So upsell them in your site.

Oh wait...that's not as effective at fucking people out of $80 as two hard to read, pre-checked, cross sells buried in with a pile of other shit.

Keep rationalizing though. :) Everyone knows those cross sells are pure shit designed to nail people with $80 in charges and hope they don't demand a refund or charge it back.

I understand even $10 bucks is alot for most people.

our charbacks are way under 1% so we must be doing something right and we give them a full month trial for a $1 which might also help.

As far as we go most of our chargebacks are from webmasters trying to scam our system. but thats us I don't know what other programs are having problems with.

but the retention is always the same no matter what price point we use.

im not talking about your sites directly, just giving my thoughts on the industry all together. when someone signsup for a site that has a trial for only a few bucks, they KNOW its gonna renew to a higher price. if the price is too high they are gonna know they are going to cancel before they even signup...

I know I'm just picking people's brains:winkwink:

Don't know if you want to know my opinion but here it goes.

Big percentage of chargebacks in the industry is IMO caused because some programs don't sell a adultmembership based on content, but based on upsells.

I joined a program not so long time ago, and what I saw was upsells to other paysites....I won't mention the name, but this is one of the problems.

Then the cross sells boxes, When you join for FREE, and then see, fuck I have been charged 120 dollar, you are not happy:-)

Then of course some jerkers who get caught by their wives. They say, NO IT WAS NOT ME, and they do a CB.

Then the webmasters with stolen CC's. Actually I don't get it why there is not a system, then when you buy something online(so no signature) you have to enter some kind of TOKEN or pincode...

Any idea if that will be maybe installed on VISA/MC accounts?

Andre

'webmaster & customer fraud'. What a crock of shit.

I'm sure there is a percentage in there, but no where near as high as some here are making out.

Why ?

Well, why are some sites able to maintain chargeback ratios in the 0.0x if theres all these criminal customers & webmasters out there ?

Also, basing your response to this on what customers tell you, even if you trap them in a lie is a bit daft. People lie. They know 'oh, your members section was shite' will not get anywhere and think 'oh, my credit card was stolen' is more likely to get them a refund. Which is bloody true and the whole point.

It's not a coincidence that Epoch is making these changes you know!


The blinkers on some people are amazing.

this is your basic cross sell

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

I guess people can't read and its a trial so they get an email sent to them that they can cancel from disclosing the price.
Or is it to hard to cancel on a trial?

Personally I don't think surfers are that dumb.
before cross sells the retention and chargebacks were about the same.

I think we need to censor the free stuff so people have to pay for it. Just my 2 cents

I wish people could give solutions to change things. you guys think its just cross sells and high subscriptions.

I think its something bigger like Smart surfers and a shit load of free porn out there causing it.
:2 cents:

No. That's not your typical cross sell.

<font size="1" color="#999999">*prechecked* Check here ut to recieve a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month. </font>

That is your typical cross sell. Small, in a fucked up font color so people don't see it.

Cross sells in and of themselves are not bad. They're the same as dialers and popups. If used properly they can increase revenues and not cause problems. But like dialers and popups, they were abused to the point of being problematic for everyone.

I'm just going by our info with our sites and program.

do you have any paysites? do the sites your talking about with 0 chargebacks have a program attached to them?

trust me we get alot of fraudulant webmasters who hit bot us then run cards thru. as do most others I'm sure.

we are at .66 Percent past 3 months with free trials, porn4abuck and paid trials. but most of our sales come thru Porn4aBuck so the free trials going away don't affect us much.

I think if we tighten up the free stuff out there people will be forced to pay for it. and if program shut out there fraudulant webmasters there percentage would drop.

you might be right cross sells might have an affect but I personally don't think lowering the price of a membership does. from our experience.

I guess it depends on everyone's members section what they feel is right to charge for it.

now that can be a problem if abused and made so it can't be read.

but I don't think this is the major problem for chargebacks.
just like visa and mastercard going to the root of what they need to do to shake us .

We need to do the same with the surfers and give them less free stuff and censor everything. Like I said this is just my opinion.
it's supply and demand

You have 2 of them

Special Offer to New Members!!!
Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to School Girls Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to Teen Cumers No Charge Four Day Trial Membership. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.


Not too mention the base subscription?

Your trial membership for somesite - Three Day Trial Membership will begin as soon as your transaction is complete.
Your price is $4.95 for 3 days.
Thereafter you will be charged $37.12 for every 1 month(s) until cancelled.



Lets assume the surfer is an idiot, like most of them are, and does not understand any of this and doesnt cancel the trials.. You will be in heavy chargeback zone.


4.95 (initial)
37.12 recurred from inital trial
39.12 (cross sale 1 after 4 days)
39.12 (cross sale 2 after 4 days)

$120.31 charged to the average idiots credit card. It is this reason I vote that the adult industry brought this upon themselves, too much greed.

You have mentioned "free stuff" several times. What does the amount of free porn that is available have to do with CB's?

this is where we don't agree.. I don't think surfers are dumb
if they can't read they wouldn't be able to join.

they can check or uncheck those boxes

how about this can you ask your friends if they would pay for porn.
I want to know there response.

your right cross sells might have something to do with chargebacks but I think its a small %

lets start with censoring the free stuff and programs wouldn't have to use free trials etc.

and maybe if they can't get it free they might pay and retain better then maybe there would be les deceptive marketing.:2 cents:

we need to start at the root of it. it's all about Supply and demand
how can we profit if they can get it all free. all they need is something to spank to.

Just like visa and mastercard is doing with us.

There is little we can do about the guy that has every intention of charging back or the fraudulent card.

All we can do is make sure our CC processors scrub, we don't let any guy run an affiliate program. Unless we do it the way the CC processors do it, hold back 15% for 6 months.

What we can do is make sure the surfer knows it's $1.99 for 24 hours though only 30 minutes actually inside the site. What he sees on the tour he gets inside. I would bet most charge backs are for these two reasons.

The problem is simple, the Internet is changing. 18 months ago I was told the surfer wants garbage, he just wants the highest pile of content for the least money the webmaster can buy it for, that any idiot with a camera can be a content provider.

Well those days are gone, the adult surfer is the biggest moving market in the Net. He'll spend 3 months looking and downloading a site then move on. So if he comes out of a quality site where he's respected and goes into a site which clearly sees him as someone to be conned, what do you think he will do?

Can't risk that with a 1% ceiling.

I think that stopping the flow of free porn is analogous to putting the toothpaste back into the tube...a virtual immpossibilty.

And deceptive marketing is wrong with, or without, the availability of free porn. There are consequences for deceptive marketing and one consequence comes in the form of CB's.

Maybe people who need to stoop to deceptive marketing should either a) build a better quality product or b) go away.

Blaming other people because someone needs to lie to get sales is lame. People need to be responsible for their own actions.

If the problem was all of the choices for the poll, then all sites would show: (% wise)
Similar chargeback ratios -
Similar fraudulent partner webmaster scams
Similar fraudulent customer scams.

No maths involved - The figures would even themselves out in the end.

Problem is - The figures do not even themselves out at all.

Any pornlord can come here and give his reasons why this, why that, what about...

At the end of the day, Visa are not pornlords - They have the most experienced banking brains in the business - They also employ some of the top business brains too -

When they say there is a problem in certain areas of our business - I assume they have done an in depth study over several months. Checking and cross checking several stats etc.
Who the fuck here has the business accumen to tell them they have it wrong?
They obviously see some areas which causes some programmes to have much higher chargebacks than others.

many people keep saying it's cross sales that are the problem. i'd rather hear from someone from a processor about this. considering that epoch is cutting out free trials but not cross sales, and that jettis and ccbill offer cross sales, that leads me to think it's "free" that is the problem - not cross sales.

roger v, do you have people with your sites offered as cross sales on their join forms? if so, are you seeing any extra problems with those cross sales becoming chargebacks?

no we don't see a higher % like I said the % is the same even when we didn't do cross sales.

You guys think all that free porn out there is not the problem?

what if gas was free would you pay for it. even if they raise prices you still pay for it why? cause it makes it easier for you to get around, you don't really need it there is the bus system etc. but it makes it more convenient.

If they couldn't get the porn free they would pay for it. unless they wanted to drive to the neariest video store.

free porn was made to tease them to upsell to a paysite or something right?
all I'm saying is if we censor it they will pay for it. cause there would be nowhere else to get it.

Removing free trials and cross sales will not stop chargebacks
:2 cents:

censoring the free porn would make them have to pay to see something. then its up to the Paysites to be good enough to retain them. and with less free porn = Higher payouts cause the retention might go up.

or maybe i just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.
I remember the good old days when joins where rolling in but then there wasn't as much free stuff either don't get me wrong there was some.
But now we make it super simple for them to spank it without having to pay a dime.

Companies like yours who think that everyone else is to blame. Seems to me that the problem is as close as your own backyard!:2 cents:

quik question does anyone think this is a deceptive site?

http://www.buttmagic.com/defaultD.php


If we worked together we could censor the free porn I'm not saying remove it all but maybe not show pink for free.

or since they see free shit before they get to us which is the case most of the time should I show more hardcore on the pages maybe they will join.

or do we censor our home pages after they came from seeing it all
free maybe they will join.

Is anyone getting my point or am I just wasting my time?

No you just don't get it... I'm not worried about the 1%
we are way under.

what I'm saying is converting more traffic and what we can do to increase retention.

What is your average retention? and chargeback %

I have nothing to hide I have always been out spoken. you can see what we do and we are way under 1%

I'm trying to get to the root of it? not trim the tree

how long have you been in the biz and how long have you had pay sites?

I guess I'm wasting my time back to business as normal

If anyone needs Free content for there members section
get strokemag for free at Pornkings. it's basically a full members section for your paysite.
It might help your trial to go active, retain members longer or even lower your chargebacks.

It's free to all our affilates

send me an email to get it today Roger at Pornkings.com

1st of all FREE TRIALS are here to stay!

As long as the card associations dont kill them all together AND there are other options to 3rd party processors there will be free trials and upsells. I think if we just hold tight we will see that a few programs (dont wanna name them, look around) are already using their own merchant accounts and several other programs will be acquiring them.


This may end up hurting the 3rd party industry in the long run. Do your research! DO NOT assume that because a program lowers payouts that this means they are making less profit! It might be quite the contrary. Also you might wanna look up the definition of price fixing as i dont have the time or energy to explain it now.

Porn is an impulse purchase, is it not?

I'm surfing The Hun, I happen upon a gallery with an incredible blonde babe. Long luscious legs, a nice tight and toned ass, with a beautiful pair of 34C tata's. Instantly my pecker pops up and I feel like beating my meat. I need more. I need to see those sweet and tender pussy lips being ripped apart by a rock hard cock.

I see a link on the gallery that says "click for more". I click, and get ready to sign up. I land on the join page and see a bunch of writing about "free trials" and "free porn". I think "sweet!" But, the gallery did such a great job at getting my dick stiff, I need to get inside the site as quickly as possible. I ignore the free stuff for now, thinking maybe I'll check it later after I spank it.

I join. I get charged for the original membership, fine. Then I get charged for "free trials", wtf? Why would I get charged for free trials? Fuck it, I'm not paying for something that's supposed to be free, something I didn't even want. Charge back.

--

A couple of you are saying "oh, it's the surfers responsibility to read everything listed". Sure, fine, maybe it is. But at the same time, you damn well know that one of the main selling points of porn is the impulse buy. You want to get that surfer inside your site as quickly as possible, and so do they. When their cock is in their hand and they're ready for more porn, they aren't thinking clearly, they want pussy now. At this vulnerable state, they click through the site as quickly as possible to get more porn, ignoring all rules.

Now I'll admit, when I want to join some site (porn or non-porn) I fly through the registration process without reading the terms. Always. Don't know if I have ever read any. I consider myself to be a responsible consumer, I know that when I'm buying something that I should be held accountable for whatever those terms say.

So, if I buy something from your site and you pull some shady tricks with me in your terms, you'll still get your money. But you can bet your ass that I will NEVER buy from you or anyone associated with you again. Fuck that. Break my trust barrier? Fuck you. You'll never get it back.

--

Yeh, we have our consumers fucking over paysite companies. And we have our paysite companies fucking over our consumers.

Who really has the right to bitch?

I know whenever i buy something online i read the join page. I dont understand how a member could miss the legal ease. Thats assuming they read it AND understand it. Its possible to NOT read the actual terms and conditions, join a free trial and get away with not paying. If you read the cc page and the subsequent emails. Am i giving surfers too much credit?

I support upsells because i know them to be a very valuable marketing/income generating tool when used appropriately and responsibly. However, i think a upsell to another site should almost always (which is pretty strong for me) be less expensive than the original site. In some cases, depending on the actual upsell product, considerably less than the charge for the initial site.

funny how most of you think its number 2.

That really is the most stupid statement I've seen for a long while.

I AM VERY PROUD TO SAY I HAVENT HAD A SINGLE CHARGEBACK ALL YEAR TO DATE!

its the deceptive marketing way more than crosssales, those should have been 2 seperate options.

I wonder how many chargebacks a company like freecreditreport.com gets? They advertise heavily on TV/radio that you get your credit report free, no mention of a fee at the end of the trial. And their fee is something like $80.

true but by the time I hit make a poll I couldn't go back and add more. lol

I think its all of the above there are many reasons some more for others.


I'm going to give you guys an example of what is being done out there and its very hard to catch the fraudulant webmasters unless you watch your stats closely.
I don't want to reveal how we catch them here but programs need to have a meeting and work together to put a stop to it.
maybe make a board where we can all post the cheaters and then each sponsor can check and monitor that acount if they are in there system.

from what I here thru the grape vine is these guys put up fake pay sites. the surfer goes and tries to join, they put all ther info in and when its done they are not excepted because there card was bad etc.

then they have all the info with the CC and then they run it thru everyones system. so the surfer gets the bill and charges back.

these guys can run one card thru 10 programs and make like $300 of each one. we credit them and payout and don't realize it till the next month when all there cards start chargeing back:2 cents:

by the time you catch them they have a new front and go thru another 10 programs. etc.
just imagine how many programs are out there and how many surfers they can scam. we need to put an end to it and work together.

and normally they don't just have one acount with you they have multiple acounts and only get like 1-4 sales thru each one daily.
so its hard to catch they don't hit you with all at once under one acount. etc

Ack. That's just... evil.

kinda hard to catch them before they hit your system up. because we would have to join sites to see which ones are fake fronts.

the best thing for us to do is stick together and communicate more to put a stop to it. every program has there own way of flaging fraudulant acounts. now we need to help each other.

some programs might not have the advanced stats to do this but at least we can do the work for some and help eachother. using a board or something for programs.
and there are many types of programs out there not just PPS
if there is a program there is webmasters who have figured out a way to scam it. like anything else

Maybe you guys need to remember back to the days when you were a surfer. Stop "understanding how things work" as a webmaster when you get into the member's area, and look at it as a surfer.

1. If it says I get A, B, and C on your tour, then when I login to the member's area, make sure I can see A, B, and C plainly. Don't make me look for it. Don't *even* lie to me and it's not there.

2. Advertise free live chat? Better give me FREE live chat then. It's okay if she's in a bra and panties and won't even show a nipple unless I go private and fork out the $$... she's still LIVE and she's still FREE. Don't make me sign up for something else or pass through HomeSexNetwork's $1 registration thing. I see that $1 registration, my first thought is "Hey, it was supposed to be FREE! WTF? What else am I gonna have to pay for here?"

3. Don't make me see the same exact thing everytime I log in. Give me something fresh and new. A picture of the day. Some little personal-type text. A thumb representing the latest picture gallery or movie that's been added. You say there's updates, *show* me that there are updates.

4. Make it easy to find the cancel button. Maybe my transmission blew this morning and I really need that $30 for the next month, but I'll join up again after this personal shit settles down. So make it easy for me to cancel, and then when shit is okay I'll come back and join. Don't make it easy for me to cancel? Well then, my only option is to call the card company...

5. Don't pre-check anything on my join page. I want to join your site, the one I just saw the tour for, not some other site that I have never seen. Treat me right. I'm your customer. Charge me what you tell me on the tour it's going to cost, and nothing more. If you establish trust with me and don't fuck me over, I'll be more likely to buy from you again.

It's simple stuff, guys.
We can't help the fucktards who purposely join and then chargeback because they've learned that Visa gives them a get-out-of-paying-free card with every purchase they make.
But we *can* keep regular Joe Schmoe surfer from charging back just by remembering what it's like to be him.

Btw Rog I *have* asked non-porn friends (all guys) if they had ever joined a porn site and all 7 of them (they were in a group at the time) said "Why the hell would I do that? I can get all the hardcore shit I want for free!"
And then of course they started sharing URLs like Thumbzilla, Sublime, and TheHun.

LMAO exactly my point. thanks for the post. I ask my friends all the time and get the same response.

thats why I think we need to censor the free shit so they have to pay for it somewhere. it should only be a tease with no pink.
I don't think it would be hard to do if the industry saw it as a way of profiting more.

we need to look at things in the long run not blame one or the other.

we all have a part in this to make our industry more excepted or at least get the gov off our backs.

We censor all our paysites thats why I have to give them a great deal to get them to try it out. thats why we launched Porn4abuck
a full trial for a month.

example of one of our sites http://www.buttmagic.com/defaultD.php trying to do my part and not give the golden goose away

alot of people are choosing
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing

I don't think your looking at the big picture on why sponsors have to word things to gain a member.

we need to get to the root of it all and I think its all the free hardcore out there:2 cents:

why have paysites if surfers can get it free with no age verification

something I posted a long time ago.. I new this was all coming
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...ghlight=rogerv

thats why I had to make a new business model and give the surfers a great deal. I have to move with the industry but I think its time we clean it up in many ways

Interesting to see what people really think versus what is posted.

I never would have guessed that a large number of webmasters would have voted for that explanation.

It definitely speaks volumes.