who would get that sale?

baddog,

I apologize if I doubted your contact with CCBill. But I would expect a call from them very shortly. Because your site is not compliant. You were given incorrect information from Andy. When did you speak with him ? I ask that because if it was a few weeks ago then it is possible that he was not aware of the changes. If it was recent, then I am surprised that he would say your site was in compliance.

Either way, sorry for doubting what you said. But I just know for a fact that are not in compliance.

-Hank

btw, I still think you tossed in some spam while you were at it too :)

BigNooseJimmy,
We can only contol what is on your our join page area, but I believe you will see others following suit shortly. We tend to get copied alot :)

Come on now Hank, a little spam is good for the soul no?

The question was about a link from inside the members area, at that point, there is no need to generate a sale, because they are already members.

But if you want to send traffic to http://www.sexkey.com/members/index.cfm?id=YOURID, you would get credit for anyone that joined.

Hank

No problem with the spam. Just when he said that CCBill approved him I knew he was either making it up or had been misinformed.

-Hank

Tootie, now THAT'S 'Space Ranger Thinking'!!! :)

Tootie, your response is the main reason why we'll eventually win out against fraud and criminal shit. It's when the chips are down and how we handle things that defines what we're really made of.

I've seen dozens of examples where webmasters, faced with major problems come up with solutions the feds, the scientists, the cc companies etc. failed to resolved. Many of these webmasters and programmers go unsung even though their solutions and efforts literally change the way of the web.

It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with your solution or not, it's the matter that you were brave enough to step up to the plate when everybody else was sittin' on the sidelines.

Hank, are all your graphic scripts changed over? I saw wording on one earlier today that looked like you may have missed something.

Again, this is exactly what CCBill said to us: "I've looked through your site - you're really setup well. I dont know that you need to change anything at this point. All the major hot buttons for the AVS's - you don't seem to have. Have you modified your business model here recently at all? "

It is not like I really expect any phone calls from them, since we are not one of their affiliates, but they are welcome to call if they wish

As far as I know they are all changed. If you find one that is not, please contact me. I do know that we were in the process of changing a few of them today. Let me know.

-Hank

Hank, you have mail.

In response to Baddog's comment from a CCBill Representative.

Baddog wrote:

"CCBill just went thru our site last week to see if we were in compliance, and they said, "I've looked through your site - you're really setup well. I don't know that you need to change anything at this point. All the major hot
buttons for the AVS's - you don't seem to have. Have you modified your business model here recently at all?"


Sorry, you may have been misinformed regarding Andy Kiefers email.
I would have to review the email to officially come to that conclusion but after
reviewing your site you would not be in compliance with us. In reality,
right now there is no safe ground if you plan on using "AVS", Age Verification",
or Participatingsites" unless you want to be classified as an IPSP. If you will send me
your phone number via email [email protected] I will be happy to call you right now to go over the necessary changes your site will need to make if you are to continue
using us as a secondary. It's unfortunate, but necessary.

I do want to stress that this does not mean that CCBill agrees with the
classification that AVS is an IPSP, however, I do stress that we will adhere
to Visa's requirements.

You also wrote: "Oh, and we don't have a problem with you utilizing the
marketing technique of getting access to thousands of sites. We know that is
a major selling point, and we are not going to take that away from you."

Simple response, yes, you may not have a problem with it, but unfortunately,
I do not think Visa and MC cares what you think should be allowed. That's
the harsh reality, every day a site pushes the envelope is another day closer
to being shut down.

On a personal note, I really don't think the necessary changes constitutes an
initial reaction to run to the hills. Make the changes and see how it plays
out. You may be pleasantly surprised. Lets wait and see.

I have forwarded the entire e-mail to you, which includes the initial contact by CCBill to us. Remember, you contacted us, not visa versa.

As stated above, my phone number is on our site if you feel the need to call, but I will understand if you don't, seeing as how we will not be utilizing your services.

Nothing against CCBill, but it does not fit into our plans.

Not to beat a dead horse, but at what point did I ever say we were using CCBill as a secondary? You know something I don't? Do I need to call a Board of Directors meeting?

Hahaha, they tell you that you aren't in compliance upon review under the rules Visa finally set out, and now you tell them you won't be using them?

I'd start a pool on how long it takes Visa compliance to shut you down but that would be both rude and scary for your affiliates.

Visa is being very specific in what they require, and there aren't going to be any AVS using US processing getting out of it and still generating sales or rebills.

Id just like to thank Hank and Sexkey for taking all the initial abuse..haha
:)


We are actually expecting to have our new terms, wording etc on Monday/Tuesday..

Thanks to Hank for taking off the steam for us.. ;)

Luckily we do a lot of our join codes java controlled by us, but still this is a lot of work for everyone and a lot of our webmasters will ahve to change their own wording on their sites.

Most webmasters submit sites to 10 different avs's at once.

Ours will most likely follow what comes from Oneverify and Freenetpass as that is our processor at the moment.

We have used ccbill in the past and may in the future so we will take into account everyones choice of wording..


Thats why this is a business.. cause you have to work..

Chris

KK, please read my posts again. We do not, nor have we ever utilized CCBill. When SexPicturesPass first came into being the people running it intended to use CCBill, so they set up an account with them. However, they could not get the script to work with CCBill (thank you PerlCoders) so they opted to go another route. This is the only reason CCBill even knew we existed.

When I came on board, I changed things altogether, and again, CCBill was not part of the plan, primary or secondary.

Jeffne's comments have nothing to do with our decision, nor does Andy's prior comments that we are in compliance. We are not using, nor do we have any intention of ever using CCBill. It has nothing to do with any e-mail or post, or potential telephone call.

Jeff,

Send me the email, I will read it.

CCbill used to like me..


Chris

You talking about the email I forwarded to him?

...although thankfully not too much abuse other than some gripes over the timing. It's one of those things that just has to be done and not something that any sane AVS (oops sorry - porn system formerly known as AVS) would do from choice. What a lot of work though for all concerned from the AVS downwards.

Only point I still find confusing is why (initially) are sites on the linklist the only ones that have to comply? Surely the rule changes should mean evrey site should be in compliance and in the same time frame. Removing a site from the 'porn system formerly known as AVS' LL doesn't make the system any more compliant surely? Not really too much of an issue as they obviously will all have to be changed. Just curious why so much emphasis is placed on just the sites listed even though the ones not listed are potentially getting at least as much traffic and sales.

First I would like to thank Chris for your kind comments. All I have to say is that you owe me one :) I am tired of taking the heat for you, damnit. This is the last time..... hehehe

baddog, When is the last time you looked at your join page ? I filled out the signup form, got declined on purpose and this is what it told me.

"Your purchase has been rejected. You may sign up for our service using your credit card by clicking here."

There is a link on the "clicking here" part of that sentence. It goes to a CCBill signup page. If that isn't using a secondary processor then I don't know what is. You might want to call up that board of directors and see if they are keeping you out of the loop on something. Just thought you should know. Also, I didn't see the webmaster referer code in the secondary join link, how does the webmaster get credit for the signup if someone joins from there?

Hank

I am contacting my contact now about that, is a good question, had not tried that. I know we cookie for 10 days, not sure what Flynt is doing, but I will find out, thanks.

However, CCBill does not deal with us, and I highly doubt that CCBill is going to drop them as a client because they are giving away free memberships to our AVS.

Tipsy,

If visa goes to sexkey.com looking for compliance, they will surely start with the participating sites link page.. and I hope Visa goes to sexkey instead of us..haha

Seriously though, Visa will do its own investigations, either via complaint from a customer and go to a specific website, or to look at the Porn System that is protecting the site and look at participating sites.

You sound like a good webmaster, so think about this.. if sexkey pulls a bunch of out of compliance sites from the link list, think of all that good additional traffic that will go to sites in compliance...

:)

This is actually going to be a boom for compliant webmasters..

Id just start submitting more sites to sexkey and get some of that extra traffic..

Believe me, nobody wants this, sexkey is at much more risk than you as you get the intial pay for signups up front, for sexkey this is a risk of their entire recurring database..

and once again this is a business..

Chris

I have a question...if anyone can answer it. I am using several AVS's and I have only been notified by one (FreeAgeCard) of the necessity to make changes. Why is that?

King,

Different processors, different time lines..

From what I am told..its all coming..


Chris

Well...that sounds logical.

I started writing a response about 15 minutes ago but I was interrupted by a neighbor. After I returned it looks like my initial response has been touched on by Hank.
"Your purchase has been rejected. You may sign up for our service using your credit card by clicking here."

Thats where the secondary processing statement derived.

Anyways Baddog, thanks or sending me the email and no I have not sent the email to anyone. The only thing I would send Chris is the $100.00 I owe him from a bet we made at the Phoenix Forum.

Checks in the mail Chris :) and yes, CCBill still loves ya. I will flip 20's with you all day long.. Maybe we should take Kimmy's money.

I have to admit, I have been trying to get this failure that brings in CCBill, and neither I nor my partner has been able to do it.

What option are you using that brings that up?

Also, a point of clarification, Flynt is your affiliate, we are not. Right?

Let me see, I am confused here, and it's this statement that is causing the confusion.

Is your AVS processing on someone else's IPSP account? If so, then both you and the company letting you process on their account are out of compliance as my understanding of IPSP registrations goes. The simple solution to this is for the person you are piggybacking on to stop sending joins this way.

Your other statements regarding your intentions (the spam ones) are pretty well ridiculous too, since when Visa lays down the rules, no one is exempt from them...

I think you probably need to check with your boss before you make statements like you have, since it would seem that from what you've said, there are some compliance issues above and beyond the AVS ones. If this is not the case, then I don't think your boss would want you giving that impression.

Personally I've known Hank for a long time, and he cares about his affiliates -- enough to be the first and bear the brunt of the frustration from AVS webmasters, as sexyavs mentioned.


Hahaha, Jeff, when you think you can take my money, let me know ;-}}}

And if you're looking for someone to play same or different with, Ken Lawson would be your guy, I think Shok's nailed him for quite a bit over the last couple years ;)

Kimmy

I wanted to flip for 100's with Ken and he didnt have any left but shok's pockets were full..

Jeff and Shok had already taken his money!

Jeff..dont you dare send a check..im sure we will meet up soon enough..both drunk and willing to bet on anything..hahah

Actually I will be in Vegas next weekend if you are around :)


Chris

have to make this short, writing between rounds. My boss? Who the heck is that? My affiliates?

KK, I don't know what you are trying to read into things, but there are no compliance issues.

There could be a white heavyweight champ soon.

Imagine if all the AVS webmasters took their content dumped it into one members area for their own pay site and used all their tour pages to promote this pay site. :winkwink: It's an idea.

Of course this would never happen because of the rebills :1orglaugh

Here's another can of worms.

What if webmasters just paid $750 to register all of their urls and we left the AVS model the same?

You got me thinking! Hmmm. Wife's B-day weekend or BlackJack with you.... Which hotel should I make my reservation at? :)

My wife would kill me and I am sure Kimmy would tell her how?

I will catch you next time, and yes, I am practicing the two finger flip...it's all in the wrist....

Because the AVS webmasters do not WANT to pay the $750 fee. If they did, they'd be running paysites right now, not worrying about doing search/replace on all of their pages in 24-48 hours.

For the record, it blows my mind that FreeAgePass sent out this letter on Saturday and said they're going to start deactivating on Sunday. That is INSANE.

Oh, and for the fellow at the beginning of the thread who was pissed because this was done on a weekend and the AVS programs had evidently never heard of "business hours"... you just don't get this business, do you? This isn't a bank, baby - we don't play 9-5 and then shut down.
Let me amend that - the webmasters who are serious about their business and looking at this AS their own business and who are out to make money don't play 9-5. If you want to, have fun with your porn hobby. It isn't going to last long.

I haven't read the whole thread yet. But I read this and it's pretty fucking obvious you don't know sweet fuck all about what you're talking about.

If you're processing with an IPSP, Visa/MC does not take a percentage of earnings. Your processor does. They're not a charity. If you have your own merchant account, you pay a miniscule transaction fee to accept Visa/MC. In the long run, it's worth it because it brings you business. If you don't agree with the transaction fee, you don't have to accept credit cards.

Concerning the registration fee and all the papers, this isn't a new rule. It's been around for a while and everyone else has to conform to it. Visa just started to enforce the rules for adult sites processing with an IPSP.

As for chargeback investigations. Currently, there is only one valid way to prove that the guy initiating the chargeback is the guy who signed up for your site. <b>You have to prove that the IP address used to sign up for your site was assigned to the credit card holder on that day, at that time.</b> To prove that, you have to subpoena his ISP and get them to release access logs for that day, for that customer.

If you can somehow find out how to get a subpoena or get access to those logs legally, then please, by all means, share it with us!

Could someone in the know answer me some questions.

What is the reasoning behind some of these changes, in particular, the wording. I understand the point about the term "AVS" but what is so wrong about using "Access to multiple sites" as a selling point?

It seems to make no sense to me.

Also, does this only effect AVS's processing with third party billers (assuming there are any that use their own merchant account), or does it effect the AVS model no matter what?

It all depends on how you define a site. I think if Visa says sites costs $750 each then to be in compliance you can't use that wording for AVS sites. You could say "access to multiple domains" but surfers are idiots and probably wouldn't even know what that meant!

I think the best solution is to just explain how much content you have. (ie. over 2 million pics, movies, etc) I use it on my Adult Bouncer and Deluxe Pass sites and it works fine. Those former AVS's seem to be already in compliance with this visa bullshit. I'm still waiting for the last minute to change my sexkey sites! Not going to be fun..

Carrie - Ludedude has been around for years - it's not a hobby to him anymore than it is a hobby to you or I.

How about if a company wanted to have a totally free for life AVS and never charged anybody for anything but made all their money on upsells inside the AVS? How could that ever be considered IPSP. Visa might not like being used to verify age but if there is no cost at all can they do anything about it?

How about if an AVS was completely free for life itself but gave the surfer a free or paid trial to a paysite that could rebill and considered webmasters to be affiliates for the paysite. Giving them the privilege of promoting that paysite if they choose their AVS to protect their site completely for free. How can Visa claim they're preventing fraud when the surfer is not being charged for access to any possibly fraudulent website. I mean even if the participating site in question has no content at all and no value who cares? It's free. The paysite which has already been registered and for which the $750 fee has already been payed is all that would cost the surfer anything.

Does that make sense?