ADL Colin

Many non-Americans follow US politics as closely as most of my fellow citizens do. You comment on her changes as if you were a citizen yourself. You complain about every policy that goes against your world-view just as the Gauls and the Spaniards complained about the Romans. You should view yourself as honorary citizens. What a great honor ;-O . Hell, how about a little vassalage in the name of Empire?

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Reak

who said i was a American ?

James King

Cool, how about some welfare then?

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Joe Sixpack

So do I get a vote?

Kapitan Ivanov

Yes.

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Joe Sixpack

Yes, wouldn't mind some welfare.

How about some of those food stamps I've been hearing so much about!

ADL Colin

Joe,

No surprise. Less than 15 minutes after being awarded honorary American status, you are already asking for a hand-out. ;-) ;-)

I suggest the welfare to work program. You are probably already familiar with them as you have similar programs where you are from.

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ADL Colin

As long as you pay your taxes.

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Odin88

Can't I cheat those?

ADL Colin

I don't know. Can you?

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CDSmith

But if I win the lottery, sorry guys but I'm all Canadian. Win the lottery in Canada and the government does NOT come and grab 40+% of the take like they do in the good ol' U.S. of A.

ha ha


Vive la Canukistan!

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Joe Sixpack

Your government gives handouts to some of your primary industries in the form of subsidies. A fuckload more than would go to people out of work.

My dealer is on the dole and provides an important public service.

I believe he deserves a government subsidy!

Ironhorse

Haha, that's good. And so true

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Ironhorse

Yeah you get the same as everyone else. A bowl of soup and a swift kick in the butt

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ADL Colin

That's right. This is the land of the rich and powerful. The rules of the game are rigged but written for all to see. It is only the stupid people that get screwed, the same people that can't find Iraq on a map.

I'd much rather live in a nation that rewards wealth and corporations and makes it easy to get there than one that does not.

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ADL Colin

Joe,

The system is so fucking fair that it's insane. I grew up as a poor kid in a family that received free and reduced lunches at school. No one told me I could go to school or how to make my way in the world.

Despite that handicap I worked for and received a world-class education and have made 6 or 7 figures every year since 1996 except one. I didn't need anything from anyone. I still don't.

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Joe Sixpack

You know what Colin, I live in the third largest city in Australia - Brisbane. The population here is around 1.5 million people. It's a large, growing city. I have lived here for 33 years. In that time, I have NEVER seen a person begging for change here. Not once. We have buskers, sure, but Australia is and always has been a nation that has been generous to the disadvantaged. Every once and a while we get conservatives in who cut social programs but by and large Australia has a history of being a compassionate society and generous in terms of welfare.

On the other hand, I have been confronted with more dire poverty in just a few weeks in your country than I have been my whole life here in Australia. From the subway car roamers in New York City to the guy begging for frankfurters in a park near Stuart, Florida where I was having a BBQ with friends. Then in L.A. where I was in transit for one night, there was that old black guy who begged me to buy him a taco at Taco Bell when I was about to order. And then when I was in Vegas I walked one block away from Fremont Street, Downtown where I was staying at the Fitzgerald Casino. Straight away a black guy came up to me and said: Hey man, what you want - weed, crack or pussy?"

These things don't really happen here in Australia. We have homeless people, yes and I've seen the odd person sleeping on park benches. I've have given cigarettes to drunken aborigines who asked me for them as well but that is just about as bad as it gets.

I'm glad you make a lot of money and that you did it all on your own and that you feel like the system encouraged that. That's great. But I prefer the social ethic here in Australia. I pay more taxes, but it's easier on the eye down here and I like it like that. This, to me, is fair.

However, to be fair, I have heard that you get beggars in Sydney now, down Oxford Street way. If so, and I haven't been there for a while myself then it's simply the result of about seven years of conservative rule here in Australia at the federal level. If it's true I hope things change when we kick that bastard Howard out of office. I hope its not a long term trend.

ADL Colin

Joe,

There are tens of thousands of homeless people in Australia. Most estimates put the figure in the hundreds of thousands so what exactly does that mean that you haven't seen even one begging for change?

I'm very surprised that you saw a homeless person in Stuart. I used to visit Stuart quite frequently as I live in South Florida and my ex's parents lived there. It's pretty much a sleepy retirement community. Are your grandparents there or something? I never saw a homeless person there in my dozen or so trips.

Ultimately, you are asking the question of what kind of society you want to live in. I've travelled to close to a dozen countries now (not a lot by some standards). What I've seen is variation but I've never seen anything which I might consider superior (except maybe Monaco ;-) )

I prefer the social ethic here to anything I've ever seen elsewhere (again, except maybe Monaco). Again, the question is what kind of society do I want to live in? I can live anywhere in the world. I choose here.

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Joe Sixpack

Hundreds of thousands? Bullshit, pure and simple. Back it up.

What it means is that the beggars aren't there. Any other Brisbane residents care to back me up here? Have any of you seen people with styrofoam cups begging for change or someone wearing a sign saying "Will work for food" in the city, ever. And no I don't mean someone after change for the parking meter.

And Colin, I've been to the USA. I've spent six months there in total and lived with real families. I've seen it first hand. You come to Australia and see for yourself. Then your opinion will be an educated one.

And for the record, I've travelled to 25 countries and spent one year of the last six years backpacking around the world.

Mike AI

Colin, I bet you were the kid who would kick over ant piles, then pour gas on it, then light it up....

OR did you use a magnifying glass?

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ADL Colin

Magnifying glass.

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ADL Colin

Look around yourself. Take you a few minutes. For example:

"Supported Accommodation Assistance Program (SAAP) figures indicate that in 1996-1997 an estimated 147,000 people used homeless services across Australia, but a further 304,000 requests for support and accommodation were not met. By 1998-99, the number assisted had risen to 163,000, an average of 16,500 a day."

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ADL Colin

What exactly is it that you want me to be educated about?

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ADL Colin

Joe,

You have a very unhealthy obsession regarding America. Why? Why does she bother you so? Why do her policies get under your skin? Why America and not Russia, China, Canada, or Italy?

Why are you concerned with America's debt but not Japan's, France's, Canada's or Germany's though those nations have similar debt relative to the scale of their economies?

You've never seen me obsessing about Australia, Germany, Holland, France, or any other such place. What are you so afraid of?

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Joe Sixpack

Hmmmm... I just did. Very interesting. I'm not sure where your quote is from because you didn't include a link. However I found these:

U.S. Homelessness Australian homelessness

These Australian figures are more recent and our homeless rate is about half of yours. I have never denied that we have homeless people. Of course we do. Show me a country that doesn't. What we don't have is people begging for money on the streets. We don't in Brisbane anyway (not sure about Sydney)and as I said it's the third largest city in the country.

pheal

Rome felt...

ADL Colin

Yup. Consider that the city of Rome was founded about 700 BC and the Empire was founded around the time of the beginning of the first millenium CE. Rome proper lasted for about another five centuries and The Eastern Roman Empire continued on as the Byzantine Empire until the fifteenth century.

What's your point? The US won't last forever? No doubt.

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pheal

Yeah but today conquests don't take years to achieve. We're not centurions anymore. Today's wars make the face of the world change faster than ever.

ADL Colin

I would venture to say the opposite is true or more accurately that things haven't changed all that much.

In a four year period Julius Caesar defeated Gaul and invaded England. How about the conquests of Alexander, Genghis Kahn. or the Muslim Caliphates? The map of Europe had been subject to nearly continual change as the result of wars.

We live in a time when there is a paradigm that the borders of today should be the borders of tomorrow. This idea was championed by Woodrow Wilson.

There have been many wars in the post World War II era that were grinding wars of attrition and not quick conquests. The US in Vietnam and the Soviet Union in Afghanistan are excellent examples.

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XYCash

Lol Colin...u trying to incite a riot?

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ADL Colin

The Sands is giving odds. You want in? ;-)

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XYCash

lol..i wouldn't bet against u

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Snake Doctor

This whole discussion can be summed up in two pictures.


America's Dick



Everyone else's dick


Penis envy pure and simple

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Webby

Leave me out of this honor!

I don't wish to be associated with a rogue bananna republic - but thanks for the offer!

TheJimmy

I gots some free govament cheeze for yazzz

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Sausage

Gotta back Joe up here. I live in Brisbane and sure we have a few homeless, but they never go hungry with all the shelters and organisations helping them. Never seen anyone beg for change or beg for anything.

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Troels

Why is the US obsessing about countries you/they do not agree with? You say you don't like the leadership of another country, so you chose to destroy the leadership?

Imagine If China said the same about USA.

What makes that logic 'better' or 'worse'?

ADL Colin

Some offers you can't refuse.

I don't think you even know what a banana republic is. ;-)

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ADL Colin

China has said the same about the US. Remember VietNam and Korea?

There's nothing wrong with your logic. I agree with you. The US has obsessed about Iraq and Joe has obsessed about the US. Neither obsession is better.

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scooby doo as scooby does

Just so there's no confusion, I love America. I think it is a great country. My wife is American, my daughter has dual nationality. And being British theres a lot of history between the countries.

And the US does have a pretty good welfare system, it's called 'The Army'. I don't have any problem with that. I do wish they would spend more money on education (decision was taken for our daughter to be educated in UK, joint nationality was so she'd have a choice when she grew up). And I wish your healthcare system was just a little more civilised (you have enough money for christs sake), other than that, it's just a great place to live. You can't force people to work or educate themselves, all you do is give them opportunities. The US has loads of opportunities.

I only have a problem with those neo-conservatives you have just elected. I don't have a problem with one or two, or a few of them. Balance is good. But you have elected a whole raft of the bastards. There is much pain in future for your country unless they go quicker rather than sooner. History proves that, their motives are to selfish, too extreme.

And, yes, I know I don't have quite the 'I'm alright Jack' fuck the rest attitude that 'Colin' and same others have, but I'm halfway there

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ADL Colin

No one disagreed with Joe that he doesn't see homeless people in Brisbane. That there are homeless people in Brisbane is beyond dispute though.

Why is there a cultural difference between the homeless of Brisbane and the homeless of Boston? Joe assumes, and his neurosis always kicks in on these matters, that there is something wrong with America and that's why. However, there is food and aid available for anyone that chooses it in the US and more so in any large city.

There are churches in nearly every city, for example, that pass out free lunches and dinners every day to homeless (and economically disadvantaged) people. Some people choose that route and others beg for change. I couldn't tell you why some homeless people refuse free food and others don't. Cultural manifestations the result of either untold causes or random events. There is some level of acceptance for panhandling in the US. An entire culture exists in many cities where people play music
(some quite well) for money on the streets. Why does that exist in one place and not another? Even in the US there is no such uniformity of such cultural practices from city to city or state to state.

Of course, Joe will next be trying to convince people that homelessness originated in the US.

One question, though. Where do they get money for booze?

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ADL Colin

Funny. True.

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pheal

You say it's the opposite? Come on!

One of the latest example that proves you're wrong is that in a few weeks US invaded and defeated Iraq which is a country that lies thousands of km from US. Should I mention the destruction of taliban leadership? It didn't take four years.

Tibet is being canceled from the map by the chinese government. And you say things don't change fast in our times?

In this century the map of Eastern Europe changed many times, a new ideology (communism) was born and died. Let me remind you communism conquered nearly half of the world.

Strange days we live in. (Dis)information rules the public opinion and can convince it to do whatever the governments want to do.

I love the US and its people but I hate its governement and I hate the NRA, I wish I could pee on Charlton Heston grave. Bush and the republicans are not the only dumb monkeys ruling their country. Look in Italy, Rwanda and many countries. It's time for the new generation to kick some butt.

JesseD

BTW - You won't see people asking for hand outs in orlando. Why? Because they outlaw it. I would check your local laws there in Australia (as well as other places) as they may have done the same. Any place where you have a lot of homeless and no begging is usually because of the law and not because "you have a better homeless ethic."

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Ironhorse

Still sore after all these centuries

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JesseD

Colin has a good point that there IS food and shelter for every US homeless person in this country. That is a fact. So, why do they beg? Because it is profitable! Americans make more money on average and are more generous with that money. It is dual-sided. You have people that are willing to beg for it and you have people that are willing to give it out. The homeless that beg get more "benefit" from this than they do from going to the homeless shelters and getting free room and board and food. Simple. (?)

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Ironhorse

Interestingly enough it's also the best example of communist institutions I have ever seen.

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XYCash

When I was in Germany, I saw a lot of people begging for money. I was actually suprised by the number of young kids that were out begging. They would often go from subway to subway car asking people for hand outs.

In the netherlands many of them slept in the railway stations.

In France you get mobbed by homeless people begging for money if you walk anywhere near the eiffle tower.

The worst I've seen it here was in Venice beach california - unreal number of people sleeping in the parks and on the beach who were obviously homeless.

One thing to consider - many of these people dropped out of society because they wanted to - not neccesarily because they were forced to.

I read an article in the NY Times recently about these homeless transients who migrate to warmer climates in the winter and come north in the summer.

They hang out in cities - do odd jobs and also beg for money. They pretty much choose to do what they do - and don't like shelters because of the rules that get forced on them and the fact that they can apparently be more dangerous than the street at times.

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ADL Colin

You can't prove something a comparison right by only showing one side of the comparison.

In ancient times there were both quick wars and long protracted ones just like today. The US made quick work of the regular Iraqi military yet just a few decades ago could not defeat Vietnam in a protracted war lasting more than a decade itself. The USSR has one of the mightiest militaries on the planet and yet could not defeat Afganistan in a bloody nine year long war. Think about that. The USSR could not defeat Afghanistan in 9 years and Caesar defeated the Gauls in a much shorter time frame. Hitler defeated Poland in a month and yet fought against Russia for years. I think the evidence is that wars can be just as long and bloody in modern times and in ancient. There are plenty of examples.

The difference however is the reaction of the international community after a war. There is a paradigm popularized by Woodrow Wilson that today's borders should be tomorrow's borders. We've seen it time and time again. After a war, there is usually an attempt to reestablish the semblance of the pre-war borders. When the US and allies defeated Iraq in 1991, they did not demand territory.

In this sense borders change slower and last longer than in the times of Caesar, Alexander, Darius, or even Genghis Kahn.

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ADL Colin

Sorry, I thought you could reach Google from where you are :

http://www.chpa.org.au/general.html

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