Looks like AC Pay got bit by VISA - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

jerryfan2000 · 05-29-2003, 04:50 PM

I am citizen of Canada and Taiwan. If I have presence in both countries but I mainly stay in Canada, will I be able to process from Visa asian region and get paid to my Canada bank??

Tipsy · 05-29-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryfan2000
I am citizen of Canada and Taiwan. If I have presence in both countries but I mainly stay in Canada, will I be able to process from Visa asian region and get paid to my Canada bank??

You expect an answer for that from somebody who didn't know the difference between the US and Canada regarding processing?

jpv · 05-29-2003, 04:59 PM

Cory, can you answer Kimmy's question?

-------
"Where is ACPay settling their transactions? Are they using a US merchant account? A European one? One somewhere else? They have them all over the world and will be properly acquiring within the regions for the merchants in those regions and will be breaking them down on a region by region basis when they settle?

Because if not, registration fee or not, it seems to me that they would still be in violation of the cross border acquisition policies and would be in danger of having Visa compliance shut them down."
-------

I currently use AC Pay. The fee is no big deal but I might be worried about this issue Kimmy brought up. I am not sure how any of this works so when Kimmy questions anything regarding VISA compliances I listen.

p00p · 05-29-2003, 05:19 PM

Canada SUCKS!

Kimmykim · 05-29-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AC Cory
[B]The $750 goes to the bank; the $350 is to ensure webmaster seriousness.

We have processors all over the world including the US and are fully compliant. We would never risk AC with AC Pay; I assure you of that.

Boy, here we go again, since now I am even more confused.

Have you been settling US transactions for ACPay clients without registering them in the US? That seems to be what you are implying and I just don't see how that could be possible.

I could understand if you are setting outside the US and therefore didn't feel the need to be compliant with the US, so are you now adding to your portfolio the option of US settlement for US clients?

If so, then I am not understanding how you can 'waive' the $750 fee for site owners that have already paid it elsewhere, since it's my understanding that EACH processor has to collect and remit to their own banks, regardless of other processors the client may be registered with previously. So will your US clients be properly registered with Visa if they do not remit the fee to you?

I'm trying to get my head around all this so I can have a clear and proper understanding of what is going on here and while I hate to keep after you with questions, I do want to understand how this process is working.

The other issue at stake here for site owners is the fact that they are not allowed to acquire in multiple regions for the same web site. So if they are using Ibill for a primary, for instance, and ACPay for backup, do you guarantee that they are being settled in the US, and do you accept the liability of potential Visa sanctions on these clients if it were to turn out that they were in violation of a basic tenet of Visa's, and were to incur any financial or punitive damage from Visa's actions as a result of their improper acquisition and settlement of payments to their sites?

Masturbationman · 05-29-2003, 06:16 PM

See what happens when you try to cut conners!! That is why there will only be a few good companies standing!!

masturbaiton man

OY · 05-29-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryfan2000
I am citizen of Canada and Taiwan. If I have presence in both countries but I mainly stay in Canada, will I be able to process from Visa asian region and get paid to my Canada bank??

OUEEEE!!!!!

SARS!!!!

Va2k · 05-29-2003, 06:27 PM

Yea screw ACPAY in the goats ass, When I signed up they promised there would be no fee's and now this shit, Now after going with epoch/ccbill/ibill I WILL HAVE TO PAY acpay MORE MONEY? NO farking way!! lawyer stated to me do nothing till they steal the Rebills so its a wait and see game, as I don't use them for my main cc *shrugs*

Wonder what Glo-bill is going to do, only thing sucks is I dont use them for primary anymore so will prolly loose a few grand in re-bills, should of just said screw it and paid the 750.00 fee's upfront with ccbill when this first started, so guess its really my fault but I wont go down without a fight lol

TOM

Freakster · 05-29-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AC Cory

As far as Canadians are concerned, our Merchant division has confirmed that he is correct. For now, it is appearing that we will not be able to process them.

soooooooooooo.... you sent me a 750$ bill when you can't even process for me? that's what I understand? How about you gfy?

You clearly have no clue of what you're doing.

I really though AC was a respectable company... big mistake.

nevermind · 05-29-2003, 06:59 PM

This is really interesting. I wonder if he will answer Kimmy's specific questions.

On the one hand, they're claiming total Visa compliance. They just made a "mistake" marketing to "non-serious" webmasters --- whom they lied to about the fees.

Yet, even if webmasters pay the fees, there's no specific answers assuring webmasters that they won't experience problems with Visa.

Hmmmmmm ....

This is getting to the point that webmasters will have to call the acquiring bank for references and information to see which end is up. Assuming, of course, that the processor will tell you which bank it is ... LOL

freeadultcontent · 05-29-2003, 07:00 PM

Its Visa, rules may change per hour.

Kimmykim · 05-29-2003, 07:02 PM

I am asking them the same specific questions I would ask ANY processor who chose an alternate route to the one that Visa US asked for last fall. If Globill were to announce their fee structure, I would question them as well, since the situation is very similar.

I don't care what kind of business you are in, if you cannot accept payment, then you have no business. My clients are in the business of getting paid for their work, and for those that I advise, especially those who take my advice, I like to be very certain of my suggestions.

lola · 05-29-2003, 07:55 PM

I work for Pro Defence Billing. If you are looking for a third party biller, Here's some good news.

Set up fees $0
Reserve: 7.5%
Processing Fees: 10%
Visa Fees: $0

I can arrange discounts.
Contact me on [email protected]

Or sign up today at www.prodefencebilling.com

p00p · 05-29-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lola
I work for Pro Defence Billing. If you are looking for a third party biller, Here's some good news.

Set up fees $0
Reserve: 7.5%
Processing Fees: 10%
Visa Fees: $0

I can arrange discounts.
Contact me on [email protected]

Or sign up today at www.prodefencebilling.com

ACPay was "good news" when I went to them many months ago. How can prodefencebilling.com get away without complying with Visa regs?

Kimmykim · 05-29-2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p

ACPay was "good news" when I went to them many months ago. How can prodefencebilling.com get away without complying with Visa regs?

Wow, I love how she came back and answered you after her drive by spam...

Anthony_A · 05-30-2003, 01:23 AM

I got my questions answered. I think.

Why in GOD'S name would anyone do processing with ACPAYS when they don't even know Visa Regs for the United States and Canada?

the indigo · 05-30-2003, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AC Cory
[B]The fact of the matter is, this company made a major mistake. Did we make a mistake in our dealings with Visa? No. We made a marketing mistake which in turn created a mess. By not charging, we attracted webmasters whose sole interest was to avoid the Visa fees; hence, we attracted a sector of webmasters who weren?t serious.

This is really fucking sad. You are trying to put the responsability on the webmasters who chose the alternative option instead of going through the incorporation headache??

...then you call them not serious? WTF? You lied to them. You said everything will be fine with ACPay. Why the fuck would a serious webmaster incorporate in US and pay more tax if he can use ACPay without all the headaches? He's still a serious webmaster, as serious as the other one who prefered the first option.

Point is, you lied. Stand up like a man now, don't fucking try to put the responsability on serious webmasters. (Anyone who start a paysite is serious, it takes time, work, content, feeds, designs , hosting and marketing efforts)

Quote:

The $350 is intended to create an atmosphere that allows us to process for serious webmasters. In this industry, paysites in general are not for people who are not serious; that is what affiliate programs and avs sites serve as. Most of you have rambled on and on about this charge yet we haven?t accepted a check from anyone of you guys

. If you have a decent idea of what is going on, you won?t be charged. This issue is a non-issue until it is applied, in my opinion.

Completely stupid. I used AC Pay at first and I'm a dead serious webmaster that would sue your ass if I had more money in your irresponsable system.

Quote:

To further on with my opinion, I would like to explain to you in the most straightforward manner I know how what many non-serious webmasters do: they waste time, effort, energy and play keyboard warriors. AC Pay is focused on dealing with webmasters that understand the dynamics of running a vast and profitable business.

Quote:

As far as Canadians are concerned, our Merchant division has confirmed that he is correct. For now, it is appearing that we will not be able to process them.

GREAT! All rebills are lost and you keep asking for $750 on top of that.

You lied, took our money and cheated many webmasters simply because you did not take your responsabilities.

nevermind · 05-30-2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lola
I work for Pro Defence Billing. If you are looking for a third party biller, Here's some good news.

Set up fees $0
Reserve: 7.5%
Processing Fees: 10%
Visa Fees: $0

Like anyone can take this seriously. LOL.

This is the last thing we need. Another fly-by-night processor with bullshit promises that will probably screw webmasters or go under in six months.

seven · 05-30-2003, 06:26 AM

I don't think small webmasters joining them cos there was no VISA fees involved but for god's sakes they don't even provide hit stats keeping you in total darkness about how you are converting. No comprehensive admin stats. No ACH and VISA / Mastercard processing only not even Discover card. Basically they are no CCBill, iBill, epoch or GloBill. I would use them only as a secondary processor. Don't think they are going to be left with too many webmasters now..

Rip · 05-30-2003, 08:56 AM

Hmmm,

maybe I did not really read the email correctly at first... the fees described say nothing about registering with visa, filling out forms etc etc rather it looks like a fee to the processor

does it or doesn't it?

SunTzu · 05-30-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

If so, then I am not understanding how you can 'waive' the $750 fee for site owners that have already paid it elsewhere, since it's my understanding that EACH processor has to collect and remit to their own banks, regardless of other processors the client may be registered with previously. So will your US clients be properly registered with Visa if they do not remit the fee to you?

------

The other issue at stake here for site owners is the fact that they are not allowed to acquire in multiple regions for the same web site. So if they are using Ibill for a primary, for instance, and ACPay for backup, do you guarantee that they are being settled in the US, and do you accept the liability of potential Visa sanctions on these clients if it were to turn out that they were in violation of a basic tenet of Visa's, and were to incur any financial or punitive damage from Visa's actions as a result of their improper acquisition and settlement of payments to their sites?

Cory - I've asked similar questions that Kimmy brought up here. I think these are the most important issues that you still need to address. It's more about the security of doing business with you than the $750. charge.

You mentioned being a straightforward and direct guy. Can you use some of that to answer these questions?

AC Cory · 05-30-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

You mentioned being a straightforward and direct guy. Can you use some of that to answer these questions?

Yep, by day's end.

lawked · 05-30-2003, 01:11 PM

How about a confirmation as to where the payment was received. Perhaps your bank can issue a statement that they received the money in full (750).

To me it sounds like, sign up 10,000 webmasters... Ask for 350
to internationals and 750 to US. Quick way to make money.

ACPay Mac · 05-30-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Boy, here we go again, since now I am even more confused.

Have you been settling US transactions for ACPay clients without registering them in the US? That seems to be what you are implying and I just don't see how that could be possible.

I could understand if you are setting outside the US and therefore didn't feel the need to be compliant with the US, so are you now adding to your portfolio the option of US settlement for US clients?

If so, then I am not understanding how you can 'waive' the $750 fee for site owners that have already paid it elsewhere, since it's my understanding that EACH processor has to collect and remit to their own banks, regardless of other processors the client may be registered with previously. So will your US clients be properly registered with Visa if they do not remit the fee to you?

I'm trying to get my head around all this so I can have a clear and proper understanding of what is going on here and while I hate to keep after you with questions, I do want to understand how this process is working.

The other issue at stake here for site owners is the fact that they are not allowed to acquire in multiple regions for the same web site. So if they are using Ibill for a primary, for instance, and ACPay for backup, do you guarantee that they are being settled in the US, and do you accept the liability of potential Visa sanctions on these clients if it were to turn out that they were in violation of a basic tenet of Visa's, and were to incur any financial or punitive damage from Visa's actions as a result of their improper acquisition and settlement of payments to their sites?

Prior to two weeks ago, and I remember that day vividly, AC Pay was not an IPSP. We got word on rather short notice from our processors (through our UK office) that it would fall under the EU region IPSP rules effective immediately. We appealed that short notice and got a reprieve to work out the logistics. We have a ramp up period to get everyone into compliance. I don?t have a firm date, but we are working on this around the clock.

We have two companies for AC Pay, one that is fully operational in the UK and one that is fully operational in the US. Originally we were going to use the US entity, with its several accounts for a full blown IPSP under a different name. In light of the exigency of the circumstances we are moving the US clients into the US region as quickly as possible. The registration process is beginning in earnest.

The fee waiver issue was a bit premature and we are looking into it. Because it is entirely probable that our processors here in the US might have registration information on record, there was a possibility that we could get the fee waived. This is still in the negotiation stages and may not happen. To help with the impact of all this, we are going to work out a volume requirement and pay back the fees based on a formula.

Because we are traveling rapidly down the path of IPSP compliance, the issue you raise re: Visa sanctions is obviated.

p00p · 05-30-2003, 04:02 PM

what about your Canadian customers?

Indy the real one · 05-30-2003, 04:38 PM

Just change for another processor...

grampatex · 05-30-2003, 04:53 PM

Wow, these guys are in trouble. They are playing catch up 6 months after the regulations went into effect. It doesn't work that way! Good night WSB, AC Pay, Glo-Bill, Verotel...

seven · 05-30-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grampatex
Good night WSB, AC Pay, Glo-Bill, Verotel...

And goodnight grampatex, sweet dreams

grampatex · 05-30-2003, 05:26 PM

always sweet dreams seven...

Kimmykim · 05-30-2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ACPay Mac
Prior to two weeks ago, and I remember that day vividly, AC Pay was not an IPSP.

We have two companies for AC Pay, one that is fully operational in the UK and one that is fully operational in the US.

The fee waiver issue was a bit premature and we are looking into it. Because it is entirely probable that our processors here in the US might have registration information on record, there was a possibility that we could get the fee waived. This is still in the negotiation stages and may not happen.

Because we are traveling rapidly down the path of IPSP compliance, the issue you raise re: Visa sanctions is obviated.

Hi Mac

It's nice to see you guys posting facts, and addressing the issues that have come to light.

I am not sure how your management team thought to process cards as an aggregator without being a proper IPSP, but that's neither here nor there at this time.

I also find some of the premature announcements you've made to be a bit disconcerting -- including the one above regarding the fees -- this would mean in essence that Visa was allowing 1 IPSP to waive fees if others had collected them for clients, but make no provision for the fully compliant from the beginning IPSPs to gain any rebate for their clients or to stop collecting the fees. Not something I see as likely, but perhaps Martin likes you guys better than anyone else ;)

And while I understand your journey, until you've reached the destination nothing is obviated, it is still a tremendously volatile and very important point to site owners.

I trust you will keep us posted on the progress of your endeavours so that webmaster community can evaluate the situatino with the correct information at hand.

nevermind · 05-30-2003, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ACPay Mac

The fee waiver issue was a bit premature and we are looking into it. Because it is entirely probable that our processors here in the US might have registration information on record, there was a possibility that we could get the fee waived. This is still in the negotiation stages and may not happen.

Unbelievable. Yet another flip flop on fees.

Maybe you guys should do some research before you tell webmasters one thing, and then change it --- again.

This is ridiculous.

Shoplifter · 06-02-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p
what about your Canadian customers?

Bumpo

XYCash · 06-02-2003, 05:48 PM

I still don't get why people can't see the proverbial writing on the wall for third party processors...apply for your own merchant account and say goodbye to these hassles. Netbilling is a good start.

-joe

wildporno · 06-02-2003, 06:12 PM

netbilling is looking at $50,000 per month for MINIMUM !
don't think too many people here push $600,000/year

slavdogg · 06-02-2003, 06:17 PM

SunTzu, hey bro
you still in stealth mode ??

drop me an email sometimes

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildporno
netbilling is looking at $50,000 per month for MINIMUM !
don't think too many people here push $600,000/year

I thought that was only for accounts outside of the U.S., primarily Canada, but I could be wrong.

XYCash · 06-02-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildporno
netbilling is looking at $50,000 per month for MINIMUM !
don't think too many people here push $600,000/year

Netbilling gives you a front end to your merchant account, but they can point you towards a company that can provide the merchant account. We've been processing with them since October. Yes we do go beyond the $600,000 minimum you quoted, but we just recommended a friend to them who processes probably about $1000.00 a month and the account was set up very quickly. I have never heard of this minimum you are quoting...where are you getting this from?

-joe

the indigo · 06-02-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XYCash

Netbilling gives you a front end to your merchant account, but they can point you towards a company that can provide the merchant account. We've been processing with them since October. Yes we do go beyond the $600,000 minimum you quoted, but we just recommended a friend to them who processes probably about $1000.00 a month and the account was set up very quickly. I have never heard of this minimum you are quoting...where are you getting this from?

-joe

Where did you get your merchant from? Are they US based or EU based?

Elephant_Gut · 06-02-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

but perhaps Martin likes you guys better than anyone else ;)

Who is Martin? Some kind of important playa?

And how can we get him to be nice to me too?

XYCash · 06-02-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by the indigo

Where did you get your merchant from? Are they US based or EU based?

US based through CardService.

-joe

05-29-2003, 05:19 PM	#104
p00p Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: CanaDUH Posts: 5,125	Canada SUCKS! __________________ ICQ: 316365783 <a href="http://www.hostultra.com/~p00p" target="_blank">TEST</a>

05-29-2003, 06:27 PM	#108
Va2k I’m still alive barley. Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Va Posts: 10,060	Yea screw ACPAY in the goats ass, When I signed up they promised there would be no fee's and now this shit, Now after going with epoch/ccbill/ibill I WILL HAVE TO PAY acpay MORE MONEY? NO farking way!! lawyer stated to me do nothing till they steal the Rebills so its a wait and see game, as I don't use them for my main cc shrugs Wonder what Glo-bill is going to do, only thing sucks is I dont use them for primary anymore so will prolly loose a few grand in re-bills, should of just said screw it and paid the 750.00 fee's upfront with ccbill when this first started, so guess its really my fault but I wont go down without a fight lol TOM __________________

05-29-2003, 06:59 PM	#110
nevermind Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 276	This is really interesting. I wonder if he will answer Kimmy's specific questions. On the one hand, they're claiming total Visa compliance. They just made a "mistake" marketing to "non-serious" webmasters --- whom they lied to about the fees. Yet, even if webmasters pay the fees, there's no specific answers assuring webmasters that they won't experience problems with Visa. Hmmmmmm .... This is getting to the point that webmasters will have to call the acquiring bank for references and information to see which end is up. Assuming, of course, that the processor will tell you which bank it is ... LOL Last edited by nevermind; 05-29-2003 at 07:05 PM..

05-29-2003, 07:00 PM	#111
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	Its Visa, rules may change per hour. __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites

05-30-2003, 01:23 AM	#116
Anthony_A Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,219	I got my questions answered. I think. Why in GOD'S name would anyone do processing with ACPAYS when they don't even know Visa Regs for the United States and Canada? __________________ PAYBUYNET.COM Need Processing? Email me tony at paybuynet dot com ICQ 21239908

05-29-2003, 04:50 PM	#101
jerryfan2000 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 79	I am citizen of Canada and Taiwan. If I have presence in both countries but I mainly stay in Canada, will I be able to process from Visa asian region and get paid to my Canada bank??

05-29-2003, 04:59 PM	#103
jpv Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 301	Cory, can you answer Kimmy's question? ------- "Where is ACPay settling their transactions? Are they using a US merchant account? A European one? One somewhere else? They have them all over the world and will be properly acquiring within the regions for the merchants in those regions and will be breaking them down on a region by region basis when they settle? Because if not, registration fee or not, it seems to me that they would still be in violation of the cross border acquisition policies and would be in danger of having Visa compliance shut them down." ------- I currently use AC Pay. The fee is no big deal but I might be worried about this issue Kimmy brought up. I am not sure how any of this works so when Kimmy questions anything regarding VISA compliances I listen.

05-29-2003, 06:16 PM	#106
Masturbationman Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Florida Posts: 283	See what happens when you try to cut conners!! That is why there will only be a few good companies standing!! masturbaiton man

05-29-2003, 07:02 PM	#112
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	I am asking them the same specific questions I would ask ANY processor who chose an alternate route to the one that Visa US asked for last fall. If Globill were to announce their fee structure, I would question them as well, since the situation is very similar. I don't care what kind of business you are in, if you cannot accept payment, then you have no business. My clients are in the business of getting paid for their work, and for those that I advise, especially those who take my advice, I like to be very certain of my suggestions.

05-29-2003, 07:55 PM	#113
lola Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: bris aust Posts: 6	I work for Pro Defence Billing. If you are looking for a third party biller, Here's some good news. Set up fees $0 Reserve: 7.5% Processing Fees: 10% Visa Fees: $0 I can arrange discounts. Contact me on [email protected] Or sign up today at www.prodefencebilling.com

05-30-2003, 06:26 AM	#119
seven Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LaLa Land Posts: 2,697	I don't think small webmasters joining them cos there was no VISA fees involved but for god's sakes they don't even provide hit stats keeping you in total darkness about how you are converting. No comprehensive admin stats. No ACH and VISA / Mastercard processing only not even Discover card. Basically they are no CCBill, iBill, epoch or GloBill. I would use them only as a secondary processor. Don't think they are going to be left with too many webmasters now.. __________________ Toy Rev Rouge Web Design

05-30-2003, 08:56 AM	#120
Rip Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: somewheres wet Posts: 1,456	Hmmm, maybe I did not really read the email correctly at first... the fees described say nothing about registering with visa, filling out forms etc etc rather it looks like a fee to the processor does it or doesn't it? __________________ ...

05-30-2003, 01:11 PM	#123
lawked Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 354	How about a confirmation as to where the payment was received. Perhaps your bank can issue a statement that they received the money in full (750). To me it sounds like, sign up 10,000 webmasters... Ask for 350 to internationals and 750 to US. Quick way to make money.

05-30-2003, 04:02 PM	#125
p00p Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: CanaDUH Posts: 5,125	what about your Canadian customers? __________________ ICQ: 316365783 <a href="http://www.hostultra.com/~p00p" target="_blank">TEST</a>

05-30-2003, 04:38 PM	#126
Indy the real one Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 130	Just change for another processor... __________________ Nothing 2 sale...

05-30-2003, 04:53 PM	#127
grampatex Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 21	Wow, these guys are in trouble. They are playing catch up 6 months after the regulations went into effect. It doesn't work that way! Good night WSB, AC Pay, Glo-Bill, Verotel... __________________ grampatex

05-30-2003, 05:26 PM	#129
grampatex Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 21	always sweet dreams seven... __________________ grampatex

06-02-2003, 05:48 PM	#133
XYCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: here and there Posts: 582	I still don't get why people can't see the proverbial writing on the wall for third party processors...apply for your own merchant account and say goodbye to these hassles. Netbilling is a good start. -joe __________________ XYCash Gay Affiliate Programs - Making Money For Webmasters Since 1999 - click here to sign up Last edited by XYCash; 06-02-2003 at 06:12 PM..

06-02-2003, 06:12 PM	#134
wildporno Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 108	netbilling is looking at $50,000 per month for MINIMUM ! don't think too many people here push $600,000/year

06-02-2003, 06:17 PM	#135
slavdogg Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 3,570	SunTzu, hey bro you still in stealth mode ?? drop me an email sometimes __________________ Adult Traffic for Sale