MasterCard Sued for Antitrust Violations & Fraud - GoFuckYourself.com

EpochCEO · 05-12-2003, 02:15 PM

May 12, 2003

MasterCard Sued for Antitrust Violations & Fraud

MARINA DEL REY, CA. Paycom Billing Services, Inc., an Internet Payment Service Provider, processing credit card and check transactions for Internet merchants, filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit today in Federal Court in Los Angeles against MasterCard International for antitrust violations, fraud and other issues.

Paycom's suit alleges that MasterCard has established monopolistic rules that allow it unreasonable discretion to dominate Internet merchants, and it has exercised this power to illegally impose fines and penalties in the millions of dollars.

Former Federal Prosecutors for the US Department of Justice, William McD. Miller and Richard P. Crane, Jr. of the Los Angeles law firm Musick, Peeler & Garrett LLP and Dennis M. P. Ehling, filed the lawsuit on behalf of the Plaintiff. Mr. Crane stated, "A United States Federal District Court has already determined that MasterCard is a monopoly. MasterCard's continued unfair dealings and the imposition of baseless fines, penalties and fees on Internet merchants, such as Paycom, simply prove the abusive control that one finds in a monopoly."

Paycom's Chief Executive Officer, Christopher Mallick, commented "We are in compliance with MasterCard's rules as a merchant, yet they fine us millions of dollars. Paycom has been directed to change its entire business structure, indeed to change the way in which E-commerce works, to comply with additional rules from MasterCard; rules that MasterCard cannot or will not articulate or explain." Mallick added, "These rules are unreasonable and demonstrate MasterCard's intent to continue to economically bully Internet merchants. Paycom has a responsibility to our employees and our clients. The intent of this lawsuit is to force MasterCard to treat us and other Internet merchants fairly and to permit us to operate as any other merchant class. This is a business that we built on our ability to accept MasterCard, one of the only currencies available for online shoppers."

The litigation alleges MasterCard violated several Federal and California State laws including violations of Federal and California State anti-trust laws, denial of fair procedures, unfair competition, fraud, breach of contract and breach of implied covenants of good faith and fair dealing, intentional interference with Paycom's contractual relationships, and intentional and negligent interference with Paycom's prospective business advantage, and seeks damages, declaratory and injunctive relief.

Paycom's lawsuit may be found at www.paycom.net/mastercard/lawsuit.pdf
All inquiries should be directed to:
Dennis M. P. Ehling, Esq.
Musick, Peeler & Garrett, LLP
Telephone: 213-629-7600 or by email: [email protected]

EpochCEO · 05-12-2003, 02:16 PM

Paycom / EPOCH Sues MasterCard

Today Paycom / EPOCH sued MasterCard International in Federal Court in Los Angeles. Our suit alleges Anti Trust violations, Fraud and Unfair Trade Practices by MasterCard against Paycom / EPOCH and Internet merchants in the so-called "high-risk" space. The lawsuit may be found at: www.paycom.net/MasterCard/lawsuit.pdf. I suggest reading the entire lawsuit if you have time. If not, pages 21 - 44 tell the story of why we are suing.

We will continue to accept MasterCard during and after this lawsuit.

Paycom / EPOCH made a decision that the only way to ensure the long term ability of our business, that of our clients and that of the other high risk internet merchants to accept MasterCard was to file this lawsuit. We tried everything to avoid this, but MasterCard has simply become too unreasonable to deal with in our marketplace.

There is no simple way to explain this lawsuit. However, in an effort to give you the basics, here are the main issues:

MasterCard has set the chargeback ratio for high-risk Internet merchants at 1%. MasterCard has also said that when a Merchant's credits exceed its chargebacks, it will count credits as chargebacks. However, credits almost always exceed chargebacks, so MasterCard has in effect made a rule that the combined chargeback and credit ratio must be below 1%. If Paycom / EPOCH (or any high risk Internet merchant) goes over the 1% threshold for 2 consecutive months, then MasterCard can impose fines of up to $100 per chargeback and credit plus $100K per month. It has also said that it has the right to continue to impose these fines for at least 12 months even if we are under the 1% ratio during those months.

You can see why this is an impossible situation when you consider, for example, that because of MasterCard's "Zero Liability" policy, we must issue a credit whenever a card holder claims that he or she did not authorize a charge. MasterCard is now penalizing us for following its rules by issuing credits. But, if we refuse to issue credits, MasterCard will punish us anyway since those cardholders will charge back. It is simply an unacceptable situation.

To make this issue even more onerous, MasterCard counts known stolen cards against us in calculating the ratios. For example: DPI was hacked and hackers got 13 million card numbers (about 5 million or so were MasterCards). MasterCard knows which cards were compromised, but has not cancelled those cards nor will it give us a list of the compromised accounts numbers so we can block them in our system. The result is that criminals can buy the card numbers from the hackers, sign up as resellers, run the cards through our system; and MasterCard places the full liability for that fraud on our clients' and our shoulders.

Paycom / EPOCH was also fined late last week approximately $1.5 million for being in the "Excessive Chargeback Program." However, a fine should not have been imposed. MasterCard did not have right to fine us under its rules, and it will not even give us the courtesy of an explanation as to why it imposed the fine. We are not passing those fines to our clients at this time, even though we have the right to do so. Instead we are standing up for the industry and fighting for our collective rights in this litigation.

MasterCard is a monopoly, as a United States Federal District Court has already determined. As such, a monopoly like MasterCard has a duty and an obligation to treat us fairly as a class of merchants. We are going to try and make sure it lives up to that duty. Wal-Mart did. Home Depot will. We know we are not Wal-Mart or Home Depot, but we are entitled to insist on fair treatment just like they are.

We expect a great number of questions so we are staying late tonight to answer as many as we can. The lawsuit speaks for itself, but we know you will want and that you deserve direct answers. Paycom / EPOCH clients are encouraged to email questions as well, indicating your Master Code in the Subject line.

Please email any processing questions to [email protected]. Rest assured, processing will not be interrupted and payments will not be affected.

-- The Team at EPOCH

BVF · 05-12-2003, 02:18 PM

what's this got to do with us?

Wizzo · 05-12-2003, 02:19 PM

Good Stuff and Good Luck!

BVF · 05-12-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BVF
what's this got to do with us?

wow, I read your second post...that's kind of fucked up....

Go get em!

FlyingIguana · 05-12-2003, 02:21 PM

about time someone did this. i take my hat off to you

Kimmykim · 05-12-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BVF
what's this got to do with us?

If you take Mastercard through an IPSP then it has alot to do with you.

WiredGuy · 05-12-2003, 02:24 PM

Best of luck to you, its great to see one of the high risk IPSP taking on the credit card companies directly. I hope for your success and will hopefully lead to lower merchant / processing fees with your success. Let us know on your progress in the case as details emerge, this is definitely a case I would like to follow up on.

WG

FlyingIguana · 05-12-2003, 02:24 PM

it would be great to see other companies join in to fight mastercard and maybe go after visa as well if there's a favourable ruling. visa and mastercard have been ass fucking this industry for years. its time to take the strap on from them and stick it up their ass.

BossHawg · 05-12-2003, 02:25 PM

Kudos to Paycom.

Glad to have you as my primary processor as under 1% on credits and cb's is damn near impossible and seems like an attempt to milk as much money as they can from their merchants.

Good luck on this battle and keep us updated!

robfantasy · 05-12-2003, 02:26 PM

go EPOCH !!

mrbling · 05-12-2003, 02:28 PM

yup,

credits due where its deserved.

paycom rocks here.

nevermind · 05-12-2003, 02:30 PM

Whoah!

I wonder how this will affect their ability to do biz with Mastercard?

Sly_RJ · 05-12-2003, 02:32 PM

And yet another reason I'm looking forward to using Epoch.

Very nice.

Kimmykim · 05-12-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nevermind
Whoah!

I wonder how this will affect their ability to do biz with Mastercard?

It should have no effect on processing, this is a separate matter entirely.

Were Mastercard to do something so foolish as to interfere with that relationship in the midst of a lawsuit, then you would see a whole other round of lawsuits involving some MAJOR damages being filed.

Keep in mind that when Walmart was suing MC (and Visa I think as well), their stores did not stop accepting Mastercard as a method of payment.

FlyingIguana · 05-12-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nevermind
Whoah!

I wonder how this will affect their ability to do biz with Mastercard?

nothing mastercard could do if the courts rule in paycom's favour. if they're a monopoly and they're abusing that power, i could see it being settled out of court. i highly doubt mastercard will want to have the floodgates opened.

PR_Phil · 05-12-2003, 02:34 PM

Good luck Epoch! Kick-em in the nutz!

OY · 05-12-2003, 02:36 PM

Paycom/Epoch has impressed me, standing up for our industry in this way is fantastic.

All the best of luck and good forces be with you!

Probono · 05-12-2003, 02:41 PM

Bravo I am glad you have both the budget and the cajones to do this. Good luck, what you are doing will effect all of us.

gothweb · 05-12-2003, 02:46 PM

I wonder if some of the other major billers would consider joining this lawsuit. Its in everyone's best interest for Epoch to win on this one.

What I am wondering is when someone will take on Visa.

FlyingIguana · 05-12-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb
I wonder if some of the other major billers would consider joining this lawsuit. Its in everyone's best interest for Epoch to win on this one.

What I am wondering is when someone will take on Visa.

i would take on mastercard first. get a good ruling and use that against visa. at least you'll have some good ammunition.

Lensman · 05-12-2003, 02:54 PM

I'm on the conference call right now that's covering the suit.

chupacabra · 05-12-2003, 02:58 PM

talk about taking one for the team... this affects all of us on some level; you go guys, and good luck..!

Mishi · 05-12-2003, 03:01 PM

Bravo EPOCH!

Why · 05-12-2003, 03:03 PM

FUCK MASTERCARD. and visa too. its about time someone stood up to them. specially from this industry. i think any judge in his right mind can see that what mastercard and visa are doing is some scandalous bullshit.

Kick Ass Chat · 05-12-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BVF
what's this got to do with us?

It has Nothing to do with you, it only pertains to people that actually make money

Jizar II · 05-12-2003, 03:15 PM

Wow. good luck

Cindyff · 05-12-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GirlsFreePics

It has Nothing to do with you, it only pertains to people that actually make money

Thats so fucking funny

Go Epoch and let me know if i can help in any way

Cindy xx

NADINEXXX · 05-12-2003, 03:30 PM

CUDOS, CUDOS, CUDOS to you. i am sure the entire adult internet industry is behind you in this endeavor.

Perhaps what will come of this is the partnership that should be.

Tipsy · 05-12-2003, 03:36 PM

Wow - Epoch just jumped up 100 points on my personal scale of billers. Maybe time to try them out for a couple of new projects coming up...

More than that though - fucking good job too. It's about time that somebody had the balls to do this. Mind you when the fines start to potentially exceed the court costs of such an action it's enevitable that somebody will say enough and take this step.

for Epoch for being the 1st!

cherrylula · 05-12-2003, 03:37 PM

Probono · 05-12-2003, 03:37 PM

How about you make this a class action? We have our own merchant account and could only contibute pennies toward the fees but I think the entire industry and others should join this suit?

49thParallel · 05-12-2003, 03:38 PM

Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off.

EscortBiz · 05-12-2003, 03:39 PM

great work guys!

Probono · 05-12-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off.

I can tell you we do none of the above and do not even do recurring billing. I can also assure you that we refund agressively and have almost no chargebacks. However if refunds plus chargebacks goes above 1% we get screwed. How do you deal with a problem if a refund does not help you but instead hurts you?

Kimmykim · 05-12-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono

I can tell you we do none of the above and do not even do recurring billing. I can also assure you that we refund agressively and have almost no chargebacks. However if refunds plus chargebacks goes above 1% we get screwed. How do you deal with a problem if a refund does not help you but instead hurts you?

Don't try to reason with that moron, Lee, you're only wasting your breath.

JimW · 05-12-2003, 03:55 PM

go epoch!!

Pornkings · 05-12-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BossHawg
Kudos to Paycom.

Glad to have you as my primary processor as under 1% on credits and cb's is damn near impossible and seems like an attempt to milk as much money as they can from their merchants.

Good luck on this battle and keep us updated!

Ditto

Chris Mallick · 05-12-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono
How about you make this a class action? We have our own merchant account and could only contibute pennies toward the fees but I think the entire industry and others should join this suit?

Call Jeff Thaler in our offices, 888-627-3888. We are starting a list.

Chris Mallick · 05-12-2003, 03:57 PM

Thank you everyone for your support.

Chris, Clay, Joel

49thParallel · 05-12-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Probono

I can tell you we do none of the above and do not even do recurring billing. I can also assure you that we refund agressively and have almost no chargebacks. However if refunds plus chargebacks goes above 1% we get screwed. How do you deal with a problem if a refund does not help you but instead hurts you?

And its operators like yourself who try and run an honest business who are truly screwed by the other scam operators and the resulting wrath of Mastercard.

But, if it takes the wrath of MC to take the scum operators out..well so be it.

tony286 · 05-12-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Don't try to reason with that moron, Lee, you're only wasting your breath.

How can you call the other guy a moron? Those things he spoke about dont happen, are you living in dream land? We became high risk because adult webmasters fucked the customer and then webmaster lost their rights to fight. Thank you Paycom for fighting for us and I still havent heard from anyone.

Bill8 · 05-12-2003, 04:06 PM

Thank you, Paycom.

Thank you very much!

SykkBoy · 05-12-2003, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off.

are you 100% sure you are not spacedog?

hey, when is your big fancy, shiny new program coming out? Come on, show us how it's done

wait until you get those users who come in and suck up your bandwidth and then scream like litle itches with bruised knees when wifey finds the credit card bill and you get a chargeback..those are so much fun.....wait until you get your first email "my 10 year old son stole my credit card and bought a membership to your site" emails....how about the day you may have an issue with leased feeds or a server and and people aske for a refund that egts counted the same as a chargeback...

it'll never happen though, because we have yet to see your big, shiny new program....and I doubt we ever will......

while I agree the scammers who purposely double bill should be dealt with, I also believe that surfers who defraud website should likely be punished, but it is not going to happen anytime soon......

as for the cancelling a trial 24 hours before it expires, have you ever tried to cancel an AOL membership? how about a magazine subscription?

I can't believe I've wasted this much typing time on a reply to your typically uneducated post......

seven · 05-12-2003, 04:13 PM

Hats off to you

Lane · 05-12-2003, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off.

stop being a fag and re-read the whole thing..

"To make this issue even more onerous, MasterCard counts known stolen cards against us in calculating the ratios. For example: DPI was hacked and hackers got 13 million card numbers (about 5 million or so were MasterCards). MasterCard knows which cards were compromised, but has not cancelled those cards nor will it give us a list of the compromised accounts numbers so we can block them in our system. The result is that criminals can buy the card numbers from the hackers, sign up as resellers, run the cards through our system; and MasterCard places the full liability for that fraud on our clients' and our shoulders."

what does this have to do with trials?
oh, and did you know the #1 thing that is bought with stolen credit cards or with "daddy's card" are adult site memberships? because there is no shipping address involved.

good luck EPOCH

49thParallel · 05-12-2003, 04:20 PM

Yes...my mistake...all things are rosy and ethical in adult land.

Nah, fuck it...Paycom, enjoy your shining moment...but maybe you should take a second and look at the type of crap that you allow to process through your system....

Mastercard has my vote...

And SBoy...yes, there is some customer fraud...but nothing compared to the absolute shit that this industry rans down on the consumer on a daily basis....

FATPad · 05-12-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off.

Like you, I hate all that tricky billing scummy shit, and believe that that type of stuff has helped the situation reach this point.

My friend convinced me to read the actual pdf file that's linked in the first post.

I only made it to page 42, but I would have to say MC is doing some really crappy stuff that needs to be addressed, too. While the tricky billers aren't helping, MC themselves is a large part of the problem if what is being alleged is true.

At least read it before making judgements. ;) It's a pretty informative document and rather interesting. I thought it was anyways, even though I didn't finish it. I'll probably try reading the rest later tonight.

heymatty · 05-12-2003, 04:22 PM

Good luck epoch its about time the card associations got some heat

ZoiNk · 05-12-2003, 04:28 PM

I am 100% behind you Paycom/Epoch. I am glad you are fighting back against unfair business practices.
ZoiNk

05-12-2003, 02:18 PM	#3
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	what's this got to do with us? __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

05-12-2003, 02:19 PM	#4
Wizzo 2011 GFY Hall of Fame! Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Back in Texas! Posts: 15,224	Good Stuff and Good Luck! __________________ Looking for Opportunity!

05-12-2003, 02:24 PM	#8
WiredGuy Pounding Googlebot Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 34,482	Best of luck to you, its great to see one of the high risk IPSP taking on the credit card companies directly. I hope for your success and will hopefully lead to lower merchant / processing fees with your success. Let us know on your progress in the case as details emerge, this is definitely a case I would like to follow up on. WG __________________ I play with Google.

05-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#11
robfantasy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Medellin, Colombia Posts: 6,445	go EPOCH !! __________________ Looking to speak w/ high volume nutra CPA affiliates or networks... msg me

05-12-2003, 02:28 PM	#12
mrbling Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 365	yup, credits due where its deserved. paycom rocks here. __________________ millionare by 18 , beat that hOES

05-12-2003, 02:15 PM	#1
EpochCEO Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Marina del Rey Posts: 4	MasterCard Sued for Antitrust Violations & Fraud May 12, 2003 MasterCard Sued for Antitrust Violations & Fraud MARINA DEL REY, CA. Paycom Billing Services, Inc., an Internet Payment Service Provider, processing credit card and check transactions for Internet merchants, filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit today in Federal Court in Los Angeles against MasterCard International for antitrust violations, fraud and other issues. Paycom's suit alleges that MasterCard has established monopolistic rules that allow it unreasonable discretion to dominate Internet merchants, and it has exercised this power to illegally impose fines and penalties in the millions of dollars. Former Federal Prosecutors for the US Department of Justice, William McD. Miller and Richard P. Crane, Jr. of the Los Angeles law firm Musick, Peeler & Garrett LLP and Dennis M. P. Ehling, filed the lawsuit on behalf of the Plaintiff. Mr. Crane stated, "A United States Federal District Court has already determined that MasterCard is a monopoly. MasterCard's continued unfair dealings and the imposition of baseless fines, penalties and fees on Internet merchants, such as Paycom, simply prove the abusive control that one finds in a monopoly." Paycom's Chief Executive Officer, Christopher Mallick, commented "We are in compliance with MasterCard's rules as a merchant, yet they fine us millions of dollars. Paycom has been directed to change its entire business structure, indeed to change the way in which E-commerce works, to comply with additional rules from MasterCard; rules that MasterCard cannot or will not articulate or explain." Mallick added, "These rules are unreasonable and demonstrate MasterCard's intent to continue to economically bully Internet merchants. Paycom has a responsibility to our employees and our clients. The intent of this lawsuit is to force MasterCard to treat us and other Internet merchants fairly and to permit us to operate as any other merchant class. This is a business that we built on our ability to accept MasterCard, one of the only currencies available for online shoppers." The litigation alleges MasterCard violated several Federal and California State laws including violations of Federal and California State anti-trust laws, denial of fair procedures, unfair competition, fraud, breach of contract and breach of implied covenants of good faith and fair dealing, intentional interference with Paycom's contractual relationships, and intentional and negligent interference with Paycom's prospective business advantage, and seeks damages, declaratory and injunctive relief. Paycom's lawsuit may be found at www.paycom.net/mastercard/lawsuit.pdf All inquiries should be directed to: Dennis M. P. Ehling, Esq. Musick, Peeler & Garrett, LLP Telephone: 213-629-7600 or by email: [email protected]

05-12-2003, 02:16 PM	#2
EpochCEO Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Marina del Rey Posts: 4	Paycom / EPOCH Sues MasterCard Today Paycom / EPOCH sued MasterCard International in Federal Court in Los Angeles. Our suit alleges Anti Trust violations, Fraud and Unfair Trade Practices by MasterCard against Paycom / EPOCH and Internet merchants in the so-called "high-risk" space. The lawsuit may be found at: www.paycom.net/MasterCard/lawsuit.pdf. I suggest reading the entire lawsuit if you have time. If not, pages 21 - 44 tell the story of why we are suing. We will continue to accept MasterCard during and after this lawsuit. Paycom / EPOCH made a decision that the only way to ensure the long term ability of our business, that of our clients and that of the other high risk internet merchants to accept MasterCard was to file this lawsuit. We tried everything to avoid this, but MasterCard has simply become too unreasonable to deal with in our marketplace. There is no simple way to explain this lawsuit. However, in an effort to give you the basics, here are the main issues: MasterCard has set the chargeback ratio for high-risk Internet merchants at 1%. MasterCard has also said that when a Merchant's credits exceed its chargebacks, it will count credits as chargebacks. However, credits almost always exceed chargebacks, so MasterCard has in effect made a rule that the combined chargeback and credit ratio must be below 1%. If Paycom / EPOCH (or any high risk Internet merchant) goes over the 1% threshold for 2 consecutive months, then MasterCard can impose fines of up to $100 per chargeback and credit plus $100K per month. It has also said that it has the right to continue to impose these fines for at least 12 months even if we are under the 1% ratio during those months. You can see why this is an impossible situation when you consider, for example, that because of MasterCard's "Zero Liability" policy, we must issue a credit whenever a card holder claims that he or she did not authorize a charge. MasterCard is now penalizing us for following its rules by issuing credits. But, if we refuse to issue credits, MasterCard will punish us anyway since those cardholders will charge back. It is simply an unacceptable situation. To make this issue even more onerous, MasterCard counts known stolen cards against us in calculating the ratios. For example: DPI was hacked and hackers got 13 million card numbers (about 5 million or so were MasterCards). MasterCard knows which cards were compromised, but has not cancelled those cards nor will it give us a list of the compromised accounts numbers so we can block them in our system. The result is that criminals can buy the card numbers from the hackers, sign up as resellers, run the cards through our system; and MasterCard places the full liability for that fraud on our clients' and our shoulders. Paycom / EPOCH was also fined late last week approximately $1.5 million for being in the "Excessive Chargeback Program." However, a fine should not have been imposed. MasterCard did not have right to fine us under its rules, and it will not even give us the courtesy of an explanation as to why it imposed the fine. We are not passing those fines to our clients at this time, even though we have the right to do so. Instead we are standing up for the industry and fighting for our collective rights in this litigation. MasterCard is a monopoly, as a United States Federal District Court has already determined. As such, a monopoly like MasterCard has a duty and an obligation to treat us fairly as a class of merchants. We are going to try and make sure it lives up to that duty. Wal-Mart did. Home Depot will. We know we are not Wal-Mart or Home Depot, but we are entitled to insist on fair treatment just like they are. We expect a great number of questions so we are staying late tonight to answer as many as we can. The lawsuit speaks for itself, but we know you will want and that you deserve direct answers. Paycom / EPOCH clients are encouraged to email questions as well, indicating your Master Code in the Subject line. Please email any processing questions to [email protected]. Rest assured, processing will not be interrupted and payments will not be affected. -- The Team at EPOCH

05-12-2003, 02:21 PM	#6
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	about time someone did this. i take my hat off to you

05-12-2003, 02:25 PM	#10
BossHawg Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 549	Kudos to Paycom. Glad to have you as my primary processor as under 1% on credits and cb's is damn near impossible and seems like an attempt to milk as much money as they can from their merchants. Good luck on this battle and keep us updated!

05-12-2003, 02:30 PM	#13
nevermind Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 276	Whoah! I wonder how this will affect their ability to do biz with Mastercard?

05-12-2003, 02:32 PM	#14
Sly_RJ Live Hard - Die Hard Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ready to leave... Posts: 17,042	And yet another reason I'm looking forward to using Epoch. Very nice. __________________ PHAT SERVERS - Quality dedicated hosting at a quality price! sly AT phatservers DOT com - 147479144

05-12-2003, 02:34 PM	#17
PR_Phil Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: knee deep in dirty diapers Posts: 1,960	Good luck Epoch! Kick-em in the nutz! __________________

05-12-2003, 02:36 PM	#18
OY Industry Pioneer Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA/EU/ASIA Posts: 5,401	Paycom/Epoch has impressed me, standing up for our industry in this way is fantastic. All the best of luck and good forces be with you! __________________ Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!

05-12-2003, 02:41 PM	#19
Probono Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Under the Rainbow Posts: 2,731	Bravo I am glad you have both the budget and the cajones to do this. Good luck, what you are doing will effect all of us.

05-12-2003, 02:46 PM	#20
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I wonder if some of the other major billers would consider joining this lawsuit. Its in everyone's best interest for Epoch to win on this one. What I am wondering is when someone will take on Visa. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

05-12-2003, 02:54 PM	#22
Lensman GFY Chaperone Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Adult.com Posts: 9,846	I'm on the conference call right now that's covering the suit.

05-12-2003, 02:58 PM	#23
chupacabra Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,626	talk about taking one for the team... this affects all of us on some level; you go guys, and good luck..!

05-12-2003, 03:01 PM	#24
Mishi Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,054	Bravo EPOCH! __________________ Looking for PHP/MySQL solutions? Check out Cyboriginal - custom scripts, installation services and more.

05-12-2003, 03:03 PM	#25
Why MFBA Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PNW Posts: 7,230	FUCK MASTERCARD. and visa too. its about time someone stood up to them. specially from this industry. i think any judge in his right mind can see that what mastercard and visa are doing is some scandalous bullshit.

05-12-2003, 03:15 PM	#27
Jizar II Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: LLL© Posts: 1,425	Wow. good luck

05-12-2003, 03:30 PM	#29
NADINEXXX Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 44	CUDOS, CUDOS, CUDOS to you. i am sure the entire adult internet industry is behind you in this endeavor. Perhaps what will come of this is the partnership that should be. __________________ Nadine ICQ 159388911

05-12-2003, 03:36 PM	#30
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	Wow - Epoch just jumped up 100 points on my personal scale of billers. Maybe time to try them out for a couple of new projects coming up... More than that though - fucking good job too. It's about time that somebody had the balls to do this. Mind you when the fines start to potentially exceed the court costs of such an action it's enevitable that somebody will say enough and take this step. for Epoch for being the 1st!

05-12-2003, 03:37 PM	#31
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969

05-12-2003, 03:38 PM	#33
49thParallel So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,197	Hmmm...here's a slightly different solution...Stop processing for all of the scamming adult sites with their deceptive free trials, cross sales, 3 day trials that need to be cancelled 24 hours prior to end of trial, and other scum tricks. Oh, but what am I saying... it's the big bad Mastercards fault for trying to stop consumers from being ripped off. Last edited by 49thParallel; 05-12-2003 at 03:41 PM..

05-12-2003, 03:39 PM	#34
EscortBiz Fuck Checks, CASH only! Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 19,422	great work guys! __________________ Spanking, Medical Fetish, Sleeping, Strap-on Anal Lesbians, Girls Fucking Guys, Handjob site REAL HOT, Shemales, Anal and Ass Licking sites 100% Real EXCLUSIVE with amazing retention, ccbill payouts, lots of content FREE FTP HOSTING Promote the largest and oldest member paid escort site, Converts 10 times better then any dating site, CCBill payouts ICQ# 158802076

05-12-2003, 03:55 PM	#37
JimW Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 422	go epoch!!

05-12-2003, 03:57 PM	#40
Chris Mallick Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Marina del Rey, CA, USA Posts: 679	Thank you everyone for your support. Chris, Clay, Joel __________________ Chris Mallick [email protected]

05-12-2003, 04:06 PM	#43
Bill8 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,901	Thank you, Paycom. Thank you very much!

05-12-2003, 04:13 PM	#45
seven Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LaLa Land Posts: 2,697	Hats off to you __________________ Toy Rev Rouge Web Design

05-12-2003, 04:20 PM	#47
49thParallel So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,197	Yes...my mistake...all things are rosy and ethical in adult land. Nah, fuck it...Paycom, enjoy your shining moment...but maybe you should take a second and look at the type of crap that you allow to process through your system.... Mastercard has my vote... And SBoy...yes, there is some customer fraud...but nothing compared to the absolute shit that this industry rans down on the consumer on a daily basis....

05-12-2003, 04:22 PM	#49
heymatty Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Scottsdale :) Posts: 2,188	Good luck epoch its about time the card associations got some heat __________________ Cashlantis ~ Black Book Cash

05-12-2003, 04:28 PM	#50
ZoiNk Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 2,370	I am 100% behind you Paycom/Epoch. I am glad you are fighting back against unfair business practices. ZoiNk __________________ "People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black." - Henry Ford