A Lawyer's Opinion on Model IDs and Release Forms - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Groove · 05-07-2003, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BVF
It must have been some good shit if you wasted HOURS watching that shit.....

Did you bring a towel?

Hah, hah, very funny

I contacted Sobe and asked if docs were available and Sobe said that he would e-mail docs for all sets that I purchased. I consequently dowloaded and viewed samples for each of his 200+ videos (and yes this took several "hours" because there were 200+ sets and it's difficult to know which sets you want unless you look at them!) and selected 80 that I wanted to purchase. Then after I'd placed an order, Sobe announced that he wanted $10 per-set for the docs meaning that the content was going to cost $400 and the docs were going to cost an extra $800. I think it's fine for Sobe to charge for the docs if that's what he wants to do. It's just a pity that he didn't mention this $800 "administrative fee" up-front!

tony286 · 05-07-2003, 07:45 AM

Two things first that is the law but webmasters are dealing with Mom pop companies for content providers. To make sure everything is valid is not a bad idea. I like your work AAron and respect your opinion but for all I know you could can be some guy in his mothers basement or some guy who shoots chicks for kicks and then sells it without them knowing. I mean if you are a real business why isnt there a contact phone number on your website? The net is a great mask and in legal matters its better to be safe then sorry. I buy content from you and in 4 years from the fed knock on my door looking for my records and one of models is yours. You are out of business ,I have no phone number for you, god knows where you are. I think the content provider disappeared defense is not going to work. From what I have seen on the board the last two months lots and lots of content specials at we lost our lease prices. I think the content business is going thru a rough time and that means some will disppear. Also whats the big deal to give people what they want. If content providers have such rough time providing these records. Buy a camera and learn to shoot your own content , its more exclusive and worth more to the consumer.

Paul Markham · 05-07-2003, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyMischief
Charly once again forgets the thread where the VERY SAME LAWYER he's been quoting (and he used the SAME EXACT WORDS too) came into thre thread and told him that only primary producers are legally required to keep records. He backpeddled, too. Check it out.

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...pagen umber=1

Not only that, but Lawrence Walters had a chat giving imformation about 2257 law and how it applies to you (a question and answer thing). How many of you went and got informed?

Nuff said.

I am not talking about 2257 I'm talking about other issues. Such as.

the documents existing.
The girl being over age.
The seller having the right to sell.
The seller being the owner of the images.

You keep bringing it back to 2257. Why?

I have decided I will give out the set's documents with all of out content. With all the girls contact details removed. The webmaster then can make his own decision.

He can be the Custodain of Records.
He can check the documents and still list us as CoR.
Or he can delete them from his computer.

We give the client this option, others are fighting madly not too.

You want to preserve the girls annonimity? Don't take pictures of her with her panties down and spread them across the Internet.

Paul Markham · 05-07-2003, 08:12 AM

tony404
Stop coming up with reasonable arguments, they are not interested.

They post on GFY so they must be straight up guys.

Reality, they cannot give an address because they work from home. As for a phone number that would mean pissed off clients phoning them.

Mine is +420 603 298 001 Phone me it's by my side. Plus my address is on my site.

And at the moment the market is getting very soft, so who is to say every content supplier in it today will be in it tomorrow.

Joesho · 05-07-2003, 08:31 AM

My lawyer can beat up your lawyer...

Rochard · 05-07-2003, 08:33 AM

Wow, did I get blasted on this thread.

Here's a though that all of your are missing....... What if I purchase content from "company x" and "company x" goes out of business and I have no current contact information to reach this company? When they come knocking on my door what am I going to say? Sorry, we purchased this content from "company x" and they are no longer in business, we cannot contact them, and thus we cannot provide 2257 information. Opps.

To further complicate matters, what if this content was produced in another country?

When they come knocking on my door I want to be able to hand them 2257 info for every photo I have on every website - This way there is no doubt and the matter is settled right there.

Also - I said this earlier in this thread - When they do coming knocking on your door they are coming after you, and making you a target. They will use anything they can to take you down.

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
Two things first that is the law but webmasters are dealing with Mom pop companies for content providers. To make sure everything is valid is not a bad idea. I like your work AAron and respect your opinion but for all I know you could can be some guy in his mothers basement or some guy who shoots chicks for kicks and then sells it without them knowing. I mean if you are a real business why isnt there a contact phone number on your website? The net is a great mask and in legal matters its better to be safe then sorry. I buy content from you and in 4 years from the fed knock on my door looking for my records and one of models is yours. You are out of business ,I have no phone number for you, god knows where you are. I think the content provider disappeared defense is not going to work. From what I have seen on the board the last two months lots and lots of content specials at we lost our lease prices. I think the content business is going thru a rough time and that means some will disppear. Also whats the big deal to give people what they want. If content providers have such rough time providing these records. Buy a camera and learn to shoot your own content , its more exclusive and worth more to the consumer.

Tony, my phone number can be located on the who is info of the site. If in 4 years I am out of business and the Feds come to you looking for these docs, you will simply hand them a copy of my license agreement. Since you are in the US and I am in the US, I am pretty sure that the Feds can locate me. Again, this is why I sugggest purchasing from provider in your own country. My business and it's parent company are both registered with the State of Oregon and my images are all copyrighted through the US Government. Even if the Feds can not locate me, they can see that I own the copyright on the images (because unlike most providers, I actually legally copyright them) and therefore I am responsible as the primary producer.

The content biz is not going through a rough time. The people who are doing things half assed and slashing their prices are mainly making it more difficult for themselves at this point.

Having a copy of the ID's is NOT a bad idea but listing yourself as the custodian of records is...IMO...Because it places the responsibility on you for maintaining records that you have not seen the ORIGINAL documents for AND the fact that simply having the ID's and the Release (Which I will NEVER give to a webmaster) still does not make you compliant. The average webmaster does not understand these laws and yet people like Paul and RocHard are encouraging them to take on a responsibility that they do not even understand.

As for Paul saying that he is not debating the legal issue...BULLSHIT. If he were not making it a legal debate then he would not have posted links from attorneys and requested that I do the same. Paul's own attorney clearly does not understand the law, as I have pointed out. How can he be expected to?

SoBeGirl Video · 05-07-2003, 08:50 AM

RockHard,

But when you show them those 2257 docs they have all the most impotant informatin blanked out. To an investigator,withouth that information, those docs could have just have been all fabricated on a PC with a graphics application. Yes or no?

Talk about giving them some ammo to go after you with. Well that is a bomb right there. "Your honor, this guy has all these falsified documents claiming these girls are over 18"

Would you just rather say, Look I bought these from producer X who is the custodian of records, Here is his or her info..Go after them....

And with that being the cast what good are they but a false sense or securiyt...

So what is next? Webmasters will ask for the docs but they will want nothing blanked out. Where do we go from here?

Answer that?

LadyMischief · 05-07-2003, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charly
I am not talking about 2257 I'm talking about other issues. Such as.

the documents existing.
The girl being over age.
The seller having the right to sell.
The seller being the owner of the images.

You keep bringing it back to 2257. Why?

I have decided I will give out the set's documents with all of out content. With all the girls contact details removed. The webmaster then can make his own decision.

He can be the Custodain of Records.
He can check the documents and still list us as CoR.
Or he can delete them from his computer.

We give the client this option, others are fighting madly not too.

You want to preserve the girls annonimity? Don't take pictures of her with her panties down and spread them across the Internet.

YOU keep bringing it back to 2257 as well . But regardless, yes it is a good idea to know this information exists, but the question begs, WHY would you EVER in a MILLION years buy from a content provider you had a doubt, even for a SECOND, had full documention and rights on the images. Might as well get copies of their resellers agreements if they broker, too, just for added proof. Altered docs do NOTHING in court, so there is no way a webmaster could possibly perform Custodial duties on any images unless they had FULL DOCUMENTATION UNALTERED. And even THEN it's sketchy. Why not just send them all photocopies of the hardcopy then?

I am not adverse to supplying documentation (altered to protect the model) upon request to any customer. However, suggesting that they attempt to act as their OWN custodian is highly incorrect, and will end them up in MORE trouble when the cops come knocking.

"Hello, it claims on this website that you are the custodian for these images."
"Yes, I am listed as Custodian"
"Could we please go through your records"
"Alright"
"You only have these altered scans? What kind of game are you trying to play, son? Off to jail with you"

Even the mere suggestion of it gives me shivers of horror. People take things VERY literally, Paul, and I'm sure there's people off scurrying to change information as we speak. Altering docs to protect model's personal information is great, giving docs to customers is NOTHING MORE THAN COMFORT. That's fine. But to suggest EVEN for a second that those docs are TRULY going to protect them in a pinch, NOT A CHANCE.

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
Wow, did I get blasted on this thread.

Yes, you did...And I am about to blast you again. Here you are posting, yet again, about something that is clearly defined in the law that you do not have proper knowledge of.

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
Here's a though that all of your are missing....... What if I purchase content from "company x" and "company x" goes out of business and I have no current contact information to reach this company? When they come knocking on my door what am I going to say? Sorry, we purchased this content from "company x" and they are no longer in business, we cannot contact them, and thus we cannot provide 2257 information. Opps.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what you do and here is the law that proves it:

Sec. 75.2 Maintenance of records.

(c) The information contained in the records required to be created and maintained by this part need be current only as of the time the primary producer actually films, videotapes, or photographs the visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct. If the producer subsequently produces an additional book, magazine, film, videotape or other matter that contains one or more visual depictions of actual sexually explicit conduct made by a performer for whom he maintains records as required by this part, the producer may add the additional title and/or identifying number and the names of the performer to the existing records maintained pursuant to Sec. 75.2(a)(2)."

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
To further complicate matters, what if this content was produced in another country?

That's a risk you take. If you wish to avoid this 100%, don't buy from a provider in another country.

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
When they come knocking on my door I want to be able to hand them 2257 info for every photo I have on every website - This way there is no doubt and the matter is settled right there.

This may be true, but are you sure you want to take on that responsibility when you can't comprehend the rest of this law?

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
Also - I said this earlier in this thread - When they do coming knocking on your door they are coming after you, and making you a target. They will use anything they can to take you down.

And if this is the case then do you honestly think that having the docs on hand will stop them? No. They will pull you in for farting just so they can process you.

LeeNoga · 05-07-2003, 08:58 AM

Gawd, "Get a laywer, see a lawyer, talk to a laywer".

Seeking legal counsel should be a line item in everyones budget, but thats never gonna happen.

For some reason some folks see no risk in dealing in porn since we enjoyed the leniant Clinton years, and benign Bush years to date.

Get model releases, place the USC 2257 statement on your site, and worry about what toy your going to buy next.

Sheesh.

LadyMischief · 05-07-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
Wow, did I get blasted on this thread.

Here's a though that all of your are missing....... What if I purchase content from "company x" and "company x" goes out of business and I have no current contact information to reach this company? When they come knocking on my door what am I going to say? Sorry, we purchased this content from "company x" and they are no longer in business, we cannot contact them, and thus we cannot provide 2257 information. Opps.

To further complicate matters, what if this content was produced in another country?

When they come knocking on my door I want to be able to hand them 2257 info for every photo I have on every website - This way there is no doubt and the matter is settled right there.

Also - I said this earlier in this thread - When they do coming knocking on your door they are coming after you, and making you a target. They will use anything they can to take you down.

Couldn't it be said then that they will take you down EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE DOCS? Do you HONESTLY think that having altered docs is in any way, shape, or form, going to protect you if the police come to your door?

However, getting unaltered docs shows not only bad form on the part of the content provider, handing out personal information is illegal. (especially informaiton that can end up being used for crimes such as murder or identity theft). It's almost like a catch 22, but then again, being in this industry is a risk in the first place. If you aren't willing to take the risk, get the fuck out now, because if the cops want your ass, they will take it any way they can. Altered docs will be the LEAST of your worries.

I'm not saying don't get docs.. If it makes you feel better, it's cool. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, TRUST YOUR CONTENT PROVIDER! If you don't, go somewhere else. Period.

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoBeGirl Video
RockHard,

But when you show them those 2257 docs they have all the most impotant informatin blanked out. To an investigator,withouth that information, those docs could have just have been all fabricated on a PC with a graphics application. Yes or no?

Talk about giving them some ammo to go after you with. Well that is a bomb right there. "Your honor, this guy has all these falsified documents claiming these girls are over 18"

Would you just rather say, Look I bought these from producer X who is the custodian of records, Here is his or her info..Go after them....

And with that being the cast what good are they but a false sense or securiyt...

So what is next? Webmasters will ask for the docs but they will want nothing blanked out. Where do we go from here?

Answer that?

hehehe...

Sobe gets it.

Altered docs = bullshit docs. Given to webmasters as a comfort thing only.

FATPad · 05-07-2003, 09:02 AM

Aaron, you're going under the assumption nothing unforseen ever happens. That buying from a rock solid, completely legal, US based company means for 100% certainty that company will be around in 4 or 7 or 10 years with the records.

Unforseen things happen. The best of content producers could be gone at some future point in time without a trace.

You're also assuming that everyone asking for docs is listing themselves as the custodian, when I doubt that is true.

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeeNoga
Get model releases, place the USC 2257 statement on your site, and worry about what toy your going to buy next.

Sheesh.

Hey Lee. How many model releases have you personally reviewed? Please tell me how a model release, which is an agreement between the primary producer and the model, will have any benefit for the webmaster who's name is not even included on the release.

The release is also NOT required by law so how can you suggest that they get a copy of something and post a 2257 statement at the same time? The 2 have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

As I recall, you represent Cyber Erotica. Here is a link to their 2257 page. Do you see them acting as their own custodian of records for any of the content produced by other parties? Hell no. So why would you suggest any differently?

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Aaron, you're going under the assumption nothing unforseen ever happens. That buying from a rock solid, completely legal, US based company means for 100% certainty that company will be around in 4 or 7 or 10 years with the records.

Unforseen things happen. The best of content producers could be gone at some future point in time without a trace.

You're also assuming that everyone asking for docs is listing themselves as the custodian, when I doubt that is true.

I am not assuming anything. Read the above portion of law that I quoted. The info is only required to be current on publication. If the info changes...IE, the provider moves, goes under, whatever then they are still compliant with the law, assuming they maintain the records for 5 years, because of their initial statement.

As for listing themselves as the custodian.....OTHER people are suggesting that. I am simply indicating why this is a poor idea...>BUT, let's look at this realisticly...Why else would one need copies of ID's if not to prove age? Oh yeah...For comfort.

FATPad · 05-07-2003, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

I am not assuming anything. Read the above portion of law that I quoted. The info is only required to be current on publication. If the info changes...IE, the provider moves, goes under, whatever then they are still compliant with the law, assuming they maintain the records for 5 years, because of their initial statement.

As for listing themselves as the custodian.....OTHER people are suggesting that. I am simply indicating why this is a poor idea...>BUT, let's look at this realisticly...Why else would one need copies of ID's if not to prove age? Oh yeah...For comfort.

Listing yourself as custodian is stupid. I agree with that.

But like you said, "assuming they maintain the records for 5 years".

Like I said, unforseen things happen. There is no guarantee that any content producer in the world will be around in 5 years.

If someone gets arrested, and their content provider is gone (for whatever reason), it would be better to have something than nothing except a useless address to go into court with.

And again, listing yourself as custodian is stupid.

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Like I said, unforseen things happen. There is no guarantee that any content producer in the world will be around in 5 years.

If someone gets arrested, and their content provider is gone (for whatever reason), it would be better to have something than nothing except a useless address to go into court with.

If the producer is in the US and does not maitain the records as required then that is not your problem, it is theirs.

Having copies of altered ID's is not better than nothing. Try being a US citizen and driving into Canada with only a drivers license as ID. You will almost certainly get in. Now try it again with a drivers license and an altered copy of your birth certificate and see how quickly they turn your ass around.

You are better off with the single original ID because the altered one sends up a red flag. In this case, you will not be provided with an unaltered ID in the first place. How is this better?

xxxdesign-net · 05-07-2003, 09:30 AM

Just a wild idea here...

Is there any laws to protect the models...

I mean from the stalkers and weirdos!?

If they like a girl on the net, the only thing they got to do is buy some content of her... and they'll get her real name, ss# and drivers license number.... in 10 min. They'll have her adress and phone#

Do any of you guys mention that to the models? I mean that possibility?

If one of your models get attack by a stalking fan... will she be able to sue you for not letting her know about giving away her IDs to maybe sick fuck!???

Carrie · 05-07-2003, 09:32 AM

Larry Walters was in live chat yesterday for at least an hour answering any and all questions thrown at him about Protect (Amber Alert Bill) and 2257 requirements.
Even if you think you know all of the answers, you should have gone.
Twinkley from TheAdultWebmaster.com promised to have transcripts of that chat posted and available today if anyone's interested.

FATPad · 05-07-2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

If the producer is in the US and does not maitain the records as required then that is not your problem, it is theirs.

That's all well and good on paper.

Until someone is sitting in an FBI room going "I gave you the address they gave me, I can't help it you can't find them, it's not my problem".

At that point, anything you have, even a simple photo ID pic and/or release jpg will definitely be better than nothing.

You are assuming the content producers will be around at that time, when there is ZERO guarantee that they will be.

LadyMischief · 05-07-2003, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxdesign-net
Just a wild idea here...

Is there any laws to protect the models...

I mean from the stalkers and weirdos!?

If they like a girl on the net, the only thing they got to do is buy some content of her... and they'll get her real name, ss# and drivers license number.... in 10 min. They'll have her adress and phone#

Do any of you guys mention that to the models? I mean that possibility?

If one of your models get attack by a stalking fan... will she be able to sue you for not letting her know about giving away her IDs to maybe sick fuck!???

Why the hell do you think we won't give out unaltered docs? I had to deal with a model of mine being stalked once (though hers was some guy at work who found her pics). It was scary as shit and to think of someone else going through that just absolutely scares the hell out of me.

LadyMischief · 05-07-2003, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie
Larry Walters was in live chat yesterday for at least an hour answering any and all questions thrown at him about Protect (Amber Alert Bill) and 2257 requirements.
Even if you think you know all of the answers, you should have gone.
Twinkley from TheAdultWebmaster.com promised to have transcripts of that chat posted and available today if anyone's interested.

Absolutely

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
That's all well and good on paper.

Until someone is sitting in an FBI room going "I gave you the address they gave me, I can't help it you can't find them, it's not my problem".

At that point, anything you have, even a simple photo ID pic and/or release jpg will definitely be better than nothing.

You are assuming the content producers will be around at that time, when there is ZERO guarantee that they will be.

A: The FBI has no right to request these records in the first place.

B: I am NOT assuming that the content provider is around. Let's assume he is dead. The fact is that he was still compliant, as of the date of publication, per US law. We are talking about the US Government here. Do you honestly think that they can not verify my business address even after I am dead?

No offense meant but your comments are the typical mentality of a US webmaster who does not understand the laws. Although there are some unclear parts of these laws, the points that you are bringing up are very clearly addressed.

xxxdesign-net · 05-07-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyMischief

Why the hell do you think we won't give out unaltered docs? I had to deal with a model of mine being stalked once (though hers was some guy at work who found her pics). It was scary as shit and to think of someone else going through that just absolutely scares the hell out of me.

uh, well, this is kind of my point....

altered docs are worth nothing if the cops cannot then verify if those are ligits docs and IDs...

FATPad · 05-07-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

B: I am NOT assuming that the content provider is around. Let's assume he is dead. The fact is that he was still compliant, as of the date of publication, per US law. We are talking about the US Government here. Do you honestly think that they can not verify my business address even after I am dead?

Like I said SEVERAL times now...you are ASSUMING the records are somewhere to be found. There is no guarantee that you or your records will be found in 5 years when I get arrested.

At that point, having a photo ID and/or release is better than NOTHING.

It's all great on paper. Content providers have to keep their records for X years and the govt can track down anyone they want.

Reality is, there is no guarantee any of you producers will be around in X years or that your records can be found.

I don't understand why you are having such a hard time grasping that. *shrugs*

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Like I said SEVERAL times now...you are ASSUMING the records are somewhere to be found. There is no guarantee that you or your records will be found in 5 years when I get arrested.

At that point, having a photo ID and/or release is better than NOTHING.

It's all great on paper. Content providers have to keep their records for X years and the govt can track down anyone they want.

Reality is, there is no guarantee any of you producers will be around in X years or that your records can be found.

I don't understand why you are having such a hard time grasping that. *shrugs*

I am not assuming a fucking thing. You want me to assume something? Fine. Let's assume that my records center burns down and all 2257 docs are destroyed. Now what? Are all of my clients suddenly non-compliant? Am I at risk for going to prison? No. Once again....In this case I was compliant on the date of publication. The fact that my records burned up is out of my control and I am not going to be held liable for it unless I intentionally started the fire.

Read the law.

FATPad · 05-07-2003, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

I am not assuming a fucking thing. You want me to assume something? Fine. Let's assume that my records center burns down and all 2257 docs are destroyed. Now what? Are all of my clients suddenly non-compliant? Am I at risk for going to prison? No. Once again....In this case I was compliant on the date of publication. The fact that my records burned up is out of my control and I am not going to be held liable for it unless I intentionally started the fire.

Read the law.

Right. And while I'm sitting in custody, you've disappeared without a trace, your record center burnt down, no one can prove you were compliant on the date of production because your records are all toast, and I will be let go because the govt takes my word for it.

LadyMischief · 05-07-2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxdesign-net

uh, well, this is kind of my point....

altered docs are worth nothing if the cops cannot then verify if those are ligits docs and IDs...

Of course, and yet, giving them out unaltered is just asking for more trouble. A catch-22. But even unaltered docs won't help if you don't have production dates, etc etc etc. Custodial duties should lie with the person who HAS all the hardcopy, the production dates, etc. As an end-user of the images, docs are only for your comfort anyways.

Rochard · 05-07-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

I am not assuming a fucking thing. You want me to assume something? Fine. Let's assume that my records center burns down and all 2257 docs are destroyed. Now what? Are all of my clients suddenly non-compliant? Am I at risk for going to prison? No. Once again....In this case I was compliant on the date of publication. The fact that my records burned up is out of my control and I am not going to be held liable for it unless I intentionally started the fire.

Read the law.

Your kidding here, right? As a content producer you MUST have copies of this. YOU MUST.

Look at Donnie - He put some pictures on line of some model, she's complaining, he can't find the model release, and he's gonna go to court over it.

We keep copies on the premises, a copy off premises in two different locations, and our attorney has copies.

Rochard · 05-07-2003, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoBeGirl Video
RockHard,

But when you show them those 2257 docs they have all the most impotant informatin blanked out. To an investigator,withouth that information, those docs could have just have been all fabricated on a PC with a graphics application. Yes or no?

Talk about giving them some ammo to go after you with. Well that is a bomb right there. "Your honor, this guy has all these falsified documents claiming these girls are over 18"

Would you just rather say, Look I bought these from producer X who is the custodian of records, Here is his or her info..Go after them....

And with that being the cast what good are they but a false sense or securiyt...

So what is next? Webmasters will ask for the docs but they will want nothing blanked out. Where do we go from here?

Answer that?

When I get copies of their IDs their address is blocked out, but their dl number or SNN - and their birthdate - isn't block out. That's what I need to clear myself on the spot.

Mutt · 05-07-2003, 10:30 AM

if Aaron is 100% right on all this, we as web publishers have absolutely no liability whatsoever for anything - we are free to buy content from whomever, no matter how shady - because according to Aaron it is up to the primary producer to be 2257 compliant, he lies, fails to be 2257 compliant, that's his problem, not his customers. Webmasters have no more responsibilty other than to point to the Custodian of Records. If the primary producer is a liar, fakes documentation for 15 year old models, doesn't keep records - it ain't the webmaster's fault. He's off the hook. Because that is all the law requires of a publisher. It does make sense, cuz it is IMPOSSIBLE for a webmaster/publisher to verify that the producer is doing business the right way according to the law. Even if we hired a private investigator to check out a producer, everything appeared to check out fine with regards to 2257, we have no way of ever knowing if he has faked documentation or he has been duped by an underage model.

ok i'm sure added nothing new to this but i started typing and it's too fucking late to turn back now!

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mutt
if Aaron is 100% right on all this, we as web publishers have absolutely no liability whatsoever for anything - we are free to buy content from whomever, no matter how shady - because according to Aaron it is up to the primary producer to be 2257 compliant, he lies, fails to be 2257 compliant, that's his problem, not his customers. Webmasters have no more responsibilty other than to point to the Custodian of Records. If the primary producer is a liar, fakes documentation for 15 year old models, doesn't keep records - it ain't the webmaster's fault. He's off the hook. Because that is all the law requires of a publisher. It does make sense, cuz it is IMPOSSIBLE for a webmaster/publisher to verify that the producer is doing business the right way according to the law. Even if we hired a private investigator to check out a producer, everything appeared to check out fine with regards to 2257, we have no way of ever knowing if he has faked documentation or he has been duped by an underage model.

ok i'm sure added nothing new to this but i started typing and it's too fucking late to turn back now!

My understanding is that if you have the proper 2257 declaration, from your provider, in place then this is pretty much the case....UNLESS you choose to list yourself as the custodian of records under the option of secondary producer.

These laws were designed to put the heat on the primary producer, not the distributor, secondary producer, or anybody else. Why anybody would want to take on that responsibility when they do not need to is beyond me.

RocHard...No, I am not joking. That is the law as it is written. If you would pull your head out of your ass long enough to read it then you might understand.

For the record:

My model release is a 4 part carbonless document.

Page 1: Filed under the models real name with a hardcopy of ID's and placed in a fireproof vault on premises.

Page 2: Filed under stage name assigned by me. Also a copy is filed under any and all other names provided by the model.

Page 3: Filed under the models real name with a hardcopy of ID's and placed in a standard vault off premises.

Page 4: Given to the model.

I also scan the release and burn it to CD along with the raw images and ID's. The CD's are then stored in a safety deposit box.

Not many content providers have taken these kind of precautions.

Brujah · 05-07-2003, 12:12 PM

You content guys are confusing. I don't think anyone should buy content from anyone. Just promote hosted galleries!

AaronM · 05-07-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brujah
You content guys are confusing. I don't think anyone should buy content from anyone. Just promote hosted galleries!

Fuck it...That works for me.

Seriously.

jact · 05-07-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by charly
So if the IDs are fake you go to jail any way.

At least by seeing them you are the one who makes the decision they are good or bad.

So now you want webmasters to be experts in authenticating identification too? You're too much old man.

jact · 05-07-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by charly
So we have to listen to a photographer legal opinion and ignore a lawyers. Wise move dude.

Again if the documents are forged you can still be for the high jump.

I think you've missed the fact that multiple lawyers have said otherwise to the statements that you've posted.

And it's quite obvious you don't care about the privacy concerns of your models, we won't even get into that.

jact · 05-07-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by charly
We have photographers on this thread giving opinions.

One with 25+ years says be careful get the documents.

One with less experience says do not get them, they might be forged.

And one has given you what his freind says a lawyer told him. Was his friend paying for this advice, why was his friend discussing with a lawyer porn law and where is the written legal opinion?

And we have a paid for lawyer giving his written opinion on how you should run your business.

Here is another lawyer, well practised in Internet and publishing laws to ask. Lawrence G Walters

Sobe and Aaron, talk to me about porno, photgraphy and video and I will listen. Talk to me about the law and I will not. Neither of you, like me are, qualified in law. That is why I paid for a lawyer.

Until you post your LAWYERS opinion that tells me other wise, I will continue to supply all my clients with documentation.

You know what Paul? I did speak with this lawyer, and you know what? He advises differently. See the thread LM posted earlier. Your arguement is old and even though you've backpeddled before, you keep coming back to your scare tactics.

jact · 05-07-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Like I said SEVERAL times now...you are ASSUMING the records are somewhere to be found. There is no guarantee that you or your records will be found in 5 years when I get arrested.

At that point, having a photo ID and/or release is better than NOTHING.

It's all great on paper. Content providers have to keep their records for X years and the govt can track down anyone they want.

Reality is, there is no guarantee any of you producers will be around in X years or that your records can be found.

I don't understand why you are having such a hard time grasping that. *shrugs*

Assuming the producer lives in the USA and is subject to US federal law, one would "hope" the fact that it's a federal offense not to maintain records for five years even if the company has been obsolved would be motivation enough.

However, we're talking about this industry, so I can easily see your arguement.

People don't seem to give a shit what the law says. :D

bethemask · 05-07-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard

Your kidding here, right? As a content producer you MUST have copies of this. YOU MUST.

Look at Donnie - He put some pictures on line of some model, she's complaining, he can't find the model release, and he's gonna go to court over it.

We keep copies on the premises, a copy off premises in two different locations, and our attorney has copies.

at cloud 9 content we also keep a copy of everything with our attorney and we back up all records on cd. If we were to die or our business was to burn down webmasters would still be able to get copies of our model releases.

fiveyes · 05-07-2003, 12:56 PM

A lot of nonsense and ignorant guessing being posted in this thread.

All of this is thoroughly covered at http://my.execpc.com/~xxxlaw/sec2257.html

freeadultcontent · 05-07-2003, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

Fuck it...That works for me.

Seriously.

I just have to.

AaronM, where is the fucking 2257 link huh?

Thats actual sexual material there, according to the law. Hmm do sigs need to be 2257 compliant?

Ok just being an ass. Continue fighting please it entertains me.

freeadultcontent · 05-07-2003, 03:17 PM

I still want debate on who is the producer during a exclusive shoot you pay a company to do that is several states away.

05-07-2003, 08:12 AM	#54
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	tony404 Stop coming up with reasonable arguments, they are not interested. They post on GFY so they must be straight up guys. Reality, they cannot give an address because they work from home. As for a phone number that would mean pissed off clients phoning them. Mine is +420 603 298 001 Phone me it's by my side. Plus my address is on my site. And at the moment the market is getting very soft, so who is to say every content supplier in it today will be in it tomorrow. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

05-07-2003, 08:31 AM	#55
Joesho want to get in shape Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: on the lake Posts: 12,329	My lawyer can beat up your lawyer... __________________ Got any domains to sell? I proudly host all my stuff at www.rackco.com

05-07-2003, 08:33 AM	#56
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 74,595	Wow, did I get blasted on this thread. Here's a though that all of your are missing....... What if I purchase content from "company x" and "company x" goes out of business and I have no current contact information to reach this company? When they come knocking on my door what am I going to say? Sorry, we purchased this content from "company x" and they are no longer in business, we cannot contact them, and thus we cannot provide 2257 information. Opps. To further complicate matters, what if this content was produced in another country? When they come knocking on my door I want to be able to hand them 2257 info for every photo I have on every website - This way there is no doubt and the matter is settled right there. Also - I said this earlier in this thread - When they do coming knocking on your door they are coming after you, and making you a target. They will use anything they can to take you down. __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

05-07-2003, 09:02 AM	#64
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Aaron, you're going under the assumption nothing unforseen ever happens. That buying from a rock solid, completely legal, US based company means for 100% certainty that company will be around in 4 or 7 or 10 years with the records. Unforseen things happen. The best of content producers could be gone at some future point in time without a trace. You're also assuming that everyone asking for docs is listing themselves as the custodian, when I doubt that is true. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

05-07-2003, 10:30 AM	#82
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	if Aaron is 100% right on all this, we as web publishers have absolutely no liability whatsoever for anything - we are free to buy content from whomever, no matter how shady - because according to Aaron it is up to the primary producer to be 2257 compliant, he lies, fails to be 2257 compliant, that's his problem, not his customers. Webmasters have no more responsibilty other than to point to the Custodian of Records. If the primary producer is a liar, fakes documentation for 15 year old models, doesn't keep records - it ain't the webmaster's fault. He's off the hook. Because that is all the law requires of a publisher. It does make sense, cuz it is IMPOSSIBLE for a webmaster/publisher to verify that the producer is doing business the right way according to the law. Even if we hired a private investigator to check out a producer, everything appeared to check out fine with regards to 2257, we have no way of ever knowing if he has faked documentation or he has been duped by an underage model. ok i'm sure added nothing new to this but i started typing and it's too fucking late to turn back now! __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

05-07-2003, 07:45 AM	#52
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	Two things first that is the law but webmasters are dealing with Mom pop companies for content providers. To make sure everything is valid is not a bad idea. I like your work AAron and respect your opinion but for all I know you could can be some guy in his mothers basement or some guy who shoots chicks for kicks and then sells it without them knowing. I mean if you are a real business why isnt there a contact phone number on your website? The net is a great mask and in legal matters its better to be safe then sorry. I buy content from you and in 4 years from the fed knock on my door looking for my records and one of models is yours. You are out of business ,I have no phone number for you, god knows where you are. I think the content provider disappeared defense is not going to work. From what I have seen on the board the last two months lots and lots of content specials at we lost our lease prices. I think the content business is going thru a rough time and that means some will disppear. Also whats the big deal to give people what they want. If content providers have such rough time providing these records. Buy a camera and learn to shoot your own content , its more exclusive and worth more to the consumer.

05-07-2003, 08:50 AM	#58
SoBeGirl Video So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Planet earth Posts: 2,493	RockHard, But when you show them those 2257 docs they have all the most impotant informatin blanked out. To an investigator,withouth that information, those docs could have just have been all fabricated on a PC with a graphics application. Yes or no? Talk about giving them some ammo to go after you with. Well that is a bomb right there. "Your honor, this guy has all these falsified documents claiming these girls are over 18" Would you just rather say, Look I bought these from producer X who is the custodian of records, Here is his or her info..Go after them.... And with that being the cast what good are they but a false sense or securiyt... So what is next? Webmasters will ask for the docs but they will want nothing blanked out. Where do we go from here? Answer that?

05-07-2003, 08:58 AM	#61
LeeNoga Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Egg & Sperm Mutation Posts: 3,043	Gawd, "Get a laywer, see a lawyer, talk to a laywer". Seeking legal counsel should be a line item in everyones budget, but thats never gonna happen. For some reason some folks see no risk in dealing in porn since we enjoyed the leniant Clinton years, and benign Bush years to date. Get model releases, place the USC 2257 statement on your site, and worry about what toy your going to buy next. Sheesh.

05-07-2003, 09:30 AM	#69
xxxdesign-net My hips don't lie Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 10,129	Just a wild idea here... Is there any laws to protect the models... I mean from the stalkers and weirdos!? If they like a girl on the net, the only thing they got to do is buy some content of her... and they'll get her real name, ss# and drivers license number.... in 10 min. They'll have her adress and phone# Do any of you guys mention that to the models? I mean that possibility? If one of your models get attack by a stalking fan... will she be able to sue you for not letting her know about giving away her IDs to maybe sick fuck!???

05-07-2003, 09:32 AM	#70
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	Larry Walters was in live chat yesterday for at least an hour answering any and all questions thrown at him about Protect (Amber Alert Bill) and 2257 requirements. Even if you think you know all of the answers, you should have gone. Twinkley from TheAdultWebmaster.com promised to have transcripts of that chat posted and available today if anyone's interested.

05-07-2003, 12:12 PM	#84
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	You content guys are confusing. I don't think anyone should buy content from anyone. Just promote hosted galleries! __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

05-07-2003, 12:56 PM	#91
fiveyes Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 1,680	A lot of nonsense and ignorant guessing being posted in this thread. All of this is thoroughly covered at http://my.execpc.com/~xxxlaw/sec2257.html __________________ <CENTER><A HREF="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/" target="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/images/hob-logosmall.jpg" border="0"></A> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" SIZE="-1"><I>Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Wet-T, Night Club Action, UpSkirt, Oil Wrestling, Voyeur</I></FONT></CENTER>

05-07-2003, 03:17 PM	#93
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	I still want debate on who is the producer during a exclusive shoot you pay a company to do that is several states away. __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites