Do you have any idea whatsoever how much of a Tax the people in NI are under because of the "BNeeded" military support.


heh...

heh in NI black and white tv is free, but to buy a color TV you have to pay a tax, no shit... not kidding at all, they tax everything to try and make life as hard as they can.

Random door to door searches, road blocks every few miles on the road, a drive that should take you an hour can take up to 4 or 5 easily.


Imagine walking down a street and if you pick your nose somewhere, maybe you dont see it, but a camera saw you.


They dont even have police cars anymore in NI heh they have the SAS Paddy wagons.

All British forces have ever done their is to harrass people and to make life as miserabl as they can.

Why do they stay? #1 the taxes, #2 for the ego .



England has called the IRA terrorists since the IRA was formed. Do you think they could ever really just leave and live it down?

that would be like Sadam Hussein telling the usa to get the hell out of his country and them doing it...



Alot of war is all about ego, who has the bigger dick, who thinks they can beat down a smaller guy. Rarely is it for real lands.




Look at the USA , we slaughtered thousands of indians, called them savages, now we keep them on thier own TINY piece of land.


Our exscuse? Oh we needed more land for our nation. What about their nation...


Another example of a big guy pushing a little guy around.

Were they savages? No, but propaganda works that way so every american at that time thought they were.


Are the IRA terrorists, no they just want thier country back...

A frequently misspelled word according to my 8th grade binder. ;-)

This is all very good, but you didn't answer my question.

Whose to tell what would happen, im sure their would be chaos, but then again Ireland does have its own police force and military.

South Ireland and NI share the same military... THEY are ONLY seperate countries because Britain has built a more or less a berlin wall to seperate them.

Literally a wall...



Have you ever noticed, the Irish Army never helps the SAS? heh they dont want to, and its the same military that the SI has...

Heh i was typing Im old ya know :thumbsup

:thumbsup

Surprising, but fair enough.

It may be fruitless, but it can be interesting.

I see your point, but I feel that they are just that - Minor Issues, that are boring and irrelevant to discuss.

We can't change the world typing here, but it can be interesting to see people's different views on what is actually happening right now.

Certainly a dark and somewhat fatalistic viewpoint.

That humanity isn't improving itself (evolution if you will) is an opinion.

I certainly can't present any evidence to the contrary, but if you don't hope and strive for the best, there's no need to get out of bed.

Violence does exist of course - I agree. It appears where are opinions clearly differ is I believe in violence for the 'common good'. For the good and development of the world in general.

I remember you saying once that you think the US should certainly act in it's own national interest. If invading Iraq benefits the US, then point made.

However, it can also be argued that invading Iraq may only benefit the US in the short term.

A more diplomatic approach and developing a coalition might have had the same results, without international backlash (which continues) that is actually harming the US's interests.

Self interest as part of the world, instead of self interest as US king of the world, may benefit the US much more in the medium and long term.

And if WMD's are not being found, and elected officials are overtly lying to the American people, that is a very big issue. Which would need to be dealt with (in other words new leadership which are very accountable to the people).

Yes indeed.

Sorry about that.


I think that's the crux (sp?) of the issue - if the British pulled out, would the situation get better or worse?

Who's to tell.

Alright now that I'm here I wonder just what the fuck is sarah talking about. It's simple the British need to get the fuck out of NI, they need to shut down their outposts and military checkpoints, take down the walls and shit. If people want to fight then let them fight it out, NI should be a part of Ireland. How can anyone defend the Britsh, you realize this is the country that has a fucking hand in everyones shit the world over, from India, to the Falklands in Argentina. Those fuckers have never totally released their grip on shit from hundreds of years ago. What about the children that need cover just to talk to school because the protestants attack them, their fucking marches every year. If some group of motherfuckers marches through my neighborhood every year celebrating the death and control of my family and land, I would probably kill a motherfucker too. War is not terrorism, they are not the same.

Evolution includes no idea of progress but rather just a probability of being more suited to a particular environment. I'm not sure how to apply that to humanity as a whole or whether to assume that peace is somehow the end goal or that nature will somehow guide us there.

I think the evidence is in my favor at this point. It's not that I think things are worse, it's that I think they are the same. Society is of course evolving in the metaphorical sense of "changing". It's very different than it was two millenia ago, two centuries ago and in a lesser way of course two decades ago. Is it "better"? Depends on the benchmark. More technologically advanced certainly. That's one obvious sign. We live longer. We get around faster. We brush our teeth.

Are people or their respective political systems less likely to fight wars against each other to solve disputes or to make themselves feel safer? No, I don't think so at all.

We've hit this strange point in time where weapons are becoming so terrible that it would take extraordinary circumstances for someone to risk them being used upon themselves. The Cold War remained cold for it's entire 45 years. I don't see any enlightenment there. I see fear of too much being destroyed too fast.

The idea that we might fight less wars but that they will be much more terrible doesn't sound like "progress" to me.

Are political ideologies that revolve upon the principle of domination slowly withering away? Maybe, maybe not. Overall, governments are more consensual than they ever have been and the principles of democracy and it's second cousin egalitarianism are infectious and spreading. The above though would scare the hell out of me except I'm not that prone to such fears.

I don't know where it's all heading. I'm just hurtling and hurdling along.

Please don't post any more.

You're only embarassing yourself.

It's a very good argument on either side I think. Besides Gulf War I, what other examples would you give of such coalitions in history? Such coalitions with everyone acting in their best interest (that seems to be the case to me) are very nearly impossible and certainly exceedingly rare.

Of course there was a coalition but it doesn't meet your criteria for "coalition". What would? What wouldn't? Why?

Some international backlash, yes that is true. However, there is also the normal round of reconciliation and we have seen a number of powerful countries and organizations in the world talking a little tougher on the issue of weapons proliferation (China, Russia, EU (today)) so even on the world stage there is a mixed bag of results.

It seems to me that countries attempt to influence the world in direct proportion to their ability to do so and in this very recent
post-Soviet era the influence of the United States may have even reached the point of ominousness in the minds of many. I think that is blown way out of proportion and is more psychological than anything. In many parts of the world, the US was seen as the sole counter-weight to Soviet influence. There is now a void.

Maybe one nation always has to be perceived as the "evil empire". All roads lead to Rome.

Interesting points.

And of course it's impossible to say how things will be ... say, in 1,000 years.

Humanity might have progressed past many current conflicts and might have become more adept at avoiding them and resolving issues without violence.

Perhaps not.

Every single person on this planet wants a good life, and that's why I believe we're (even subconsciously) working towards a better world and society.

If there's no hope, there's no point.

But these are just my opinions, and of course I have no proof for them.

I didn't think you would have too much to say after that. It seems like you are making a lot of comments on a situation that you know very little about.

You could well be right that these coalitions are rare.

Without doing a detailed search I couldn't present many more examples.

Off the top of my head though - Kosovo was a successful coalition.

I'm thinking of NATO. Where a strong team of nations work towards a common decided interest.

The "Coalition Of The Willing" did have a very flimsy feel to it.

Especially since it may have looked good on paper, but very very few of those countries contributed manpower of even money to the war.

Your last paragraph - that's probably true. Just the US seems to be acting overly antaganistic at the moment, and often treating allies with disdain.

From 1990 - 2000, there was a use of force (Clinton & Bush), but mostly done with international approval.

Yes 9/11 did make it clear to America some of the bad feeling towards it. But why make a bad situation worse by disregarding international diplomacy?

Use of force and international diplomacy have been proven to work together in the past.

Ever since Bush II came to office, the opinion of the US internationally has gone downhill continuously. In a nutshell - it is because that Administration seems to consistently disregard Internation diplomatic protocol, and many decisions appear to actually spit in the face of allies.

Just as a quick example - the US may not agree with the ICC, but there's no reason to become quite so confrontational about it.

This agressive use of politics by the current administration is not making them any friends.

One side effect of these (as well as other events of course) is less international investment going into the US.

I would honestly say the same about you.

From where have you educated yourself about the situation in NI?

Do you live in the area?

I haven't lived there, but have had family and friends that did and do. It's easy to educate yourself.

Do you question that Britain was an imperialist country that ruled lands far and wide on this earth and has yet to remove their grip from all of them? It's very true.

Without the IRA there would be no representation of the Irish Catholics in NI, while I wouldn't agree wtih everything the IRA has done, without them the situation would be much worse for the Irish Catholics and general population there.

If someone marched through your neighborhood every year for a season celebrating the taking of your land and freedom would you sit by and not care?

Do you think outposts and military checkpoints are neccessary in a supposedly free country, or are the a sign of occupation?

Study your history, I'm sure you are a smart woman but this issue is not a black and white terrorism issue like our dumbass president makes everything.

Like all these things, it's important to get objective information.

You're right though, it is easy to read up about it.

British was most definitely an imperialist country.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any more genuine British colonies. If you can, please list them.

India was handed over many decades ago (Gandi and all that)

Australia has been independent for over 100 years.

...etc...

Sinn Fein are in the Government. Is that not the best representation for Catholics?

It would certainly be annoying.

BUT - if you don't agree with the KKK (for example), are you going to start a riot and start attacking them and their families?

The problem I have, is I can't see how Britain benefits in any way (apart from keeping the peace) by staying in NI.

If the situation would be worse without the British, and if the violence could then spread in SI, is that a good thing?

Like every situation, it certainly isn't black and white.

But perhaps a very important question is "did bombing indiscrimantely in London actually help NI?"

I'll tell you something Sarah one of the best documentaries and articles I've ever seen on the situation was done by PBS Frontline, here's the link you might want to check it out, it's pretty damn good.

Frontline IRA

Really it is hard for Britain to leave because the protestants of NI believed they were British and not Irish and they wouldn't allow it to happen. They are the ones who demand the British military and protection and didn't allow the poor Irish Catholics voting rights or representation. The IRA and Sinn Fein formed out of the downing of a peaceful movement of the Irish Catholics demanding their rights and being crushed and killed by the British, that's what made it violent.

I think we'll have to see the long-term trend to really decide what is going on. There were many articles and polls in the 1990's showing "anti-Americanism" on the rise in the world - well before George Bush became president. The war in Iraq was the first large-scale ground war the US has fought in the post-Soviet era. Maybe that was just a catalyst to accelerate an already inevitable trend.

Then again, maybe Bush is just a cowboy president and everything will go back to normal after.

I suspect much more of the former than the latter though. I think a one superpower world is going to cause a balance-of-power shift in attitudes towards America in the same way that any world power has been viewed throughout history.

We should all be glad it's the United States and not the USSR that survived.

There is already a country by that name. They want to join it, even though they aren't wanted... Also, even though they could join it by moving 5 miles south, instead of trying to force the Unionist *majority* into Ireland through force and threat of force.

That's called TV License. It's the method that *all* of the UK uses to pay for public television.

(See, the UK is a small country. Without publically funded television, there would hardly be any local programming. TV licenses are paid for by anyone with a TV, instead of everyone who pays tax. Big whoop.)

It's apolitical decision, consistent throughout the UK, not a method to oppress the Northern Irish.

I will say it again... The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain a part of the UK. All the pro-IRA arguments tend to fall apart when they face that fact.

I'm certainly not denying anti-americanism existed 10, even 20 years ago.

But, I don't think it's as easy as "it's on the rise".

What's being experienced now is a quite different type of anti-americanism - I don't think the US has experienced such animosity from huge sections of the public before, from Allies, including Canada, the UK and many others.

The US is not popular at the minute.

And whatever people may say about him, Clinton was a very good international politician.

Are you saying it's the lesser of two evils?

Cuba's communist, and I'm sure you'll agree there's much worse countries you can live in.

I'm not saying I'm for it or even agree with it, but is communism evil?

Some might say capitalism that cares not for huge sections of the population that can't pay even for basic healthcare, is evil.

I think our current US administration is full of assholes, as a matter of fact almost all politicians are assholes. However with that being said I don't care about the bullshit international consensus on the US. No one is going to take down the US except for us ourselves and if we keep electing politicians like Bush and Clintion we are going to have some real big problems. They both suck ass.

At the end of the day, if you want to fight, face up to some guy down the pub who is the same size of you.

And be prepared to get your ass kicked - At the end of the fight, you can sit down together and share a beer - Win or lose - That is a fight.


Sticking a bomb in a rubbish basket beside a bus queue and then telephoning the Police saying the bomb is in a different area, knowing the Police would drive innocent people towards where the bomb really is - Is downright cowardice - Call it terrorism if you like -

But stand and say - We are Catholic - We are the IRA. Really?

Just like the Protistants that want to fight because you are Catholic and they belong to another church - Talk about a bunch of fucked up hooligans.



Don't stand up and say this is for your faith - Because, brother - Faith is something you just ain't got

????? all of the above is total crap, are you making this up as you go along? the population of the falkland islands see themselves and want to remain british. they were invaded by argentina in 1982 and we went to war with argentina and kicked them back out - much to the delight of the islanders. So pretty much all of that quote from you is wrong.

with regards to northern ireland, as sexysarah said, the only people who want northern ireland to remain british are the MAJORITY of people in northern ireland. mainland british people couldn't give a shit about it, and it has no ecconomic benefit whatsoever.

but if the army pulled out there would be civil war and that's the only reason they are their.

Hey

How about Saudi Arabia?
They supplied the funding for 911 and all of the terrorists had Saudi passports. Is oil and the Rockerfellers all that matters?

White people can't be terrorists, same as black people can't be racist. :p

I haven't read this thread except the first post .
Yesterday I watched a documentary about Northern-Ireland and that was really sad what's going on their. To me it looked like even worse than the former Berlin wall. Maybe I will go their this summer to see with my own eyes how crazy people are :321GFY

Politics is a whore

History reminder. What happened to Hungary, Estonia, Albania, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Romania, and Ukraine during the Cold War?

December, 1991. Even the Russians didn't want to live under Communism.

Now ask our neighbors the Canadians what they think of the US? Ok, some of them are mad at the US because we fought one war without them. ;-)

Communism isn't evil, it's just fucking stupid. Democratic Socialsim now that's a system with some potential, but obviously much harder to make work in a very large country.

Sure. Somalia, Ethopia, Zaire.

I live in Miami. Boatloads of Cubans willing to face imprisonment and drowning in 90 miles of shark infested waters show up in small boats all the time on the shores of this evil imperialistic nation. What makes them take that risk?

Digipimp,

That was your 1000th post. Congratulations.

I guess they're coming to Miami for the hot cuban women, oh wait a minute maybe not. :1orglaugh The fucked up shit is when you let the cubans in and the hatians they just put them back on their rafts and send'em floating.

This is interesting. When this was brought up, I was mostly just looking to investigate the question. I assumed that there were enough differences that the US position on terrorism didn't apply to N. Ireland...

After 134 posts on the subject, I am more and more inclinded to think that Republican paramilitaries in Norther Ireland are simply terrorists, and that the US would be hipporcritical not to intervene there like they have elsewhere.

That's what I think.

wow the US hypocritical, I can hardly believe it. welcome to reality. war does not equal terrorism and there are no innocents in this world except the children.

Don't forget about the fucking ETA assasins that we have in Spain, luckilly this weekend a new bomb was disabled before killing 200 students that were doing an exam near the bomb placement.

To answer one of the questions abiut NI. If the Brits were to pull out completely all that would happen probably would be the relocation of some rich British businesses and a small power struggle from within the Irish community for a short time. Life would go on as normal. It is all economics not religious or for any other reason. Some of the young fanatics might be led to believe so on both sides, but the real people that finance the war and propagate the hatred on both sides do it for one reason only money (CASH).
Don't ever believe otherwise :ak47:

You know exactly what i meant. Before 1919, it was nothing more than brutality on the part of the British. There was no wortwhile unified resistance. 1919 was when republicans actually got together and fought back.

The main point i was correcting was "the farthest they got was North Ireland."

That's not what the Good Friday Agreement said at all. Here are a couple of the main points:

• <i>Recognise that the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland must both agree, by separate referrenda, to a United Ireland by majority consent before it can take place, and that no other people have a right to vote in any such decision.</i>
  
• <i>Recognise that, for the forseeable future, the majority of people of Northern Ireland wish to remain within the UK and that must be respected.</i>
  
• <i>The UK government must agree to a United Ireland if the majority of citizens in Northern Ireland vote for it.</i>

You obviously haven't seen much, then. Even when my dad was a young man, there were signs in store fronts for job openings with "Taigs need not apply." (Taigs beinga derogatory term for Irish people). I'm talking about the 60's and 70's here. Hell, negroes had more rights in the US than catholics did in Northern Ireland at the time.

No genuine reasons? How about hundreds of years of occupation, rape and brutality. Republicans just want our country back. My father was beaten by police at a peaceful demonstration. My father was at Sunday Bloody Sunday. We have plenty to be angry about.

It's their final stranglehold on the Irish. It's the last piece of the proud British Empire. Then there's people like David Trimble (Ulster Unionist Leader) who considers the Republic of Ireland as nothing more than "a pathetic sectarian state." Unionists have a very low opinion of the Irish. They think they're better than Irish people.

And you think the IRA had nothing to do with that? If it weren't for the IRA, the republican movement would have had no leverage to even suggest a power sharing government.

I'm curious. Why is it that you single out republican paramilitaries, and not paramilitary groups in general? Do you have some sort of vendetta against republicans/catholics, or have you just not heard of the UDA, the UVF and other similar groups?

Fuckin get'em Choda, they don't know the history or the reality. They don't know how peaceful means were tried first, they don't know how that most Irish weren't even allowed to vote, work in certain places, go to certain parts of the cities and other shit. If it weren't for the IRA there wouldn't be any representation for the minorities right now.

I think a terrorist is a terrorist whether I agree with them or not. I count the Unionist para's as being just as terrorist as the Republican ones. It is just easier to discuss the group that is in question, and I admit, easier to criticize the group I disagree with more.

Also, I really hate the idea that this is about Catholic vs. Protestant. A long time ago, it was half about that, and half about empire. Today, it is about whether to stay in the Union or not (10%) and organized crime (90%) and we all know it.

Lots of interesting posts in here... my view? I'm glad to be living where I am.

Simply put, if the country looks like a warzone then it's got to make you wonder about the ruling government and whose interests they are really protecting. A government on the offensive against it's own people is fundamentally wrong. The military presence there is self evident of an ongoing civil war... this place never gave up fighting as it's own soverign nation.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to convince me that Northern Ireland is rightfully a 'province' of England. Come on, this is a land that has been raped, pillaged, taxed and further occupied so terribly that the poor motherfuckers might as well be living in Somalia or North Korea.

Similarly, I think the history of that nation matters less and less. The reality of the situation is that in 2003 NI should be a peaceful and prosperous democracy of SOME sort. It should have an insignificant military to protect it's 'borders' and nothing but regular old police should be needed to maintain order in it's cities. The presence in their cities looks to be military martial law. Can't do it without that? Well then, it's time to reinvent it's government in some drastic and fundamental way because obviously the English have it all wrong right now.

Cheers,

Brad

Do the letters WMD mean anything to you? The IRA blows up a car or shoots some poor slob in his car. Is the IRA flying airliners into skyscrapers and killing thousands of people? Are they planning on setting off atomic weapons or bio/chem weapons of mass destruction in major cities.

DUH!

I don't think it's about catholics vs protestants. Assume all English were catholics. The IRA would still have done what they did. It's about occupation, not religion. It just so happens that republicans are catholics, and loyalists are protestents (in <i>most</i> cases).

The organized crime is a shame. But you're a fool if you believe that only the IRA are involved in organized crime, and the loyalist paramilitaries have clean hands.

Anyone who saw those pictures a few months ago of children being walked to school and the animals on the other side of the fence shouting and screaming their abuse at the children knows that NI has some deep seated problems still (and I don't which side which was on). When this was happening, their wasn't a Brit in sight. The most likely outcome if the Brits were to withdraw today would be absolute chaos and mass murder.

Notwithstanding Trimble is an arsehole, that is the most pathetic statement I've seen in a long time.


A large slice of the problem is arseholes like stripperbiz and videovoyeur living in the past. Time has moved on guys. The republicans are (albeit, temporarily suspended) in power. If a majority in NI vote to becaome part of a united Ireland, THEY WILL. IT'S CALLED DEMOCRACY.

Get with the program guys....

IRA is a terror organization. What's next?