , you will be ok ....

Scam the system , and you will be coding Html for food !!

Thats the way we see it

Ray
www.watchersweb.com

Paul Markham

Very true, if Bush and Ashcr**t had their way Visa/MC would have pulled the plug totally.

Visa/MC are saying "Do business our way or go find another CC card company who will accept you"

But it's not just fraud and CB, it's also some of the material some people put out. Maybe Visa/MC do not want to be associated with Skat, Incest, Rape, Watersports, Max Hardcore, Kiddie porn, etc.

Will it cost us some webmasters? Yes

Will it cost us some surfers? No

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shermo

This may be the foreshadowing of some serious changes in the adult biz. I'm just glad I got out of AVS months ago.

Let's cross our fingers that this gets better before it gets worse.

Paul Markham

No maybe about it.

You are the problem not the solution.

Listen to WWRay and Mutt.

Visa are saying "Clean up or go" idiots like you will have them saying "So Long"

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polish_aristocrat

I agree, the whole pre-registration was a total scam !
I registered a name, but can't access it now !
And all the fake bogus trademarks not verified at all - if you would only see my letters to Affilias and ICANN.
But, .... after that I actually got in the adlut biz.

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solonline

Well while I fully sympathise with webmasters who run multiple AVS sites, long term will this benifit the industry, less cheap porn, less scams. And yep they are ways round this if you are prepared to invest time money and effort.
Your own domain, with your own sites, nominal charge 20 bucks a year, u become your own AVS, promote your partner proggys, and keep within the rules.....

For our sites we will miss AVS as conversions have always been high, but like everything these days, if you can diversfy, and grow with the changes your fucked. We are having to do this and on the back of huge losses from Globill.

But do this we will. Think IDEAS, not just "VISA OR BUSXX" Is out for adult. Thats old news.

Hammer

I spoke with Chris Mallick, CEO of Epoch at Internext and he told me that there would be no AVS's operating by the end of August.

Of course, as with SexCheck, AVS companies can still remain in business running their own sites but they won't be processing for any sites that they don't own.

Cassie

visa, in conjunction with AOL, is launching a TEEN VISA credit card. this credit card will work similar to a debit card. the difference is that parents will have to add money to the card once the balance becomes too low.

now if visa is "looking out" for their business. why the hell are they launching a visa card for teens and how do they think (when parents have to be co-signers on this card) that they are going to keep their fraud and cb's down? parents can't control their own card usage, they are going to control a horny teens card usage?!?!

someone explain this to me in logical terms!

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Johny Traffic

some of us have been telling people this for weeks

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Greg B

Cherry, you're the ONLY person other than me I think that found that article and know about that case. I could go on for HOURS about this shit.

Good lookin' out!

Carrie

Lots of stuff to catch up on.

Cassie - they've been marketing these cards to teens for a while (although not in conjunction with AOL). They're called Visa Buxx cards.

1900 - Many AVS programs already do this, but I don't think Visa will fall for it as the domains are still owned by 3rd party webmasters. I wouldn't trust switching my WHOIS info over to an AVS program to make it 'appear' to be owned by the AVS.

The Hammer - I'm giving them until the end of the year. I think by Christmas, you'll only see the Big 3 (Cyberage, SexKey, and AdultCheck) still around along with the ones who have always been located offshore, like ProAdult.

Cassie

AOL Launches Visa Teen

This article is less then a month old for anyone interested.

Lets give students cc's!

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baddog

exactly.

and for the record, we are not going anywhere but up which is evidenced by the increase in webmasters joining, sites submitted, and surfers joining.

scoreman

Carrie, there are laws in all 50 states limiting the amount of interest that can be charged consumers, both on revolving credit as well as installment loans. Its the chief reason loan sharking is illegal.

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scoreman

I agree with all you have said but let me be the devil's advocate for a moment. The conspiracy theory that has been outlined by Carrie as well as the one where the Bush Admin offers the card associations relief on anti-trust issues in exchange for restricting pornography are widely circulated for a simple reason, the pieces of that puzzle fit. The fact that the adult industry has provided so many reasons why the card associations could restrict or eliminate adult wholesale is the true beauty of this conspiracy theory. Not only could the card associations do this and reap rewards from the Bush Administration, but they could also offer legitimate business reasons why they did it, insulating themselves from litigation.

For the record, I also believe in UFOs, that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone, and that oil is the reason why teenagers from our country are dying on foreign soil today. What are the chances I also believe the government is capable of a conspiracy to crush the adult market without ever requiring a single hearing before an appellate court on first amendment issues?

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freeadultcontent

Lol, ok.

First didnt someone make a bet a ways back with lens and such saying AVS's were gone (inside info) but he lost just because of the day he said it would happen? Everything else did fall into place though.

Second no content provider in the world (ok some will) will not alter their licenses enough to give and AVS as well as a webmaster a license for their content unless they super jack the rates through the fucking roof. Then you would need to wonder why the AVS people just do not buy the content themselves as a special order and launch some sort of build your own tour program like ARS did, and let webmasters build tours for one huge AVS set of super sites? Cheaper for the AVS in general and it follows VISAs rules.

Third Visa can only charge so much interest or it becomes illegal, under loan sharking. This percentage varies by state, and keep in mind those check loan companies do not charge 315% interest, it is a service fee.

Fourth Yes the Government could be working with Visa, yes they do shit like this. You put the math together. Government wants to kill this industry, Visa wants tougher bankruptcy laws, forget about the anti trust shit.

Fifth Even with Visa bucks ect, teens having cards. It would not harm us. We as an industry are only required to go so far as to determine proof of age, the courts have said a credit card/checking account was good enough faith on our behalf. It is the parents responsibility on what their kids to with it, the parent has to get the card for them and personally load the card as well.


Cliff notes:

1. Past bet with lensman, inside info about avs, lost only cause of date.
2. AVS would never work deal with content providers. Look for AVS to turn into supersites with BYOT ala ARS.
3. Interest rates are capped per state.
4. Government wants porn dead, Visa wants bankruptcy reform.
5. Visa bucks - no harm us, parental responsibility not visa's.

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scooby doo as scooby does

You want a real doomsday scenario ?

No one outside the AVS's have actually seen the documents outlining what VISA requires of them. In fact, this may not be the end of the regulations for AVS's anyway. Supposing ultimately VISA wants URL level control (much as done with pay sites) as part of there 'brand protection' strategy (as well as the obvious CBR thing). VISA wants to be sure each individual web site doesn't use any content or practises they disapprove of when encouraging customers to use their cards. AVS's have to charge their webbies $500 to register each AVS site. That would presumably put many AVS's out of business, or at least shrink them considerably to virtually nothing. If that does happen, where do you think it goes from there ? I'll tell you, URL level control ? Affiliates may be next....... Think of the knock-on to TGP's etc.

Now that would be industry shaking, and funnily enough, if you think it right thru, probably the end results would be quite close to what the current US government seems to want but can't quite get via legal means.

I really really hope not, but in the current climate, who the hell knows.....

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wargames

avs are getting screwed. Whos next ?

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Greg B

It's strange alright. Next thing y'know they'll be implanting microchips and nannites into our bodies for identification purposes.

wait....one minute..

Greg B

Yeah, that's what they said when they first issued credit cards and then changed the 'usury' laws during the Nixon administration.

Get wise bro, banks and their hidden controllers run the world.

dropped9

Sobe?

Tipsy

There's rumours already. Even more interesting times ahead if they prove to be true

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dropped9

Rumors? Spill what you know....!

Tipsy

Just exactly that - a few rumours probably very unreliable about 3rd party billing and affiliate programs and their possible demise. With all the CC BS floating around they may well just be someones imagination going into overdrive. Just have to wait and see though I suppose.

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Indeed

Good point but don't forget that VISA isn't everything. If VISA and Mastercard eventually pull the plug, you can expect webmasters starting using check processing a lot more. And if most porn sites use check processing, surfers will get used to it quickly. I think check processing isn't working very well right now simply due to the fact that VISA and Mastercard are in the game. If they pull the plug, you can expect check processors to pop up from everywhere and the technology would probably be improved a lot ...