aiken

I would be getting behind Ibill and cheering them on, but I'm too busy with the customer support issues raised by them double billing every single one of my credit card rebills on 7/14. Oh, and a bunch of checks from either 7/15 or 7/17 (they're not sure which).

They did automatically refund the double billing, but that can take days to show up on a statement, and even then many people won't notice it.

Anyways, word is that the MC announcement isn't all that big of a deal, so the Ibill email may be more ominous sounding than it needed to be.

Cheers
-b

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the real magoo

You came to see the mobscene
I know it isn't your scene
It's better than a sex scene
And it's so fucking obscene
Obscene, yeah

HardProfits

Bingo !

matulo

well, lots of uncorfirmed rumors around ...
One of them was you can't use AMEX for pornsites, there's ane european processor that allows rebills with AMEX.

Another things come about Visa and MC, if VISA US is fucked up, move to EU and get EU processor which listens to VISA EU rules.
Same applies for MC.

Lots of wm are responsible for this shit, fake sites, cross sales, free trials converted into 40$ recurring, etc etc etc ... just an advice for you - EAT THE SHIT YOU'VE MADE !

__________________
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steffie

Last year I posted a notice I received from Visa regarding my card. Telling me to register my Visa card online or I won't be able to use is anymore for Online Purchases. I than called Visa and they told me that it won't take effect until the end of 2004, when everytime you use your Card online it had to be verified. That's about all I can think off.

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rocki

i know some ppl are not for cross sales... if your in walgreens, and you buy gum that is an up sale... which is simialr to a xsale... and you may think xsales are making our charge backes high... all you have to do is make xsales and free trial, $1 dollar... just grow with the industry....

polish_aristocrat

so basically Verified by Visa from 2004 for all online transactions = the end of rebiling customers...

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BRISK

Visa didn't invest millions developing the Verified By Visa system for nothing.

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polish_aristocrat

right, but perhaps it could also happen that f.e Visa bans rebills
( = reguires high-risk merchants using Verifed By Visa ) but Mastercard still tolerates them...

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socalcash

Daniel,

This quote here blatanly applies to accepting future payments. I see nothing in this message relating to recurring billing at all.
It would appear to me they are planning on adjusting the way people signup to adult sites?

"iBill has put forth considerable effort and resources to negotiate a viable alternative for our clients to ensure they can continue to accept MasterCard as a payment type."

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NETbilling

Rocki,

I understand your point here but if your example were accurate,the Walgreens cashier would sneak the gum in your bag and then charge you for it without your permission. That is basically what pre-checked cross sells are, right?

Mitch

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Brown Bear

Nice analogy

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socalcash

Sausage,

What is the new rumor going around?

-A

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Shap

Hardprofits, are you seeing any double billings for the 14th? You still happy about getting a mastercard heads up when every rebill of yours was double billed on the 14th? I know i'm extremely irrate.

Sausage

Sorry man, but honestly I want to play this one close to my chest. I suggest you start looking at ways to process without visa though. AVS is dead btw. They will hang in for a while, but building sites for AVS is now a waste of time.

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fiveyes

Visa, like a good whore, took our money before she fucked us...

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socalcash

No offense Sausage...

But, I cant imagine that u know information regarding Visa that nobody else knows. U must have someone closer then epoch at Visa. I cant imagine that Visa would stop processing for porn when they just spent the time with making everybody register and on top of that made this new %1.

For u to make that comment your going to have to back it up or it has no value as far as Im concerned.

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HardProfits

Not sure exactly what your are asking, but I didnt see a doubling of anything in my CMI for the 14th

thetrog

I wouldn't count on that. Just because Visa made everybody register doesn't mean they still won't cut off adult.

It's pretty clear that Visa (and MC) do what they want to do, when they want to do it. No matter what they promise or indicate to processors or whomever, they can change their mind in a heartbeat. And have done so many times.

Maybe they're just tired of the fraud and chargeback problems in the adult biz and are simply done with it.

Maybe they've decided the profits aren't worth it if, just as a hypothetical example, it's causing a huge portion of their problems with chargebacks, fraud, etc. and they want those hassles to go away.

Sausage

Fair enough mate.

From what i have been told these are just tabled suggestions. I was ready to discard the one about not processing for porn (roll back of adult), but now I'm really not sure.

How can you be sure others don't know of changes coming, but are playing their cards close to their chest?

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socalcash

Its very simple what Visa and Mastercard will do.

They will cut out all the bullshit and make people buy porn only from respectable sites offering respectable content.

This industry is alot cleaner then its ever been and its only going to get better. Do we really need to go thru the list of sites that offered shit content & charged 49.95.

It does nobody anygood to sit here and discuss what they heard from their brother and sisters nephew and why Visa is going to stop processing. America could fall also. This industry does not need spin doctors. It needs good business men who want to offer a reputable good(by liberal standards.)

This industry is here to stay and its only going to cleaner, sharper and more profitable. We as a company(SoCalCash) see nothing but good times ahead with a couple tweaks.

Have fun tonight. Look forward to meeting all u in FL.

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Carrie

Why not?
They made everyone pay $750 at *each* processor, and now they're saying that having a high CB rate at one processor affects your transaction capability at your other processors.

So what was the point in registering and paying separately at each processor when in the end, they planned on treating *all* processors as one account?

Everyone who paid multiple processors just got fucked out of a nice chunk of money for a reason that's now been rendered useless by the new 1% plan and its associated fine print.

Carrie

Who is going to be the judge of which sites are 'respectable'?
Visa? Heh... if it were up to them there wouldn't *be* any adult sites. ;)

I agree with you though, I think the industry's going to get a lot cleaner. I also see a lot of really GOOD things coming and I'm excited as hell about it.
It's going to be one rocky fucking road for a while, but sweet as all hell for those who live through it.
You can almost smell the money flowing back into the industry... it's not quite as strong as the smell of sweaty panic though, LOL.

Resolute

Ohhh Pleeeese !!!

Resolute.
www.boybucks.net
ICQ 325624405

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Resolute

Fair Comment - SocalCash

Resolute.
www.boybucks.net
ICQ 325624405

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AdultKing

Am i correct in my belief that all these changes affect the US arms of the card associations only ?

Kimmykim

No, there are new limits for intl trans as well.

thetrog

Sorry, but you're deluding yourself.

Apparently you don't realize that there are very few acquiring banks who will process adult anymore. Many acquiring banks who used to process for adult are now out of it.

Why? Because they were tired of the chargebacks and fraud, and the resulting fines from Visa and MC.

Did those acquiring banks sit down and say: "Let's figure out who the clean adult sites are and weed out the bad ones." Did they bother with that?

No. They just cut off adult completely, both the good and the bad, because the problems far outweighed the benefits.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think Visa and MC can do the same.

polish_aristocrat

yes, but on the other hand, the new 1% limit is going to eliminate most of the scammers and only the honest paysites
( programs ) will survive.

So there won't be a problem of who is honest and who's not anymore.

BTW, Sausage, is your friend at Visa someone who can have influence on that decisions?
I don't think he's an ordinary employee, since he wouldn't know all the "secret" Visa plans.

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thetrog

Once again, you're deluding yourself.

Mastercard's 1 percent limit has been around for three years.

Yet so many processors have gone over so many times that MC is threatening to put them out of business. This is why PayPal pulled out, and others have simply disappeared.

I wouldn't count on Visa's new one percent rule solving any problems either.

There's no evidence that a one percent chargeback limit eliminates scammers in the industry.

Sausage

You make it sound so much like a 2nd rate espionage film. lol.

Not exactly sure whether he has any influence, but he is at some sort of management level and definitely not one of the top execs. I would be seriously amazed if others didn't know more than they are letting on. as I said before, lots of people playing their cards close to their chest.

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Kimmykim

There is definitely no proof that doing anything other than pulling out of the business stops fraud, I'll agree with you there trog, in a heartbeat.

The Amex situation was a bit different though, the very nature of their system left them wide open for serious fraud they could not control. Same thing with Paypal's system.

The adult industry is by no means the only culprit, I'll wager (pun intended) that gaming, travel and a couple of other industries take just as much a hit as adult does with chargebacks, if not a bigger one.

The system itself is inherently flawed for use on the internet and the card companies are just as much to blame for teaching consumers how to commit what I'll call 'friendly fraud' at the end of the day as the scammers are for perpetrating their own brand of fraud. You couple that with resellers that will say anything to a consumer in order to collect 40 bucks on a 4 dollar sale and we arrive where we sit right now.

Personally I think the only way that Visa or MC will ever clear it up is to dump it altogether. Every internet system that's a problem. Of course they would then have to admit the sheer size and scope of the problem and face their own roles in it.

So I guess we shall see what happens.

thetrog

On this we agree.

I hope Visa/MC doesn't dump adult, but all of the signs are there that it's definitely a possibility.

Anyone who says this will never happen is fooling themselves.

Brown Bear

I think a more realistic scenario is that Visa will say that all high-risk transactions must be processing through the Verified By Visa system by the end of 2004.

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Kimmykim

In order for that to happen, they'd first have to agree the VbV can be used for high risk internet. Not in the can as of yet for sure because they've already said no once. Hopefully they can be persuaded to change their minds. Of course that would also mean their disclosure on VbV to the consumers should change.

thetrog

The question is: Did they say no to adult (high risk) or no to recurring billing?

I thought they said no to recurring billing.

Someone else posted awhile ago that it might depend upon the chargeback ratios of the individual processor as well.

And isn't Ibill offering VBV? So wouldn't that include high risk?

Brown Bear

Kimmy, nobody really answered this when I asked before, but maybe you'll know more.

Why does Epoch have Verified By Visa logos on their website and on their sign-up pages for paysites?

https://wnu.com/secure/form.cgi?m15+qmm15m1+a+eap

Thats a sign-up page for www.qmov.com (notice the V by V logo at the bottom)

http://www.epochsystems.com (again notice the prominent V by V logo)

Whats the story?

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Kimmykim

As I understand it -- keep in mind this is just my understanding since it's not ePassporte -- there was initially a go ahead for the trial/first trans to be VbV. Then there was a reversal of that decision. Now it seems to be back and forth, back and forth, but I haven't asked about it in a few weeks with all the other crap going on that's more important.

I'd love to see it happen, even if it is just on initial transactions -- however, *I* personally don't know that the banks and their customer service departments can or will go for it, and at the end of the day if enough of them don't like it, then it's out.

I had to look really hard on the B of A website to find the rules for the consumer using it -- I was ordering some flowers online and after my purchase I got a pop for it, directly from B of A - nowhere in the pop did it mention that you were giving up your rights to charge back if you did it. That was in the fine fine print buried in the website at that time and I assume it still is hidden in there.

I simply do not see how the banks can claim zero liability to the consumer and then not explain very clearly what VbV does and doesn't do for the rights of the consumer, in plain words, at the point where the consumer makes the choice, within a certain distance of the box where the info is inputted, just like the rules for purchasing online.

*Sigh* of frustration with the entire situation.

I see these rules and regulations and while I understand their purpose for Visa and Mastercard I also do not see the end result anywhere near matching the intention.

Putting a Band-Aid on an amputation does not stop the blood flow, nor should it make the amputee feel better about the loss.

At this point I don't see how the system is going to self-correct, all idiotic rules aside. The card companies perpetuate the fraud JUST AS MUCH AS ANY site does, with their foolishness in creating a society of consumers that feels that they simply don't have to pay, because their bank will give them a break if they say they didn't do it.

To my way of thinking this is like raising a child to believe that he can get in as many scrapes with money or whatever as he wants and that by saying he didn't do it or he didn't mean to do it, he then has no consequences. If I raised my child like that, we'd both be on the streets or in jail soon after.

To hold merchants accountable for situations they cannot control -- and no, I am not saying there are no scams or really bad sites out there -- is simply beyond comprehension to me.

It all just makes me weary.

Brown Bear

OK, soooooooo whats the deal with Epoch having V by V logos on signup pages for a porn site?

I doubt they're processing those transactions using V by V, so is it just there to make the signup page look more secure?

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Brown Bear

?

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HardProfits

With all the info at hand, I feel that this is a very "low" possibility

IN business, anythings possible, but having both Visa and MC say no to adult is waaay down on my Risk management docs

Sausage

Well thought out post.
I honestly feel that the visa and mc situation is one where the left hand doens't know what the right hand is doing. They kinda fell into processing for internet transactions by default. I wonder whether mainstream will feel the brunt of visa changes aswell.

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boobmaster

Shit! I have noticed a significant increase in rebills for the 14th for ALL my pay sites. I had assumed that this was due to problems with ibill. Apparently they had another database crash and are in the process of replicating rebill data in the CMI. I have zero rebills for the 12th and 13th (and I usually get several every day).

Are these are all gonna come back as revokes? If they do, ibill will unboubtedly levy a charge against the master account like they ALWAYS do.

Zprogramz

Ibill totally sucks.

We dumped them long ago because of the poor support and CMI issues. There are many good processors out there that will work hard for your business. Netbilling is our first choice and CCbill is our second. With all of these problems over the past year or so, why stay with Ibill any longer. Haven't you guys given them enough chances?

Z

boobmaster

Greetings all,

Like most of you, I would hate to see rebilling end. But I don't necessarily see it as the end of the world. I run an affiliate program myself and am the webmaster for the official sites of a few well-known pornstars/exotic dancers. Official model sites tend to have a more loyal following than general pay sites do so if recurring billing ended, most of the 'fans' would probably sign up again as soon as their membership expires. Of course, I have no doubt that many of them would find this to be a major incovenience.

Ever since I became an adult webmaster I have wondered when the ride would end. I never bought into the conspiracy theory regarding the US Government and the credit card companies, at least until now. The theory is essentially that the one thing in the world that credit card companies want more than anything else is tougher bankrupsy laws. The federal government can give them that. On the other hand, one of the major things this conservative government wants is an end to internet porn. The credit card companies can give them that. So, if the CC companies either (i) stop processing adult related transaction altogether (e.g., like Pay Pal and American Express) or (ii) regulate us to the point where most adult webmasters won't find it profitable to stay in the business, than the federal government will give them the tougher bankrupsy laws that they have always wanted. Given all the regulations lately, I have to wonder if there may just be some truth to this so-called 'conspiracy theory'. When Bush appointed Ashhahahahaha as AG, I laughed at all the posts on the various boards touting the end of the online porn industry. Ashhahahahaha can't stop internet porn, but Visa sure as hell can (at a minimum they can cripple it significantly).

I am SO SICK of the fucking hypocrasy in this country (since this board is named 'go fuck yourself', I assume I can use the word 'fucking' - LOL). Last I heard 70% of people surfing the net are looking for pictures of 'bar nekid' girls (or 'bar nekid' guys). Some of these people are the same ones signing 'anti-porn' petitions and protesting the moral decay of society. Hell, when the last time I visited my dad in Michigan there was a news story about a pastor (whose church my folks use to attend) who was apparently caught logging into beastie sites and downloading 'farm' porn on his home computer. I recalled listening to this guy's passionate 'anti-porn' surmons in the past. Anyone remember Jimmy Swaggart? We need a strong lobby in Washington to stand up for our friggin' rights. We shouldn't have to put up with this shit!

On the flip side, I can see how we only have ourselves to blame. There are so many friggin' dishonest webmasters out there, most of whom seem to be part of the adult webmaster community. Of course, that goes for the surfers as well. There are a lot of thieves out there. It's no wonder Visa and MC have adopted such stringent policies regarding adult related transactions.

Case in point #1 - I recently encountered a MAJOR case of fraud with one of my affiliates. On one of my sites I noticed a HUGE increase in sales. I investigated and found them all to be coming from a single revsharer. Turns out that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was fradulant. Fortunately, I only lost $50.00 to the asshole before I termimated his account. The chargebacks are still coming in though.

Case in point #2 - I have been an affiliate of Photoclubs for several years. I do well with them but I don't check my stats as offen as I use to. A few weeks ago I got an email from the good people at Photoclubs stating that I had 11 sign ups on a single day and that they were all fradulant. At first I thought they were going to terminate my account (my experience with my own asshole affiliate was fresh in my mind). However, I was told that this guy was a repeat offender and that he had signed up to multiple clubs in the past using stolen cards.

Case in point #3 - I recently got an email from one of my pay site members stating that he had canceled his subscription but was still getting billed. I replied asking him when he canceled his subscription? His reply? LAST FRIGGIN' JULY! Unfortunately, this is an all too common occurance in our business -- a horney surfer who gets all the porn he can from a membership site and then decides he doesn't want to pay for it. If a person is too STUPID to read his fucking CC statement every month, ...... I told him that it is our policy to refund up to 3 months in such cases (which is more than a lot of pay site operators offer). He hasn't emailed me back yet. I suspect the chargebacks will start rolling any time now.

I use to be a baseball card dealer in the early 90s -- back when baseball cards were IN. A lot of poeple made a lot of money back then. Unfortunately, all the Johnny-come-latelys decided they wanted a piece of the pie and they ended up fucking it up for EVERYONE (although it has been rebounding in recent years thanks to Ebay). The baseball card companies had a lot to do with it as well -- overproducing their shit and claiming that it was limited just to make a friggin' buck. Well, I've noticed that those same Johnny-come-latelys have made their way into the adult webmastering biz. Can the end be far behind? Hopefully not. Fortunately, this buisness is a little different than hocking baseball cards. I mean, very few guys are likely to 'gratify' themselves whilst looking at a mint copy of Reggie Jackson's rookie card.

People were paying for sex long before the internet was invented and they will be paying for sex long after it is replace by the next great advancement of mankind. Porn will survive. Hopefully, we will still be able to make money from it.

On a side note, PLEASE get off you asses and VOTE a year from November. And, if we are fortunate enough to actually get a democratic president in 2004 - PLEASE, to the person who is elected, KEEP YOUR SCHLONG IN YOUR PANTS, at least long enough to get a second term.

aiken

You still of the opinion that Ibill did not double bill your customers on the 14th? If so, I'd love to hear more details. It may be that you just didn't see the double bills because the CMI hasn't been accurate since the 14th, at least according to the message you get when logging into the CMI (as of now, 12:17am, 7/21/2003).

My premium rep flat out told me that their system double billed every single CC rebill on the 14th, and double or triple billed check rebills on either the 15th or 17th (he wasn't sure which date).

I know that all of the IPSP's have their problems.... but, really, Ibill consistently leads the pack in technical problems, bad customer service, and general incompetence. Pretending otherwise is just silly.

Cheers
-b

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Carrie

Anyone have any details yet on the ibill webcast where they outline how they're going to save the industry with mastercard?
IIRC the webcast is supposed to be the 23rd, which is wednesday - it's now late monday afternoon and I haven't seen any details on the webcast or how to attend it.