Sue the shavers? - GoFuckYourself.com

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-18-2003, 11:25 PM

I know there has been alot of talk about sponsors shaving on this board.
If that is the case couldn't that be grounds for a huge lawsuit?
If someone were to break a shaver and won the lawsuit wouldn't all those who were promoting theier program be entitled to settlement?
What are your thoughts?

stocktrader23 · 06-18-2003, 11:26 PM

Yes and I would happily sue anyone I KNEW shaved me and not say "Oh but they still convert better".

jact · 06-18-2003, 11:27 PM

How do you prove an amount to sue for? How do you prove they're shaving? How do you account for sponsors changing their payouts the day before court ("Terms and conditions may change at any time without notice").....

So who's shaving now?

cash69 · 06-18-2003, 11:28 PM

have your lawyer demand to login directly to the processor thru the reseller account.. that's proof right there

twistyneck · 06-18-2003, 11:28 PM

Why would anyone use a sponsor? They all shave in one way or another. Trust nobody.

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-18-2003, 11:31 PM

I myself am not the brightest, but I have to believe that if this practice is being done there must be someone out there doing some investigating, documenting, etc.
It would be newsworthy to say the least.

stevecore · 06-18-2003, 11:32 PM

yeah.... prove someone's shaving... the only way you're gonna prove that is to have the co. in question actually testify in court that they shave., and that aint gonna happen. get over it, deal with it... companies shave to stay in business. if they go out of business, who the fuck are you gonna promote?

twistyneck · 06-18-2003, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore
yeah.... prove someone's shaving... the only way you're gonna prove that is to have the co. in question actually testify in court that they shave., and that aint gonna happen. get over it, deal with it... companies shave to stay in business. if they go out of business, who the fuck are you gonna promote?

You promote your own shit, not some second rate site filled with skanks, plug-ins, and pixmasters content. Fuck that.

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-18-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore
yeah.... prove someone's shaving... the only way you're gonna prove that is to have the co. in question actually testify in court that they shave., and that aint gonna happen. get over it, deal with it... companies shave to stay in business. if they go out of business, who the fuck are you gonna promote?

If what you are saying is true. Why resort to deception?
Couldn't they structure things to be truthful?

stevecore · 06-18-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twistyneck

You promote your own shit, not some second rate site filled with skanks, plug-ins, and pixmasters content. Fuck that.

exactly...

twistyneck · 06-18-2003, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PANTYHOSE PROPHET

If what you are saying is true. Why resort to deception?
Couldn't they structure things to be truthful?

If people really knew what was in most paysites they would never join.

stevecore · 06-18-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PANTYHOSE PROPHET

If what you are saying is true. Why resort to deception?
Couldn't they structure things to be truthful?

truthfully, just get over the shave. it happens.

Rich · 06-18-2003, 11:42 PM

If you had proof, sure you could sue. It's the same as any company not paying their salesmen what they've earned. If some pissed off whistle blower ever sneaks info to the authorities and they investigate, in theory it's possible. The GFY drama would be off the wall.

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-18-2003, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore

truthfully, just get over the shave. it happens.

I know. Not like I can do anything about it. But, if the right person really got pissed off about it I think some shit would hit the fan in the industry. Just my opinion.

stevecore · 06-18-2003, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PANTYHOSE PROPHET

I know. Not like I can do anything about it. But, if the right person really got pissed off about it I think some shit would hit the fan in the industry. Just my opinion.

read my 1st post. it's highly unlikely that would happen.

twistyneck · 06-18-2003, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PANTYHOSE PROPHET

I know. Not like I can do anything about it. But, if the right person really got pissed off about it I think some shit would hit the fan in the industry. Just my opinion.

I agree. The problem is that if you are in New York and the shaver is in Florida or California, you are shit out of luck unless you have a lot of money to throw at the lawyers.

Having said that, it would be money well spent, especially if it was a big program.

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-18-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore

read my 1st post. it's highly unlikely that would happen.

You're probably right. Although, I think if a lawsuit were to even be initiated there would be much publicity. Wouldn't that be a bad thing?

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-19-2003, 12:12 AM

I guess I'm not alone in my analysis.
Look what I found on another board....
http://chat.ynotmasters.com/public/C...04&Site_ID=yno

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-19-2003, 07:00 AM

What do the morning people have to say about this?

neighborhood_bob · 06-19-2003, 07:56 AM

Sueing these programs would probably be a waste of time and
money. All the large ones are incorporated, most likely with
leased equipment and buildings. They have very little real
value to attach, and the corpotate status protects the assets
of the owners. It would also be nearly impossible to prove
that they actually shave. Anyone with some experience could
make the company records change to their advantage since
they are contained in a computer database.

Understand, I have no experience with possible sponsor
shaving. I don't know whether they do or don't.

I do know that a reasonable person should expect what I would
call "incidental shaving". A certain percentage of referrals are
going to get lost in the signup process. Different browsers and
surfer actions could corrupt the java-forwarding and/or cookie
state so that, by the time the signup is made, the sponsor
honestly doesn't know where it came from.

I think the advice above...live with it and stay with the best
converting sponsors...is probably the best way to go.

playa · 06-19-2003, 08:01 AM

Only TRUE way to prove they don't shave is when these large sponsors allow you to login to the actual proccessor stats page to see if it matches with your stats.

Kinda of like how oxcash does but unfortunately they are just partnership program

funkmaster · 06-19-2003, 08:03 AM

... nobody shaves ... period !

FlyingIguana · 06-19-2003, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore
yeah.... prove someone's shaving... the only way you're gonna prove that is to have the co. in question actually testify in court that they shave., and that aint gonna happen. get over it, deal with it... companies shave to stay in business. if they go out of business, who the fuck are you gonna promote?

an honest company?

Rich · 06-19-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by playa
Only TRUE way to prove they don't shave is when these large sponsors allow you to login to the actual proccessor stats page to see if it matches with your stats.

Kinda of like how oxcash does but unfortunately they are just partnership program

Programs that let you view processor pages can still shave, only in different ways.

playa · 06-19-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich

Programs that let you view processor pages can still shave, only in different ways.

good point,, that ain't 100% either

Kimmykim · 06-19-2003, 06:09 PM

"This isn't "cheating" as they refer to it, it's fraud and someone is going to get fed up and sue making headlines that will make the Enron scandal look like a sunday afternoon walk in the park. The news networks would just eat it up. Dragging ALL of us into the scandal

Can you see it? "Porn kingpins steal billions from unwary business men."

There would certainly end up being federal investigations into these practices and new laws passed to control it. "
\---------------------------------------

I'm really sorry to burst someone's bubble here but this just makes me laugh so hard I couldn't pass it up.

At the end of the day, most of you are worrying about the wrong things entirely.

Who pays you the most for your traffic?

WiredGuy · 06-19-2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
At the end of the day, most of you are worrying about the wrong things entirely.

Who pays you the most for your traffic?

I just wish more webmasters would think like you KK...
WG

FlyingIguana · 06-19-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredGuy

I just wish more webmasters would think like you KK...
WG

they should be up front about things. you say that you pay per sign up, pay per sign up. not every so many sign ups or however you want to count.

its dishonest and bullshit.

Kimmykim · 06-19-2003, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredGuy

I just wish more webmasters would think like you KK...
WG

Oh I don't, since too many people would make it in the business then. I can count on one hand those still around that were in my 'newb class' so to speak.

WiredGuy · 06-19-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingIguana
they should be up front about things. you say that you pay per sign up, pay per sign up. not every so many sign ups or however you want to count.

its dishonest and bullshit.

I suppose you also get really mad when a surfer from an unbillable country gets redirected to a dialer. Or when there's popunder's and popups.

WG

FlyingIguana · 06-19-2003, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredGuy

I suppose you also get really mad when a surfer from an unbillable country gets redirected to a dialer. Or when there's popunder's and popups.

WG

thats not the same as being dishonest...

aztecvision · 06-19-2003, 06:47 PM

SHAVE HAPPENS

Kimmykim · 06-19-2003, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingIguana

thats not the same as being dishonest...

If it weren't for delusional affiliates there would be no dishonest sponsors....

I don't know what the uproar is all about, you can thank your peers -- the cheating ass resellers -- if they weren't ripping off the sponsors then the sponsors wouldn't need to constantly try to figure out how to improve their margins.

It's just like shoplifting, someone is going to pay the price.

FlyingIguana · 06-19-2003, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

If it weren't for delusional affiliates there would be no dishonest sponsors....

I don't know what the uproar is all about, you can thank your peers -- the cheating ass resellers -- if they weren't ripping off the sponsors then the sponsors wouldn't need to constantly try to figure out how to improve their margins.

It's just like shoplifting, someone is going to pay the price.

thats like saying because people steal from sears its ok for sears to rip off other customers...

what do they actually do? they increase prices or eat the costs.

XYCash · 06-19-2003, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
"This isn't "cheating" as they refer to it, it's fraud and someone is going to get fed up and sue making headlines that will make the Enron scandal look like a sunday afternoon walk in the park. The news networks would just eat it up. Dragging ALL of us into the scandal

Can you see it? "Porn kingpins steal billions from unwary business men."

There would certainly end up being federal investigations into these practices and new laws passed to control it. "
\---------------------------------------

I'm really sorry to burst someone's bubble here but this just makes me laugh so hard I couldn't pass it up.

At the end of the day, most of you are worrying about the wrong things entirely.

Who pays you the most for your traffic?

Glad I gave you a good chuckle....that would appear to be one of my posts and from Ynot no less :-)

All it takes is one disgruntled employee and one pissed off affiliate and, if this truly is an industry practice, the entire house of cards will come crumbling down.

-joe

harvey · 06-19-2003, 06:57 PM

It's (relatively) easy to prove who's shaving, we tested it with 2 big programs we were suspicious about and bingo! one of them shaved at about 25% an the other almost 50%, test ran in a week. We approached the program guys, one of them magically stopped the shaving machine (at least for the account in question) and the other simply terminated the test account. They promised 35 PS, but in fact they were paying little more than 17.50 . Anyway, for common people or people living out of the countries where these programs are based, sueing them is just a waste of time and money. Plus, you can prove it for yourself, but not sure if it's enough proof for a judge, prolly not (even when it could be "reasonable doubt")

And no, won't say which programs are those because we ocassionally work for them in other areas, so if you're curious, run your own test

Rochard · 06-19-2003, 07:03 PM

Once again we come back to this subject. It seems to be coming on more and more, and it's only a matter of time before something happens.

I've said it a thousand times before.... If you want to know who shaves, go to the shows, find the programmers, and get them drunk. They'll tell you all you need to know.

It wouldn't be too hard to prove if someone shaves in a court if needed. The programs themselves aren't the only ones that have records - So do banks, and so do the credit card companies.

In our case, Lightspeed Media uses CCBill as our primary credit card processer. A simple court order to CCBill to get their records, and compare it to ours and you can tell where the truth is. (For the record I will state that Lightspeed Cash does not shave in any way, shape or form, nor could we if we wanted to. )

It's only a matter of time before some programmer quits and wants to raise hell and exposes the truth. When it happenes - with any luck - a class action lawsuit will take place with hundreds of webmasters in it...... I'd love to see this. I'm all for taking out the trash.

XYCash · 06-19-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard

It's only a matter of time before some programmer quits and wants to raise hell and exposes the truth. When it happenes - with any luck - a class action lawsuit will take place with hundreds of webmasters in it...... I'd love to see this. I'm all for taking out the trash.

Oye Rochard, that's exactly what I don't want to see happen. I was hoping for some sort of self policing before we see headlines screaming news about a brand new adult industry scandal. It's the last thing we need right now.

-joe

jimmyf · 06-19-2003, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23
Yes and I would happily sue anyone I KNEW shaved me and not say "Oh but they still convert better".

Cuncur

Halcyon · 06-19-2003, 07:16 PM

It is a big deal. And the sponsors who have nothing to hide are beginning to make cc post-back data available to 3rd party auditors, ClickTruth

Sloooowly we become a real industry.

XYCash · 06-19-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon
It is a big deal. And the sponsors who have nothing to hide are beginning to make cc post-back data available to 3rd party auditors, ClickTruth

Sloooowly we become a real industry.

aha...that is what I was looking for:-) nice find!

jimmyf · 06-19-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XYCash

Oye Rochard, that's exactly what I don't want to see happen. I was hoping for some sort of self policing before we see headlines screaming news about a brand new adult industry scandal. It's the last thing we need right now.

-joe

I think that's just what you'll see happen, you'll see headlines screaming. Once they start it, they just can't quit. They get use to a better life style and will keep doing it until the doors have a chain and lock on'm. I don't know'm but I dam sure do know there kind. Porn business is no Diff. in this aspect than main stream business, a crook is a crook.

PANTYHOSE PROPHET · 06-19-2003, 07:56 PM

Do I smell a 20/20? 60 mintues?

wargames · 06-19-2003, 07:57 PM

There are a shitload that do but what can you do. U have to prove it first

06-18-2003, 11:25 PM	#1
PANTYHOSE PROPHET Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 287	Sue the shavers? I know there has been alot of talk about sponsors shaving on this board. If that is the case couldn't that be grounds for a huge lawsuit? If someone were to break a shaver and won the lawsuit wouldn't all those who were promoting theier program be entitled to settlement? What are your thoughts?

06-18-2003, 11:26 PM	#2
stocktrader23 Let's do some business. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The dirty south. Posts: 18,781	Yes and I would happily sue anyone I KNEW shaved me and not say "Oh but they still convert better". __________________ Hands Free Adult - Join Once, Earn For Life "I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

06-18-2003, 11:27 PM	#3
jact Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Canada Posts: 9,134	How do you prove an amount to sue for? How do you prove they're shaving? How do you account for sponsors changing their payouts the day before court ("Terms and conditions may change at any time without notice")..... So who's shaving now? __________________ Free agent

06-19-2003, 06:57 PM	#36
harvey Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 9,266	It's (relatively) easy to prove who's shaving, we tested it with 2 big programs we were suspicious about and bingo! one of them shaved at about 25% an the other almost 50%, test ran in a week. We approached the program guys, one of them magically stopped the shaving machine (at least for the account in question) and the other simply terminated the test account. They promised 35 PS, but in fact they were paying little more than 17.50 . Anyway, for common people or people living out of the countries where these programs are based, sueing them is just a waste of time and money. Plus, you can prove it for yourself, but not sure if it's enough proof for a judge, prolly not (even when it could be "reasonable doubt") And no, won't say which programs are those because we ocassionally work for them in other areas, so if you're curious, run your own test __________________ This post is endorsed by CIA, KGB, MI6, the Mafia, Illuminati, Kim Jong Il, Worldwide Ninjas Association, Klingon Empire and lolcats. Don't mess around with it, just accept it and embrace the truth Last edited by harvey; 06-19-2003 at 06:59 PM..

06-19-2003, 07:03 PM	#37
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 74,693	Once again we come back to this subject. It seems to be coming on more and more, and it's only a matter of time before something happens. I've said it a thousand times before.... If you want to know who shaves, go to the shows, find the programmers, and get them drunk. They'll tell you all you need to know. It wouldn't be too hard to prove if someone shaves in a court if needed. The programs themselves aren't the only ones that have records - So do banks, and so do the credit card companies. In our case, Lightspeed Media uses CCBill as our primary credit card processer. A simple court order to CCBill to get their records, and compare it to ours and you can tell where the truth is. (For the record I will state that Lightspeed Cash does not shave in any way, shape or form, nor could we if we wanted to. ) It's only a matter of time before some programmer quits and wants to raise hell and exposes the truth. When it happenes - with any luck - a class action lawsuit will take place with hundreds of webmasters in it...... I'd love to see this. I'm all for taking out the trash. __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

06-18-2003, 11:28 PM	#4
cash69 So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: chandler, az Posts: 1,052	have your lawyer demand to login directly to the processor thru the reseller account.. that's proof right there

06-18-2003, 11:28 PM	#5
twistyneck So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hanging by the neck until dead. Posts: 4,660	Why would anyone use a sponsor? They all shave in one way or another. Trust nobody.

06-18-2003, 11:31 PM	#6
PANTYHOSE PROPHET Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 287	I myself am not the brightest, but I have to believe that if this practice is being done there must be someone out there doing some investigating, documenting, etc. It would be newsworthy to say the least.

06-18-2003, 11:32 PM	#7
stevecore Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,130	yeah.... prove someone's shaving... the only way you're gonna prove that is to have the co. in question actually testify in court that they shave., and that aint gonna happen. get over it, deal with it... companies shave to stay in business. if they go out of business, who the fuck are you gonna promote?

06-18-2003, 11:42 PM	#13
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	If you had proof, sure you could sue. It's the same as any company not paying their salesmen what they've earned. If some pissed off whistle blower ever sneaks info to the authorities and they investigate, in theory it's possible. The GFY drama would be off the wall.

06-19-2003, 12:12 AM	#18
PANTYHOSE PROPHET Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 287	I guess I'm not alone in my analysis. Look what I found on another board.... http://chat.ynotmasters.com/public/C...04&Site_ID=yno

06-19-2003, 07:00 AM	#19
PANTYHOSE PROPHET Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 287	What do the morning people have to say about this?

06-19-2003, 07:56 AM	#20
neighborhood_bob Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 83	Sueing these programs would probably be a waste of time and money. All the large ones are incorporated, most likely with leased equipment and buildings. They have very little real value to attach, and the corpotate status protects the assets of the owners. It would also be nearly impossible to prove that they actually shave. Anyone with some experience could make the company records change to their advantage since they are contained in a computer database. Understand, I have no experience with possible sponsor shaving. I don't know whether they do or don't. I do know that a reasonable person should expect what I would call "incidental shaving". A certain percentage of referrals are going to get lost in the signup process. Different browsers and surfer actions could corrupt the java-forwarding and/or cookie state so that, by the time the signup is made, the sponsor honestly doesn't know where it came from. I think the advice above...live with it and stay with the best converting sponsors...is probably the best way to go.

06-19-2003, 08:01 AM	#21
playa Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: atlanta, GA Posts: 6,432	Only TRUE way to prove they don't shave is when these large sponsors allow you to login to the actual proccessor stats page to see if it matches with your stats. Kinda of like how oxcash does but unfortunately they are just partnership program

06-19-2003, 08:03 AM	#22
funkmaster So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: shell beach Posts: 7,938	... nobody shaves ... period !

06-19-2003, 06:09 PM	#26
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	"This isn't "cheating" as they refer to it, it's fraud and someone is going to get fed up and sue making headlines that will make the Enron scandal look like a sunday afternoon walk in the park. The news networks would just eat it up. Dragging ALL of us into the scandal Can you see it? "Porn kingpins steal billions from unwary business men." There would certainly end up being federal investigations into these practices and new laws passed to control it. " \--------------------------------------- I'm really sorry to burst someone's bubble here but this just makes me laugh so hard I couldn't pass it up. At the end of the day, most of you are worrying about the wrong things entirely. Who pays you the most for your traffic?

06-19-2003, 06:47 PM	#32
aztecvision Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 979	SHAVE HAPPENS

06-19-2003, 07:16 PM	#40
Halcyon Spread The Pink! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: TrampStampStudios.com Posts: 8,609	It is a big deal. And the sponsors who have nothing to hide are beginning to make cc post-back data available to 3rd party auditors, ClickTruth Sloooowly we become a real industry. __________________ HAL on TEDx: Last edited by Halcyon; 06-19-2003 at 07:19 PM..

06-19-2003, 07:56 PM	#43
PANTYHOSE PROPHET Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 287	Do I smell a 20/20? 60 mintues?

06-19-2003, 07:57 PM	#44
wargames Kliris Join Date: May 2003 Location: ca Posts: 10,423	There are a shitload that do but what can you do. U have to prove it first __________________ ICQ 212-115-582 Email Steve at Vas Media Group .com