Kimmykim

You love me? You really really love me?

;-}}}}

jcnlv

That is the problem with 3rd party processing. You *do* all sink or swim together. 3rd party depends on the good guys offsetting the bad. Not really fair to the good guys, and a blessing for the bad guys.

If you are a webmaster that cares about your site, provide your members what you promise and is willing to actually pay some attention to who is joining your sites, you should look into getting your own merchant account.

With quality anti-fraud tools such as are available at Netbilling, and a little attentiveness, you can stay under 1%. We have done it for years with our paysites.

If you monitor new sales as they come in and VOID the unverifiable or highly suspicious transactions before you close your batches they will not appear as credits or refunds - and therefore not affect your 1%.

Our business has different problems than Amazon does. Amazon delivers a product to a physical address. We need to take more precautions when accepting credit card transactions. We need to remove as much of the anonymity from our customers as we can.

If we are not willing to do that, we will have to accept the consequences.

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Probono

You might not have read the new MC rules. If you are a good webmaster and do the right thing and have a month where you do MC refunds and those refunds and CB's together are greater than 1% of your sales you are out of business at MC sole discretion. So even if you are diligent you are at the mercy of MC.

We have our own merchant account and have had it for years, we never even approach 1/2% in CB but that is because we monitor and refund suspect fraudulent transactions. In this new model that is worse than rolling the dice since not all frauds will turn into chargebacks.

Kimmykim

Interestingly enough, the IPSPs have a solution that makes watching trans before batching obsolete... it's called scrubbing and it's based on predictable histories and patterns.

I know when I was at CCBill our scrub accounted for nowhere near what bank declines accounted for in the system.

But um, if you've got millions of compromised Mastercards on the loose that they will allow transactions on since they apparently forgot to tell the issuing banks to issue new cards, AND they hold the merchants responsible for taking these transactions when the BANKS should know they are no good, that is tantamount to deceit in its worst form.

bikinihouse

I think all of us can finally say, EPOCH RULES!

GO EPOCH/PAYCOM

titmowse

sweet!

you're not the only ones who think that visa/mc might just be big fat bullies

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models

the strategy paycom is using of filing suit against MC is the smartest thing i've seen yet, and i will bet MC will settle favorably with paycom.

here's why:

1. it is impossible for adult online to stay under 1% combined for any length of time. MC KNOWS this, and is using penalties to generate income---pure and simple. even if you do EVERYTHING RIGHT you still cannot stay under 1% combined because of human nature---MANY of our buyers feel guilty about buying porn (that's why most of them buy it online and don't walk into a store) this simple psychology makes adult purchases online naturally suseptible to the chargeback reason of "fraud"---many wimpy guys don't like to admit to their wives that they like to buy porn online. buying a membership to a porn site is not the same as buying a computer online---the pyschology of the purchase is COMPLETELY different---many guys buy with a guilty conscience, and their ego (or their wife's ego) forces the chargeback.

and to add another factor, for many, the adult purchase is an impulse type, masturbatory purchase. shoot the load, the need is gone, chargeback the sale---NO OTHER ONLINE PURCHASE compares to this short-lived need. you don't buy a digital camera online to jackoff. you buy a subscription to wifeysworld.com, et al, to jackoff. MC knows this and setups 3rd party billers for the fall deliberately.

it's extortion pure and simple, and mafia style.

2. MC will have to produce EVIDENCE of loss to substantiate the need to recoup their "loss" through the use of penalties---i believe they cannot produce this evidence.

3. as soon as MC settles it should be time to take on VISA.

gotta give Epoch credit for having balls.

NETbilling

jcnlv,

Thanks for the kind words about us.

models,

Suing Mastercard to get your fine $$$ back is one thing. Suing them to change THIER rules is another. It will surely take alot of time and $$$. Many Adult merchants do stay under 1% and that will be the catch in the defenses favor.


Paycom,

Good luck with the suit. All of the billing companies should support you in your cause, just as we supported WSB when they sued Visa.

Mitch

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Mitch Farber
CEO - NETbilling, Inc.
Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456
Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

Snake Doctor

Go get em Epoch

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Living For Today

Good luck with it

SleazyDream

you gota admit - epoch has balls...

a lot of good points came up here - on both sides.

I'm thinking that mastercard doesn't want to release the list of fraudlent cards mostly because several of epoch's clients are the very same people responsible for using fraud credit cards. That's not saying Epoch would ever use that bad card list for anything other than a scrub list - but knowing that Epoch has clients that would use that list with numberous other processing companies to commit fraud if they got their hands on the list it's probally just too risky for mastercard to let that list out.
Mastercard could easily set up some sort of central checking system though that would allow merchants like epoch to verify if a card is a stolen card quite easily without releasing the list.

just my 2 cent perspective on that........

as for things like epoch hosting the webpage - personally I think this is a good idea. At least there can be some controll as to what happens at the point of sale if this becomes a requriement.

The cross selling issue is a huge point to consider. 99.9999% of all cross sales I would wager are just tricking the consumer. Not good business and risky to continue with condisering the current climate on chargeback ratios. Cross sales are not about a quality product that someone wants to buy- they are about greed. I'd wager that the majority of sites sold in cross sales don't even have any real content in them - they'd mostly full of upsell feeds. This could be totally controlled again by having a 3rd party processer host the join page. Any cross sales on a 3rd party processor controlled join page would be legitimate or at least a lot closer to being legitimate.

reality is - what's it worth? economics says it worth whatever you can get for it. - but then the question of fraud or tricking the consumer comes in. Well you can rent a porn movie for $5-$10. payperview in hotels go as high as $20 a movie. a good porn site (without crappy feeds) can have 100+ real movies to download.... for a month's membership.. $40 is fair for that - a bargain. what isn't fair is leading a person to believe they are goign pay $4 - recurrng at $39 and then having them hit with a $120 bill since there was hard to find boxes pre-checked for a cross sell on something the consumer didn't want in the first place.

so what's it all mean? Mastercard needs to define some CLEAR and DECISIVE rules. The problem is there hasn't been anything concrete. This industry moves faster than rules can be imposed on it and that very fact is in the end gona make mastercard want to simply bail ship. Being a monolopy is actually in Epoch's FAVOR though since as a monolopy mastercard in the end may be legally FORCED to deal with porn since there is no other option.

Personally I hope Epoch wins and gets some clarity on what it can and can't do. Without that clarity anyone who gives them shit for crossselling and the like is basically full of crap since they havn't been told (to my knowledge) not to do any of that stuff.



now I'm going to say something again here - let this sink in.
In the END, I think that Mastercard being a monolopy is actually in Epoch's FAVOR though since as a monolopy mastercard in the end may be legally FORCED to deal with porn since there is no other viable option even if they want to bail out of porn and high risk web transactions totally.

Good luck Epoch.

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DyannaDoes

I might as well say hello.

John

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hershie

Here is a Fortune magazine article on the recent class-action suit against Mastercard over debit cards and "honor all cards" rule:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/artic...447339,00.html

psyko514

Here's my opinion on Visa/MC not cancelling those stolen card numbers.
It cannot be proven that the card numbers are in anyone's possesion or that someone intends to use them maliciously/fraudulently.
The idea of cancelling several million credit cards is insane. That means several million credit card holders would be severly inconvienced. They have to wait a few days for a new card. They have to advise online/telephone banking of the new number. Any pre-authorized payments have to be advised of the new number. This is a huge headache for customers, which translates to a huge headache for the companies. Not to mention the manpower and cash required to cancel and reissue several million card numbers.

Each issuer is aware of their compromised cards, and each cardholder who's account was compromised was advised and offered the oppurtunity to cancel their cards. Many did. And those who didn't, their accounts are being heavily monitored. Any fraud will be tracked and traced. If the card was used online, Visa/MC would go so far as to obtain the IP address from the IPSP and subpoena the ISP in order to determine who had the CC# and how it was obtained, in hopes of catching the hacker.

As to why they don't give Epoch the list? Amongst other reasons, what if one of these cardholders legitimately wants to sign up for something processed by Epoch? They'll be scrubbed.

Also, the majority of stolen cards are not used to purchase online porn memberships.

One last thing to keep in mind: Millions of credit card numbers does not equal millions of active card numbers.

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Kimmykim

Um, love, MC nor Visa define anything but to their issuers and acquirers. SHOWING the rules as a bank can get you in trouble.

There won't be any clear rules after this suit settles either, just a realization on MC's part that if they push too hard, we, as an industry, will come back at them.

Let's all hold our breath and see if we don't get the 4 plaintiffs needed for a class action. I have a feeling we wont be holding it long enough to suffocate.

psyko514

What's the criteria for being a plaintiff? Being a high-risk merchant account holder accepting MC?

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Kimmykim

If B of A called me or mailed me or sent carrier pigeons to let me know that my cards had been compromised but they were sending me new ones overnight I'd be delighted. Not pissed.

But then again what it would cost them to do that would fuck them for the quarter and their public profits, not to mention the backlash.

Get it?

Kimmykim

Um, I'm not a lawyer, but as I read it, you'd have to have had your business, or be having your business, significantly impacted by the rules that you will never see.

DyannaDoes

Some things never change . . .
Good to see you Kim. Have you been to bed yet?

psyko - we're all plaintiffs as you know. I've actually been personally named in this suit once . . . but it wasn't a fight I had the resources to take on a few years ago.


Way to go Epoch.

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psyko514

Of course I get it: "Not to mention the manpower and cash required to cancel and reissue several million card numbers."

Anyways, you may be delighted, but others would be pissed. I've had customers give me shit after they lost their card because I couldn't get them a new one the next day. If only I could tell them "Yes, I could get a card sent by courrier to you tomorrow, but you're really not worth it to us.".

Like I said, those whose accounts were compromised were advised and given the opportunity to cancel them. We left the decision to them. Some opted to cancel, others didn't.

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DyannaDoes

x

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the indigo

Why did they do that?

Maybe because they were sick of this industry and are simply trying to drop us off... and find different ways to do it.

I mean, there's no reason for Mastercard to do that. You don't screw your good clients. Is the adult industry a good client... this is the question.

Kimmykim

Hello cardholder, our db has been compromised, your number isn't safe.
Would you like a new number and 5 days without your card or would you rather someone used your number?

So does your bank where you do CS issue MC or only Visa? That makes a big difference in how you look at it, since Visa HATES MC.

Kimmykim

No they werent, did you get that part?

My edit -- you do Visa CSR for a bank in Canada, we are talking about Mastercard.

Kimmykim

X

NETbilling

A few years ago, there was a bank (Charter Pacific) that was selling bad card databases (stolen and chargedd back cards). One guy bought it and ran millions in bogus transactions. Not a good thing.

For them to re-issue millions of cards, it would cost about $20 a piece from what I have read. Not chump change and very damaging to the brand itself.

Good night.

Mitch

__________________


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CEO - NETbilling, Inc.
Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456
Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

psyko514

It wasn't the issuers db that was compromised. And cardholders were advised that they were backed by the zero-liability policy in case of misuse of their cards.

Out of approx 60k compromised numbers at my bank alone, not one has been used fraudulently.

You're right. I should have made it clear that I was talking specifically for Visa-Issuing Canadian banks.
I was unaware that Mastercard banks didn't advise their customers that their numbers were compromised. I find that extremely shocking and appaling. Are we talking about all Mastercard issuing banks or only certain banks?

Anyways, like we've agreed, mostly it comes down to one thing: money. It's not worth the cost and potential loss in revenue from unhappy customers to either Visa or MC.

__________________

BJ

god forbid a processor admits to having their database hacked/sold

DyannaDoes

I've always enjoyed your sig lines, Kim

__________________
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cash69

who's the one that says using stolen credit cards is illegal? Shouldn't they be the one's stepping up investigating every accusation of a stolen credit card? if visa or mastercard wants money from you for people using stolen credit cards.. i think you should put the blaim on the law for not enforcing their shit. i thought that it was a felony...

80% claim their credit card was stolen to join a porn site.. im sure that this could be traced very easily... considering they have probably signed up to a few other porn sites before.. possibly said the same thing and got out of that bill to... maybe try something like flagging just their credit card as high risk.. instead of the whole adult industry. there is nothing wrong with it.. its just the few people that have gotten out of a few bills.. making felony accusations.. and know they can keep doing it.. so why pay?

ajthegreat

Finally a processor with some balls.

cash69

what if.. when some one did a chargeback.. claimed fraud.. make it a HUGE deal... sound all serious on the phone... tell them to hold on a second while you transfer them to the felony complaint department. Sound all serious.. and tell them you will send them a mail for felony claims and they need to fill it out and send it back immediatly. Tell them the fbi will be contacted.. and this and that.. all it takes is an email to their [email protected].. if it truly is a stolen credit card.. there's nothing to hide.. it would only help. something needs to make it harder to chage back... besides "ok your credit card was charged back.. have a good day.. bye"

Tipsy

Anybody else have trouble finding the letters in amongst the dots?

cash69

i did

Validus

I am on page 7. Will comment after I am done in a greater extend.

Sugar~Pot

WAY TO GO Epoch/Paycom!!!!

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nevermind

That's great Chris ... but you're also assuming that that Epoch and the industry as a whole is squeaky clean here? And that Epoch will be viewed as such?

What other industry systemically tries to force a rebill down the consumer's throat before they even see the product? What other industry systemically makes it a hassle for the consumer to cancel?

For better or for worse, Epoch has been a part of that. With what is, for all practical purposes, a forced rebill system --- can Mastercard be totally blamed for insisting that "refunds" be counted as chargebacks?

I sincerely doubt this would be happening if the industry standard was the more consumer friendly non-recurring billing option --- which very few sites use.

Joining a porn site is supposed to be fun. Having to worry about cancelling before you even know if the site is any good takes all the fun out of it.

Let's be honest. Rebills are designed to take advantage of the customers' forgetting to cancel and squeeze every possible dollar out of them --- whether they like the product or not. And now Mastercard is saying no more to the "refunds" that are supposed to cover your ass with these questionable billing tactics.

To paint the adult industry as the "victim" in this scenario is laughable.

Chris Mallick

Thanks Mitch.

I am curious: Do you think that your client?s will be able to stay under 1% chargebacks combined with credits? What about the 15 chargeback trigger?

I am not baiting you here, but I just don?t see how MC or anyone can claim that as a reasonable and achievable goal. Obviously our lawsuit tells our story better than I could here, but I agree with model that it is a set up, pure and simple.

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tony286

Here is a stupid question, since Visa is the biggest and that seems to be working. What happens if we all just stop taking mastercard? I think Sams Club only takes Visa, why cant we?

nevermind

According to Paycom's filing, Mastercard accounts for 40 percent of their transactions.

So, I'm assuming that means a 40 percent drop in business which, Paycom says, would put them out of business.

Chris Mallick

Sorry...

EPOCH is squeaky clean, as are most IPSP?s. What do you think MC will say? ?They are billing for porn so we have the right to screw them.?

As for rebills, no one forces anyone to do anything. We take tens of thousands of calls a week and more emails from cardholders canceling. Consumers know. This is not a new concept. It is a hell of a lot cleaner and better than subscription news delivery services, like the LA Times for example. I have cancelled my subscription about 10 times over the last year. They keep delivering the paper and sending bills. They call me at 11 PM asking if I want to subscribe. They can?t cancel, stop telemarketing or rebilling ? so I?m screwed. And guess what? If I don?t pay that bill every month, they turn me over to a credit agency and my credit is ruined. Our industry is a 1000-times better than any magazine, newspaper or other ?deliverable? merchant of that ilk.

Granted, there are bad guys in this business, as there are in all businesses. There are those that screw the consumer morning, noon and night. We don?t process for those people.

As for the cross sell talk, this is old news, but one more time: We have been doing this for well over a year. Our chargebacks have decreased (not because of increased volume either). So that is a lame argument. The facts support my position. The reason is because of disclosure. We email everyone upon joining. Consumers know where to go to cancel trials, recurring, to get help if their password does not work, etc?

Paycom / EPOCH and other IPSP?s spend millions every year on providing cardholders with state-of-the-art Call Centers. Ours is open 24x7x365 with toll free numbers to call from around the world answered by professional Customer Service Representatives speaking a total of 21 languages. We do this for the card associations (MC / Visa) rules and to protect their brands and our / your ability to continue accepting the brand. If we were scamming, we would not have a call center, save that money and roll along. We don?t.

I can?t speak for CCBill, but I bet Ron would agree with me that the disclosure is better now, Customer Service is better now, chargebacks are lower now and fraud is lower, except for the stolen databases than at any time in this industry?s history.

As to why MC won?t whack the known stolen card numbers, well the deal there is simple: Money. It is estimated by our professional consultants (with a combined 100 years working for and with the card associations) that the cost to MC alone is well over $1 Billion to reissue the stolen database cards from the DPI hack alone. The Issuing Banks have the lists, they just refuse to list the cards and MC won?t even ask. MC is owned by those same banks, so MC?s owners would probably opt in to of any re-issue program. Why is that? Don?t the care about the cardholders? Sure they do. But the reason again: Money. The money comes from the merchants. We pay the costs of the chargebacks and the good news for MC and their banks is that they KEEP the Interchange and fine us in the process. So there is no financial incentive or penalty for these banks and MC just letting the cards be used. This is the issue that should really tweak webmasters. This means that resellers can get the databases and run the cards on your programs, earn $35 a sign up and off they go, forever. And we keep giving valid auth?s as the card number and the CVC2 are correct and we get full AVS ? no reason to decline or scrub out. Webmasters are screwed, we are screwed, and cardholders are screwed, but not MC. That is where deceptive trade practices come in.

Sorry for the length of this post, but these issues are so complex, serious and maddening that it is hard to be brief.

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tony286

Really 40%, I thought Mastercard wasnt that widely used. Even if there was a drop in business, I think it would go back to the level it was at before. Most people if they have a mastercard they have a Visa.

nevermind

Funny you mention that. I just cancelled a bunch of credit cards I didn't need that either had extra fees or higher interest rates.

Turns out they were all Visa. I only have Mastercard now.

tony286

Then I guess you couldnt shop at Sam's club or my site lol.

sweetums

Ummm....only a fool wouldn't

My hats off to Epoch/Paycom for taking a stand on this issue. Good luck....

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nevermind

First, I'd be more than happy to never join a porn site again. Not only because of the billing hassles, but because of all the spam I got afterward. We all know that CCBill (and probably others) sell those lists.

And I've never had a problem with any retail outlet accepting Mastercard. Period.

brave

EPOCH ROX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so glad I've been using them for my memberships and soon to be using their ePpurchase to support my shopping cart sales...

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easy01

All other might processors should join in this

magicmike

AOl used to do this... 30 day free trial to AOl, enter your CC number...

then you had to call their customer support, give em reasons why you want to cancel your great AOL membership blah blah...

Then their are all those CD clubs etc...

Its been done before, and it'll be done again.

Way to go Epoch!!!

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nevermind

Ah ... the LA Times example. Heard that before. I never had a problem cancelling the LA Times, BTW.

You're selling monthly memberships, yet you automatically bill people for more than that. Even if the LA Times is also doing that --- doesn't make it right.

Sure ... you've got call centers and customer support. But why should the legitimate customer have to even bother with that? Or even bother with an email or cancellation form? It's still wrong ... no matter how you slice it.

It's their money. If they want to rebill let them choose that. Don't bullshit the customer with automatic rebills for their supposed "convenience." It's a crock ... and we all know it.

What bothers me about the adult industry is that --- across the board --- the entire system is anti-consumer. No one wants to take responsibility for it. And, as this thread demonstrates, the attitude of most webmasters is "It's not our fault. It's the customer's fault."

Well ... the old saying in business is that "The Customer is Always Right." This industry ignored that timeless tradition and now it's going to have to pay for it.