But this isn't one of the most profitable industries Cassie -- the % of total volume generated by adult is maybe 2% of the cc total overall... then chargebacks are so much higher for adult that it isn't all that profitable either...

Personally I think that people should be glad they aren't having to make more changes or more drastic ones...

101

As far as chargebacks, I am of the opinion that subscribers to adult sites should be warned at the time of signup that if they chargeback that their CC number will be entered into a permanent database of chargeback customers as a fraudulently used card and that it can never be used again at another adult site.

The subscribers should be told that if they have a problem, they can contact the webmaster for a prompt refund, but that chargebacks will not be tolerated, simply because the only excuse for chargebacks when the company is willing to offer refunds if for true fraud. If there is a chargeback on a card, it means the number has been stolen and for the CUSTOMER'S protection, it will be put on the global CC fraud list used by "adult sites everywhere" or something to that nature.

Some people have multiple CCs, but eventually they would all be used up and I'd rather block someone out than risk more chargebacks from leeches that just trial and cancel over an over to different sites.

All sites could get access to the same master database if they wanted to. It would piss VISA and MC off, I imagine, for us to have a global ban list, but WTF else can we do when they sit there and chargeback fees with no questions asked?

Just some ideas. I've been thinking about this for a while and it's all I could come up with. There really is no reason for these morons to charge back when all they have to do is ask for a refund. :feels-hot

So if it's no longer called "AVS" what is it called now?

Avscraig, I have a question for you.

Are we allowed to have other avs scripts, such as sexyavs, nakedpass, etc that may have incorrect references on the same warning page as a sexkey script?

Wow, I feel bad for the AVS's and myself since all my sites are AVS. BUT....I just got another email from freeagecard and you might find this line a bit funny...

"From our experiences most of the successful webmasters do very well by selling their actual site, without referencing any AVS. Try to concentrate on your own site and the content within your site, as well as the content within FreeAgeCard.
"

OK....Lets get real here....The ONLY reason I have continued to use a AVS is so I can pitch "access to 1000's of sites", AND I don't need to have a impressive content area myself...

Well, now the AVS tells me to concentrate on my own site!?!
OK, fine, I think I will do just that...I'll buy some more content, a few live feeds, stories, chat rooms, etc., and use ibill or ccbill to process the memberships....What do I need a AVS for anymore?
Opps, I forgot, I can't call them AVS anymore either:(

Get my drift....

Seems to be the end of the AVS business model all together...

I have to agree with you there, m00d. How the heck can I concentrate on selling the content in MY site if all I have is 30 pictures all from the same series? There is only so much I can do with 30 softcore pictures of the same model in the same outfit. What do they want now, one preview pic per site? Just a title graphic and one little thumbnail with some text saying "join now for my huge gallery featuring 30 semi-nude photos!" Yeah, I'd pay to see that. *snicker*

Seriously, PLEASE! Will someone from one of the AVSs please give us some REAL suggestions on selling the sites without being able to tell them about accessing the other sites. And can we get an explanation as to what exactly is wrong about telling them the truth? That they also get access to other sites... that's true, right?

Interesting to see if it is. To get around the rules it seems SK have esentially turned themselves into the site and every 'site' pushing them into content. In other words it's more or less a 'build your own tour' oh, and while you're at it supply us with some more content.

Certainly it's going to be very interesting to see what happens and how others will change if made to.

Isn't the German porn model built very heavily on AVS systems to stay legal? If the pressure is also put on AVS's outside of the US by VISA in Europe etc that could be very interesting to watch.

As with everything in this business times change and you just have to adapt or go back to the day job. That doesn't make it any less a pain in the ass at the time though.

Okay, one more time, SexPicturesPass is not going to tell you that you can not promote the idea of access to 1,000's of other sites.

As far as promotion goes, I think the smart money goes with a 2 part promotion.

#1. Promote your sites. If you only have one, 30 pic site you are probably not really going to be very successful in AVS anyway. So build a hub, promoting all of your 30 pic sites.

#2. Promote the idea that along with access to all of your sites, they get access to 1,000's of others. If some AVS's feel the need to take this away from you, then perhaps it is time to move to a different AVS.

baddog,

I find it rather odd that CCBill would go through your site for compliance when "you don't even process with them", you use Jettis. Actually that isn't even you either, cause you piggyback off of Flynt Digital for your processing.

Can you tell me who you talked to at CCBill that gave you this clean bill of health ? Because CCBill called me today asking who you were after reading this thread. I had personally never heard of your site, so I couldn't help them out. But I find it pretty unlikely that anyone from CCBill went through your site.

I could be wrong, but if you can't provide any facts to the rest of us, then your posts are what I thought they were the first time I read them, SPAM.

-Hank

Oh man....this ought to be good.

No offense, I am signed up with your AVS and I'm sure it will be a good one once I start using it. I haven't made any sites in a while (been working on other stuff) and I'm ready to start again soon. But I don't want to use just one or two AVS systems, I want to use as many as I can find.

I want traffic to my members area from as many AVS systems as possible for upsells (yes, I'll admit I like upsells), but I'd also like to have a variety of different pay models to work with for selling memberships to the AVSs. Some AVSs send me lots of upsells, but I don't have luck selling their passes. Some don't send much for upsells but end up being very easy to sell memberships to. For example, Cyberage and One Verify have both been VERY good for getting me sales to the AVS itself. However Free Net Pass never seemed to get me any sales no matter how much traffic I sent my sites and from where, but they did send a few upsells.

I might create twenty different 30 pic sites in the BBW niche, for example, and submit them all to 15 different AVS systems (using seperate directories/front ends). Then I'll take all those different sites and submit them to the search engines. I always change my wording around quite a bit so that each entrance is unique and each one can potentially get SE traffic as a unique site. This works pretty well because I often get several sales to the AVSs on different entries to the same site.

What I'm saying is... why would a surfer who finds my site through the SEs want to sign up, when all he sees that he gets access to is one picture set? I can't use 6 different pic sets to design the tour if I'm only going to use one set inside. And I know how much surfers like series, so I'd really like to offer series instead of 5 pics each of 6 different models.

Maybe your AVS isn't ever going to demand that we not tell the surfer that he will get access to the other site, but then again maybe someday it will be required for you to do so. Who knows? But one cannot make as much money from just one AVS system as he can from many, even if yours happens to be the only one that allows this in the coming months. What I really need to know is how to change my existing site for the AVSs that WILL be requiring it so that I can still get sales without directly mentioning the access to other sites.

And I still don't understand why we can't tell the surfer the truth. If he gets access to the other sites, why not tell him? Isn't it wrong not to tell them EXACTLY what they'll be getting?

This is so confusing. :(

I think the best way to go about doing it would be to sell access to the millions of pictures, videos, stories, etc.. that are on all of the other sites without specifically mentioning that the content they get access to is on thousands of seperate sites, but act as if you were selling the AVS system as a paysite.

Hope that's clear?

For them to get around being considered an IPSP THEY have to be the actual site which means you are content for their site. Hence you are no longer a site as such yourself, but rather some pages of content for the main site which is Sexkey. At least that's what I'm reading into this. That then means you can't mention other 'sites' because technically they don't exist, they are just content pages for the site which is Sexkey. Hope that all makes sense and I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong on this.

As far as I'm aware nobody is yet sure whether VISA/whoever will even let them get away with doing it this way. Just have to wait and see on that one.

surely you don't think I would make shit up. We got the email from Andy Kiefer, Account Executive

oh, and they are welcome to call me direct. My number is in the webmaster's area of our site

That's a good idea if that is allowed. But if you did that you'd have to make absolutely certain to add a link to the participating sites list (the one we're not allowed to mention LOL) inside the members area in case the surfer doesn't read too well when he signs up and doesn't realize he gets the access to the other sites.

Nate,

That is a perfect way to promote it. Tell the surfer about the amount of content they will see, not the amount of sites. Same effect, just different way to say it.

Also, to put some of you at ease. Our signups and signup ratios have remained strong even after the wording change. When it comes down to it, the surfer is looking for the content not a 3 letter abbreviation. So stress what they will see when they become a member.

Great point Nate

-Hank

A link to http://www.sexkey.com/members with a title of SexKey Members Area would work fine in that case, tootie

-Hank

And I wouldn't worry too much about a link like that being a traffic leak.

Once the surfer is inside the protected area of your site they are pretty easy to control, paysites have been doing it forever... placing their flat-rate feeds and static content near the top and burying their licensed feeds with the most expensive bandwidth and fees at the bottom.

who would get that sale?

baddog,

I apologize if I doubted your contact with CCBill. But I would expect a call from them very shortly. Because your site is not compliant. You were given incorrect information from Andy. When did you speak with him ? I ask that because if it was a few weeks ago then it is possible that he was not aware of the changes. If it was recent, then I am surprised that he would say your site was in compliance.

Either way, sorry for doubting what you said. But I just know for a fact that are not in compliance.

-Hank

btw, I still think you tossed in some spam while you were at it too :)

BigNooseJimmy,
We can only contol what is on your our join page area, but I believe you will see others following suit shortly. We tend to get copied alot :)

Come on now Hank, a little spam is good for the soul no?

The question was about a link from inside the members area, at that point, there is no need to generate a sale, because they are already members.

But if you want to send traffic to http://www.sexkey.com/members/index.cfm?id=YOURID, you would get credit for anyone that joined.

Hank

No problem with the spam. Just when he said that CCBill approved him I knew he was either making it up or had been misinformed.

-Hank

Tootie, now THAT'S 'Space Ranger Thinking'!!! :)

Tootie, your response is the main reason why we'll eventually win out against fraud and criminal shit. It's when the chips are down and how we handle things that defines what we're really made of.

I've seen dozens of examples where webmasters, faced with major problems come up with solutions the feds, the scientists, the cc companies etc. failed to resolved. Many of these webmasters and programmers go unsung even though their solutions and efforts literally change the way of the web.

It doesn't matter if everyone agrees with your solution or not, it's the matter that you were brave enough to step up to the plate when everybody else was sittin' on the sidelines.

Hank, are all your graphic scripts changed over? I saw wording on one earlier today that looked like you may have missed something.

Again, this is exactly what CCBill said to us: "I've looked through your site - you're really setup well. I dont know that you need to change anything at this point. All the major hot buttons for the AVS's - you don't seem to have. Have you modified your business model here recently at all? "

It is not like I really expect any phone calls from them, since we are not one of their affiliates, but they are welcome to call if they wish

As far as I know they are all changed. If you find one that is not, please contact me. I do know that we were in the process of changing a few of them today. Let me know.

-Hank

Hank, you have mail.

In response to Baddog's comment from a CCBill Representative.

Baddog wrote:

"CCBill just went thru our site last week to see if we were in compliance, and they said, "I've looked through your site - you're really setup well. I don't know that you need to change anything at this point. All the major hot
buttons for the AVS's - you don't seem to have. Have you modified your business model here recently at all?"


Sorry, you may have been misinformed regarding Andy Kiefers email.
I would have to review the email to officially come to that conclusion but after
reviewing your site you would not be in compliance with us. In reality,
right now there is no safe ground if you plan on using "AVS", Age Verification",
or Participatingsites" unless you want to be classified as an IPSP. If you will send me
your phone number via email [email protected] I will be happy to call you right now to go over the necessary changes your site will need to make if you are to continue
using us as a secondary. It's unfortunate, but necessary.

I do want to stress that this does not mean that CCBill agrees with the
classification that AVS is an IPSP, however, I do stress that we will adhere
to Visa's requirements.

You also wrote: "Oh, and we don't have a problem with you utilizing the
marketing technique of getting access to thousands of sites. We know that is
a major selling point, and we are not going to take that away from you."

Simple response, yes, you may not have a problem with it, but unfortunately,
I do not think Visa and MC cares what you think should be allowed. That's
the harsh reality, every day a site pushes the envelope is another day closer
to being shut down.

On a personal note, I really don't think the necessary changes constitutes an
initial reaction to run to the hills. Make the changes and see how it plays
out. You may be pleasantly surprised. Lets wait and see.

I have forwarded the entire e-mail to you, which includes the initial contact by CCBill to us. Remember, you contacted us, not visa versa.

As stated above, my phone number is on our site if you feel the need to call, but I will understand if you don't, seeing as how we will not be utilizing your services.

Nothing against CCBill, but it does not fit into our plans.

Not to beat a dead horse, but at what point did I ever say we were using CCBill as a secondary? You know something I don't? Do I need to call a Board of Directors meeting?

Hahaha, they tell you that you aren't in compliance upon review under the rules Visa finally set out, and now you tell them you won't be using them?

I'd start a pool on how long it takes Visa compliance to shut you down but that would be both rude and scary for your affiliates.

Visa is being very specific in what they require, and there aren't going to be any AVS using US processing getting out of it and still generating sales or rebills.

Id just like to thank Hank and Sexkey for taking all the initial abuse..haha
:)


We are actually expecting to have our new terms, wording etc on Monday/Tuesday..

Thanks to Hank for taking off the steam for us.. ;)

Luckily we do a lot of our join codes java controlled by us, but still this is a lot of work for everyone and a lot of our webmasters will ahve to change their own wording on their sites.

Most webmasters submit sites to 10 different avs's at once.

Ours will most likely follow what comes from Oneverify and Freenetpass as that is our processor at the moment.

We have used ccbill in the past and may in the future so we will take into account everyones choice of wording..


Thats why this is a business.. cause you have to work..

Chris

KK, please read my posts again. We do not, nor have we ever utilized CCBill. When SexPicturesPass first came into being the people running it intended to use CCBill, so they set up an account with them. However, they could not get the script to work with CCBill (thank you PerlCoders) so they opted to go another route. This is the only reason CCBill even knew we existed.

When I came on board, I changed things altogether, and again, CCBill was not part of the plan, primary or secondary.

Jeffne's comments have nothing to do with our decision, nor does Andy's prior comments that we are in compliance. We are not using, nor do we have any intention of ever using CCBill. It has nothing to do with any e-mail or post, or potential telephone call.

Jeff,

Send me the email, I will read it.

CCbill used to like me..


Chris

You talking about the email I forwarded to him?

...although thankfully not too much abuse other than some gripes over the timing. It's one of those things that just has to be done and not something that any sane AVS (oops sorry - porn system formerly known as AVS) would do from choice. What a lot of work though for all concerned from the AVS downwards.

Only point I still find confusing is why (initially) are sites on the linklist the only ones that have to comply? Surely the rule changes should mean evrey site should be in compliance and in the same time frame. Removing a site from the 'porn system formerly known as AVS' LL doesn't make the system any more compliant surely? Not really too much of an issue as they obviously will all have to be changed. Just curious why so much emphasis is placed on just the sites listed even though the ones not listed are potentially getting at least as much traffic and sales.

First I would like to thank Chris for your kind comments. All I have to say is that you owe me one :) I am tired of taking the heat for you, damnit. This is the last time..... hehehe

baddog, When is the last time you looked at your join page ? I filled out the signup form, got declined on purpose and this is what it told me.

"Your purchase has been rejected. You may sign up for our service using your credit card by clicking here."

There is a link on the "clicking here" part of that sentence. It goes to a CCBill signup page. If that isn't using a secondary processor then I don't know what is. You might want to call up that board of directors and see if they are keeping you out of the loop on something. Just thought you should know. Also, I didn't see the webmaster referer code in the secondary join link, how does the webmaster get credit for the signup if someone joins from there?

Hank

I am contacting my contact now about that, is a good question, had not tried that. I know we cookie for 10 days, not sure what Flynt is doing, but I will find out, thanks.

However, CCBill does not deal with us, and I highly doubt that CCBill is going to drop them as a client because they are giving away free memberships to our AVS.

Tipsy,

If visa goes to sexkey.com looking for compliance, they will surely start with the participating sites link page.. and I hope Visa goes to sexkey instead of us..haha

Seriously though, Visa will do its own investigations, either via complaint from a customer and go to a specific website, or to look at the Porn System that is protecting the site and look at participating sites.

You sound like a good webmaster, so think about this.. if sexkey pulls a bunch of out of compliance sites from the link list, think of all that good additional traffic that will go to sites in compliance...

:)

This is actually going to be a boom for compliant webmasters..

Id just start submitting more sites to sexkey and get some of that extra traffic..

Believe me, nobody wants this, sexkey is at much more risk than you as you get the intial pay for signups up front, for sexkey this is a risk of their entire recurring database..

and once again this is a business..

Chris

I have a question...if anyone can answer it. I am using several AVS's and I have only been notified by one (FreeAgeCard) of the necessity to make changes. Why is that?

King,

Different processors, different time lines..

From what I am told..its all coming..


Chris

Well...that sounds logical.

I started writing a response about 15 minutes ago but I was interrupted by a neighbor. After I returned it looks like my initial response has been touched on by Hank.
"Your purchase has been rejected. You may sign up for our service using your credit card by clicking here."

Thats where the secondary processing statement derived.

Anyways Baddog, thanks or sending me the email and no I have not sent the email to anyone. The only thing I would send Chris is the $100.00 I owe him from a bet we made at the Phoenix Forum.

Checks in the mail Chris :) and yes, CCBill still loves ya. I will flip 20's with you all day long.. Maybe we should take Kimmy's money.

I have to admit, I have been trying to get this failure that brings in CCBill, and neither I nor my partner has been able to do it.

What option are you using that brings that up?

Also, a point of clarification, Flynt is your affiliate, we are not. Right?

Let me see, I am confused here, and it's this statement that is causing the confusion.

Is your AVS processing on someone else's IPSP account? If so, then both you and the company letting you process on their account are out of compliance as my understanding of IPSP registrations goes. The simple solution to this is for the person you are piggybacking on to stop sending joins this way.

Your other statements regarding your intentions (the spam ones) are pretty well ridiculous too, since when Visa lays down the rules, no one is exempt from them...

I think you probably need to check with your boss before you make statements like you have, since it would seem that from what you've said, there are some compliance issues above and beyond the AVS ones. If this is not the case, then I don't think your boss would want you giving that impression.

Personally I've known Hank for a long time, and he cares about his affiliates -- enough to be the first and bear the brunt of the frustration from AVS webmasters, as sexyavs mentioned.


Hahaha, Jeff, when you think you can take my money, let me know ;-}}}

And if you're looking for someone to play same or different with, Ken Lawson would be your guy, I think Shok's nailed him for quite a bit over the last couple years ;)

Kimmy

I wanted to flip for 100's with Ken and he didnt have any left but shok's pockets were full..

Jeff and Shok had already taken his money!

Jeff..dont you dare send a check..im sure we will meet up soon enough..both drunk and willing to bet on anything..hahah

Actually I will be in Vegas next weekend if you are around :)


Chris