Well, I've pointed this out before. But back in '96, when my husband was in the biz, there was a big concern about whether the IPSP model was even "legal" so to speak ... and allowed under card association rules.

Obviously the IPSPs proceeded anyway, but the original "model" was always in question.

Now that the industry has really pissed them off, they're really cracking down with all of the rules --- including this one.

So, as usual, the industry only has itself to blame -- even on this one.

I'd bet Mastercard wouldn't be making that demand if billing practices were ethical and under control.

Indeed. But it's pointed out in the filing that VISA came up with a solution that didn't require anyone else to totally change their business around.

Extra paperwork? Yep. A fee? Yep. Making the processors redesign their businesses entirely? Nope.

MC could very easily use the VISA method of making each URL register and pay a fee.

The cost would again be absorbed by everyone but MC, so cost isn't an issue.

It's too late to say the 3rd party model is illegal and shouldn't have been allowed. MC and VISA let it go on for years so they are in part responsible for the fact that it even exists.

Try to think of it this way:

If an affiliate is cheating a sponsor program for a long time, what do they do?

They take all of the affiliate's money and tell them to go to hell.

If the sponsor could do more, they would throw the book at them.

That's all MC and Visa are doing.

It's the same type of stuff that's posted on this board day in and day out ... just on the other side.

And I agree.

MC would probably be a lot easier to work with had things been done differently in the past. ;)

I have no problem with them fining processors for excessive chargebacks. The processors should be making sure the sites they process for aren't shit and don't do crappy things like burying charges in fine print and stuff.

I also have no problem with them counting credits towards the c/b ratio. I know why that was done.

I'm just saying MC has gone way too overboard in some of the stuff they demand and has done some crappy things, too.

Actually, I agree.

But when people have screwed me in business, I go for blood with everything I've got.

Not everything they've done is fair. Some of it is overboard. But it's totally understandable from the perspective of what happened.

If you read the complaint, it's pretty clear that Epoch took things way too far in their relationship with Mastercard.

If I was MC, I'd be pissed too.

(Ooops ... there's goes that spy thing again ... :1orglaugh )

:uhoh, oh boy . . . .

Not all of it's understandable to me. ;) The stuff I posted doesn't make sense.

Is MC trying to come up with a solution or are they just trying to stick it to everyone because they can (even if to some degree it was warranted and asked for)?

I'd rather see things get fixed, then a big penis contest between MC and the world of online porn, because MC's dick is a hell of a lot bigger.

While I agree with you 100% I must ask you....
have you ever tried to cancel a gym membership?
It is meer impossible to cancel it.
But you dont see them having all these problems.
Why?
because when you go into that damn place they have you sign papers.

So they are singling out the sex industry.

Well, the reason it makes sense to me is the following:

Mastercard, like any large corporation, is a bureaucracy. So, in a lot of ways, their sketchy enforcement of various rules kinda makes sense. They probably didn't get around to a lot of things until it became a huge problem.

Second: Look at checks, just as an example. A lot of people, both online and offline, don't bother with it anymore because the bounced checks became too much of a hassle --- regardless of the money you could make.

Mastercard doesn't need us, and they obviously came to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle. So they're taking the hard line: Get in line or Get Out.

Look at all of the discussions on this board. There's maybe a handful of webmasters who have expressed any interest in cleaning up the industry's billing practices.

The overall attitude of the vast majority is "Fuck the consumer 'til the end."

Would you want to process for these guys?

I wouldn't. So I can understand it.

EPOCH is the bomb and SoCalCash supports them %100 as we feel any processor that is written up in FORBES magazine(on a good note), sues mastercard and does not allow kiddie porn from the start has the tools to keep this industry moving forward.

Keep it up EPOCH!

:thumbsup

Yea. I know. :(

didn't epoch have payment problems a few years ago as well?

nevermind, you smell like somebody who has something to gain by bagging on epoch.

bottom line is that while epoch may very well have been out of compliance (according to the 1% rule) they were not out of compliance by the 2.5% rule... and since they were never informed of a 1% rule that makes it a wee bit difficult to abide by it.

Kinda like seeing speed limit signs everywhere saying 55... and then getting pulled over for doing 55 in a 35 zone.

Not to mention that the way that MC does business is simply b.s. bully tactics. Perhaps if you ever had your own merchant account you would understand how massive and ridiculous fines can get for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

It sounds like you know a bit about processing, but 2003 is not 1996.. and having a spouse in the biz back in the day hardly qualifies you as an expert. So why not shut your mouth til you have something accurate and/or positive to contribute to the conversation.

Don't forget.. epoch going down would be a massive blow to this industry. Not good for anybody, even if you dont process with them.

Jeez.

On the brighter side. I'm glad to get a notification about that whopping 3 day payment delay. Definitely prefer that over having smoke blown up my ass.

After reading this thread I've learned 2 things.

1) Epoch is a class act, 2 weeks notice for a 72 hour delay is plenty. They could have easily changed pay periods from weekly to bi-monthly (like some other major processors do) and called it a "policy change" and improved their cash flow by much more than 72 hours. Instead they told the truth, very classy. AND payments to resellers aren't delayed at all, so your webmasters will still get paid on time as always.

2) Nevermind is an idiot with an agenda.

Yeah, well, heard all this before. Yawn.

I've already been accused of being a MC spy. If you had actually read the lawsuit (which you obviously haven't) it's pretty clear that MC doesn't give a flying fuck about any of us, including Epoch. They won't even meet with them.

Maybe you haven't noticed but PayPal has cut off adult all together. Humboldt has cut off a lot of adult merchant accounts including Hughes, among others. WSB is out of business. Epoch's having cash flow problems.

Ibill and others have been fined as well. The list goes on and on.

We'll see who the "idiots" are when you're out of business.

Hello Kimmykim, Dumbass here. Smile. Your on candid camera!

doesn't it cost about 30$ to charge back a credit card.. for each transaction... why not just do 2 transactions for 20$.. instead of rebill monthly rebill every 2 weeks.. then if mastercard says if you refund them it still goes twards the charge back ratio.. tell the customers becuase of mastercard regulations we cannot credit your account and make it seem like mastercard is the fuckers not letting people have their money back.. why give them money back if it's going to end up fucking you the same way as if they charged back.. if you just told them to piss off your ratio would be under 1% becuase most people can't pay that extra 10$ to charge back and won't go thru the hastle to do it.. and have to tell their wife we are charging back a porn site.. if mastercard wants to play dirty.. play right back at them.. because out of 10 people that say they are going to charge back.. only 1 or 2 will

Uh ... I think your assumptions are wrong.

This is a really brilliant plan ... if you want to make the situation much worse.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

that's why i don't run a credit card processing site.. i'd be telling everyone with mastercard to get fucked and this call just cost you another 20$

ok and your point is what? that all cc processors will die?

This isn't a board for surfers man...

There ya go. Good thinking.

Til MC tells you to get fucked and you and all the sites processing through you can't take MC anymore.

Things are changing in the industry fast.

thanks for the heads up, you guys rock!

When the fuck did I ever say it was, 'man'?

In my original post, that you apparently never read, I said *occasionally* I join a paysite. You never heard of a webmaster joining a paysite? :1orglaugh

Webmasters are surfers too.

It's a distinct possibility.

I don't think IBill will die because Intercept has pretty deep pockets.

But I won't be surprized if Ibill dumps adult either. Intercept has stated they're going to work closely with MC and Visa, and that "high risk" adult processing is not a big priority for them.

As for the rest, who knows? I thought Epoch had some deep pockets but, with today's news, that may not be the case.

Unless there's a fundamental change in the industry's attitude toward billing --- which is highly unlikely --- yeah, they might all go under.

Especially if MC cuts them off, as they are threatening to do with Epoch.

I can definetly confirm this. I have more customers calling me to complain about gym memberships than porn memberships. I've seen gyms that continue to rebill months after cancellation, even after registered letters have been sent.

Paycom kicks ass. I am very happy they let everyone know about the payment delay. This shows they are very professional and care about their webmasters instead of leaving us in the dark. I have no problems with waiting a few extra days for payment.

:)

Who cares about gyms? Even if every gym on the planet is the biggest scammer on earth, what difference does it make?

We're in adult. They're not. They can probably get away with it. We can't.

You guys are going to be using the same old gym excuse to your dying day I guess ...

Whine, whine, whine ...

Gyms can scam ... why can't I?

Whine, whine, whine ...

And please don't try to tell me that porn sites are sooooo sqeaky clean on this .... Hah!

:1orglaugh

Ok and if all cc processors go under, what will replace them in this industry? Checks payments?

There will be the overseas processors trying to dodge the rules, and that's already happening. I'm sure a lot of people will go with them until Visa and MC chase those operations down.

Someone on this board (I forget who) predicted that MC/Visa will eventually only approve processors where MC/Visa completely control the billing interfaces and such, leaving no discretion for third parties.

I think that's a good possibility down the road.

You know what? It's crazy for me to even bother with a comment. Especially when I haven't read the rest of your nonsense, nor will I since by the time I get home from LA tomorrow it will be gone. And by the time I go to LA in a couple hours, no one will care.

But at the end of the day, it's a fuck all shame that I have to come out and call you stupid.

I'm just not as big of a person as I thought.

Such is life.

OK, I take it back. I did read this thread from the bottom up. Then I got to this post and I realized I was right to call you stupid. Stupid. Stupid of me to bother reading the rest of your drivel.

So I'm not.

Have a nice evening.

If I was an Epoch webmaster I would only want to know the following...

<b>
Have the fines been paid in full ?
Have the chargeback generating sites been offloaded ?
</b>





Unless I was satisfied with the answers, as a businessman I would have to presume this is going the same way as WSB. There are a lot of horrible similarities.

Kimmy: I have three words for you.

CASH FLOW PROBLEMS

That's the bottom line. Everything else is bullshit.

It's nice that you're still a loyal cheerleader, but maybe you should be looking for another job.

I hope for your sake that Epoch and Epassporte are truly seperate entities ....

At least in the cash flow department.

It might be "stupid" to count on these people for your future.

Call me what you like but I don't work for, much less blindly defend a company that has cash flow problems.

THAT would be stupid.

The lawsuit says MC is fining Epoch $2,500 per day and that MC is demanding that they completely restructure their business ...

Namely, host all of the websites that they process for which, I assume, would be impossible.

So, even though Epoch says they are in compliance, apparently MC doesn't agree -- which is what this most recent fine and, consequently, lawsuit is about.

The thing I dont understand if Visa currently is the card of choice on the net as we were told when it was time to pay the $750. Why dont these processors stop processing Mastercard, if its going to ruin them ? Also start pushing discover signups, have a pop up on the site" ever think of getting a discover card "and it goes to the discover website.

So basically Epoch have been in violation, and MC alledge Epoch are still in violation. I would guess that means Epoch absolutely has to win this lawsuit.

I'm am just guessing here, and could be completely and totally wrong. But obviously Epoch will have known about this for some time. I wonder if Epassporte is their 'get out of jail' card for when Epoch goes under ? Never hurts to hedge your bets...

The problem is revenue.

The lawsuit says that 40 percent of Epoch's revenue comes from MC.

So, if they lose MC, that's a big drop in revenue and would potentially cause more financial problems.

It's probably not as big of a problem for a company like Intercept/Ibill, which has a ton of revenue from other non-adult divisions.

But it's apparently more difficult for a company like Epoch.

Yeah, according to the lawsuit, Epoch's problems with MC go back to 2001. So it's been an ongoing problem for a couple of years.

I agree that they're probably hedging their bets with Epassporte. Although if Epoch goes under, they may have some trouble selling Epassporte.

When Epoch had financial problems about three years ago, it took them a long time to recover and rebuild their reputation with webmasters. I assume the same problem would apply in this situation.

Chris, thanks for the update, It's nice when a company keeps it's clients and everyone UPDATED on things going on. Class act and will continue to get our biz.

chris(pornoman) if you have some time, ICQ me or email dannyh at simplecom.net got something you might be interested in:)

well, we don't use epoch presently---but i am impressed with this no nonsense approach in dealing with their webmasters. an upfront approach when dealing with money issues is always best.

i like their style, and IF they prevail against MC we should all kiss their feet.

but if they don't ?

Wow. All bow to the almighty nevermind.

Apparently she can predict the future and knows more about billing than even those who actually do it.

You remind me of an every idiot who likes to play smart cause it makes them feel good about themselves.... I SWEAR THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!

Why dont you stop making predictions?

Or is this your genious husband who was in the biz in 96 that's giving you all this inside info? hahahaha

Hooper,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Nevermind, why don't you give us some insight into you experience as a webmaster in the adult business or explain to us lowly beings your background in credit card processing. You are extremely opinionated yet for all we know you could be working in the local Burger King. Unless you have run adult websites, had to deal with members trying to rip you off. Processors like Ibill doing their best to damage webmasters profits or servers that have to run 24/7 without so much as 5 mins down time then really your comments mean little. Lets hear your experience of this industry ?

Epoch are without doubt the best processing company i have had the pleasure of dealing with, they are standing up for the webmaster and themselves and as far as i can see are the only ones doing so. Mastercard and Visa are imposing unfair trading practices on the adult industry as a whole, not just Epoch but all online processors a 1% chargeback rate is both ridiculous and unfair when compared to other industries that have 5% or more and do not face this sort of restrictive practice.

Nevermind you obviously have some sort of resentment to the adult industry and your biased against it is very plain to see, you jump at any chance to put it down and are the voice of doom and gloom every time a tit bit of news is released. Unless you can openly tell us here at GFY what your involvement is in the adult industry i for one will consider you posts the ravings of some ill informed person who has some private vendetta against sex on the internet and treat you posts with the disdain they deserve.


Cris, Clay, Rand, Amparo you are great people thank you for taking a professional stand on these issues and thank you for keeping us the webmasters informed, i am behind you 100%

Cindy xx

OK, here's a natural extension to this thread. Personally I hope Epoch will prevail but the very fact MC/VISA have a lock on our money as well as the internet, and MC/VISA isn't being looked at askance by the FTC for monopoly violations, says something about the chances of success, I'm afraid.

IBill/Intercept does not have seem to have deep pockets. They can't even pay us, and as I understand it they're up to their eyeballs in debt and other problems, caused in part because of the WorldCom fiasco, to the point where we've noticed transactions that took place *after* the resolution of it are still unpaid. 85% of their processing is adult. They can't chuck it without stripping their entire operation down to almost nothing, and as it stands now they apparently have trouble keeping their statistics server online.

So far, at least two IPSPs I know of have gone under, and Dutch Billing just introduced immediate new rules that make it pretty much unworkable to do business with them.

What to do? It seems clear that as a minimum the IPSPs will have to completely restructure or die, and perhaps even VISA/MC will not be an option for adult merchants in the future. We got our own merchant account just for this reason but there seem to be concerns there as well for the future given the earthquakes that keep coming, starting with the VISA registration fees last year.

There are no other options that look trustworthy. Anyone have any ideas? Anyone more than just a little nervous at the way things are proceeding in general for payment solutions?

-doug

cmon Cindy. You must be either a paid iBill basher or on the epoch payroll.

Which is it?

Wrong on both counts i am just a lowly webmaster working to earn a crust just like most webmasters here. But i truly believe Epoch are a fantastic company and that Ibill and my past experience with them sucks the big one.

I also praise Bot Buster.com openly on GFY i suppose i work for them as well ?

Cindy xx

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