This industry is fucked up

[gothweb]

I thought I would post this now, since I have had thoughts like this for a while, and for once they came to mind when I was totally calm.

This industry is fucked up. Here's some general thoughts that have been floating around in my black-dyed head. Discuss...

First, there's virtually no morality. I don't mean the fact that we're in porn. I know that. Naked people, filming sex, blah blah blah. What I mean is that people just don't *think* about right and wrong.

How often do you hear someone say that someone shouldn't complain about a moral issue because "we're all in porn anyhow"? Apparently, because we do some things that some people think are wrong, we don't need to be moral.

I know it is easy to think that since we're in a vice industry, we shouldn't bother. Well, I have an idea for you. Since we're in a vice industry, we need to try even harder to make sure we don't cross the line. We are much closer to the line, and it would be easy to do unconscionable things. Plus, if we don't show that we are capable of moral thought and restrained action, then we become what everyone says we are. We prove them right, and give the world more reason to put us out of business.

Or, since morality is a subject that is so foreign and upsetting to so many people on here (I know someone will call me a pussy, or holier-than-thou for even bringing it up)... I can talk about something a bit simpler... Business ethics.

Where the hell are the business ethics in this industry? Look at how much of what is done is informal, and off the books. Look at how much of ther industry is based on posturing, rather than being businesslike. How many people respond to disputes with insults or threats? It's nuts.

Sometimes, it feels like the wild west. (Especially when I was going through a certain dispute.) It doesn't matter what has been promised, what has been signed, what the law is, or what the right thing would be. Might makes right, and possession is 9/10 of the law.

Well, guess what? This is 2003, not the wild west, and not 1920s Chicago. Might doesn't make right, and we should be above it.

Thuggery, shaving, shell companies, offshore bullshit, hitbots, contact evasion, content theft, non-payment, transparent excuses... It goes on and on.

And that's just how we deal with eachother. How some adut business deal with their customers is even more insane.

Spam, "free trials", stealth cross-sales, popups everywhere, fake "niche" sites with bullshit member areas, sites thrown together with no knowledge of the subject, overzealous rebilling, blind links, unneccesary "eraser" software, illegal content, dubious content, it goes on and on.

Wouldn't you rather be at least a little proud of your job?

[- Jesus Christ -]

*FART*


*giggle*

[Fletch XXX]

tell us how you feel.

[Sly_RJ]

It bothers me how people always fail to realize that morality is subjective.

[LadyMischief]

What industry? :P

[Jakke PNG]

It wasn't me, it was the foreign guy.

[kmanrox]

way too long for me to read anymore than 1 sentence but I will preemtively concur with whatever it is you said =)

[Steve]

LOL

You should have worked for some of my "real world" jobs. I worked at one place where my job basically put three other companies out of business. Worked at another where this one guy made it his #1 priority to put US out of business (he succeeded, too - the slick mother fucker).

This isn't Woodstock - this is business. Expect the worst out of people, and you just might not get caught by surprise.

[Yo Adrian]

"Well, guess what? This is 2003, not the wild west, and not 1920s Chicago. Might doesn't make right, and we should be above it."

Amen!!!

[bogo]

Originally posted by gothweb


Wouldn't you rather be at least a little proud of your job?

im proud when my paychecks roll in

[tony286]

First, there's virtually no morality. I don't mean the fact that we're in porn. I know that. Naked people, filming sex, blah blah blah. What I mean is that people just don't *think* about right and wrong. How often do you hear someone say that someone shouldn't complain about a moral issue because "we're all in porn anyhow"? Apparently, because we do some things that some people think are wrong, we don't need to be moral.

I agree that is bullshit. If we all owned restaurants and one of us was poisoning their customers, creating a bad name for all of us in the restaurant business. Would people be saying you cant judge them your in the restaurant business too. I think alot of it all has to do with all the young people in this business, who are in love with the idea of bring a pimp or gangsta. This is the only business where people aspire to be a criminal who abuses women. Also most arent in for the long haul so they dont give a fuck. I think we who want to be in this industry for the long haul. Have to put pressure to police these things. I mean just because because there are sick motherfuckers out there that want to see twisted shit doesnt mean its ok to indulge them.

[FlyingIguana]

way too many cheaters out there and it includes some of the larger companies who simply don't give a shit about ripping people off. the ethics in the porn business are worse than it is in investment banking, and thats nothing to be proud of.

[UnseenWorld]

gothweb wrote:

...there's virtually no morality. I don't mean the fact that we're in porn. I know that. Naked people, filming sex, blah blah blah. What I mean is that people just don't *think* about right and wrong.

How often do you hear someone say that someone shouldn't complain about a moral issue because "we're all in porn anyhow"? Apparently, because we do some things that some people think are wrong, we don't need to be moral.

My reply is:

Dead on. People are in this industry who are bothered and feeling guilt and self-loathing over it. Get out or do what you're doing in a more acceptable way instead of abusing girls, cheating with blind links and redirects, and cutting deals you have no intention of keeping up.

gothweb wrote:

I know it is easy to think that since we're in a vice industry, we shouldn't bother. Well, I have an idea for you. Since we're in a vice industry, we need to try even harder to make sure we don't cross the line. We are much closer to the line, and it would be easy to do unconscionable things. Plus, if we don't show that we are capable of moral thought and restrained action, then we become what everyone says we are. We prove them right, and give the world more reason to put us out of business.

My reply is:

Too late. A lot of the webmasters are adolescents acting out...even if they are 40 years old. Think of how many people here brag about how much they make or that they could afford a Boxter or Jaguar or Corvette. Why the fuck should I give a shit? How juvenile!

gothweb wrote:

Or, since morality is a subject that is so foreign and upsetting to so many people on here (I know someone will call me a pussy, or holier-than-thou for even bringing it up)... I can talk about something a bit simpler... Business ethics.

Where the hell are the business ethics in this industry? Look at how much of what is done is informal, and off the books. Look at how much of ther industry is based on posturing, rather than being businesslike. How many people respond to disputes with insults or threats? It's nuts.

My reply is:

"Character is what one has when the lights go out."

gothweb wrote:

Sometimes, it feels like the wild west. (Especially when I was going through a certain dispute.) It doesn't matter what has been promised, what has been signed, what the law is, or what the right thing would be. Might makes right, and possession is 9/10 of the law.

My reply is:

Example: I help a guy who needs quick cash by buying a laptop which supposedly was a gift from his family and had a bill of sale. Where is the bill of sale? Now after helping the sucker out, he can't respond to any e-mail or chat, not even to tell me to fuck off and I'm starting to wonder where the laptop came from!

gothweb wrote:

Well, guess what? This is 2003, not the wild west, and not 1920s Chicago. Might doesn't make right, and we should be above it.

Thuggery, shaving, shell companies, offshore bullshit, hitbots, contact evasion, content theft, non-payment, transparent excuses... It goes on and on.

And that's just how we deal with eachother. How some adut business deal with their customers is even more insane.

My reply is:

If the government comes down on us hard (as the credit card companies have done and are doing), whose fault will it be? The honest people or the assholes? Well, knowing how the assholes think, once they trash this industry, they'll move on to another one.

gothweb wrote:

Spam, "free trials", stealth cross-sales, popups everywhere, fake "niche" sites with bullshit member areas, sites thrown together with no knowledge of the subject, overzealous rebilling, blind links, unneccesary "eraser" software, illegal content, dubious content, it goes on and on.

Wouldn't you rather be at least a little proud of your job?

My reply is:

Wouldn't it be nice to look in the mirror in the morning and see something worthwhile?
<P>

[rooster]

porn attracts short timers. A lot of the biggest crooks in online porn made their money by basically stealing in 96-99, and then got out.

The problem is porn never regulates itself. It stoops to all time new levels, and then complain when the govt steps in.

[Reak]

[tony286]

Originally posted by rooster
porn attracts short timers. A lot of the biggest crooks in online porn made their money by basically stealing in 96-99, and then got out.

The problem is porn never regulates itself. It stoops to all time new levels, and then complain when the govt steps in.

You are so right.

[T-Rav]

What other people do is very rarely a concern of mine. I am proud of the job that I do, and I do it very well. In my opinion it is important to surround yourself with good business people, that you can trust and learn from. Always keep an eye out for someone trying to pull one over on you.

Other people's ethics or morality is not something I give 2 shits about. I just make sure I live up to my own standards, and everything is fine. If I run into someone that I don't want to do business with or I don't agree with their business practices I simply don't do business with them. Its that simple. I would rather spend my time and energy finding people I do want to do business with and develop a mutually beneficial business relationship.

That is all.

[Lane]

it's a transition period (just like wild west or 1920's chicago).. look at all the attempts of controlling the cyberworld and all the laws coming out..

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by T-Rav
Other people's ethics or morality is not something I give 2 shits about.

Until you get unexpectedly fucked over, of course.

[Cassie]

Originally posted by Steve

This isn't Woodstock - this is business. Expect the worst out of people, and you just might not get caught by surprise.

very well said! all businesses are subject to morality and enron, mci and the like are prime examples. just because the white collar world doesn't show skin (or so we may think) doesn't mean they haven't crossed the line more times then those in the porn biz.

remember mike milken?

[Sarah_Jayne]

i came to the conclusion a long time ago that as long as I remaied legit, never cheated and treated my fellow webmasters with respect that I was never going to be rich. So, I have decided to remain honest and legit and scrape by. I guess like Tony said, I want to be in this for the long haul not just for a couple years until my parents kick me out of their basement.

Your points are all well thought out and well made and I suspect that deep down you know that the only ones of us that are going to take the time to read them and let them sink in are those of us who already agree.

[Jakke PNG]

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
i came to the conclusion a long time ago that as long as I remaied legit, never cheated and treated my fellow webmasters with respect that I was never going to be rich.

Why?

[Cassie]

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
i came to the conclusion a long time ago that as long as I remaied legit, never cheated and treated my fellow webmasters with respect that I was never going to be rich. So, I have decided to remain honest and legit and scrape by. I guess like Tony said, I want to be in this for the long haul not just for a couple years until my parents kick me out of their basement.

Your points are all well thought out and well made and I suspect that deep down you know that the only ones of us that are going to take the time to read them and let them sink in are those of us who already agree.

you can make money by being honest! no one can ever fault honesty even if it is something he/she may not want to hear. what being honest will get you is respect and with respect comes a whole slew of things; money being one of them!

[angelsofporn]

it's the result of the anonymity of this biz..you can hide behind a computer and never have to face anyone or the consequences...if all adult webmasters were forcd to live in a small village on a tiny island somewhere there wouldnt be any of this...thats why these boards help a little..not much though...at least we can exchange names and expose scammers a little

[Sarah_Jayne]

fair question from TGF and good point by Cassie - well I am not talking about being dirt poor (anymore, thank god)...more, it I guess atleast earlier on in working in this indsutry when I was doing tgp reviews and the like it seemed like the people that were making money - again I will use the TGP example because that is how I started in this industry - were the ones breaking rules and submitting under more than one name, etc. Okay, fairly minor stuff, I know but it just felt that if I stayed within the rules I wasn't going to be one of the big players. I would rather be proud of the money I earn, to earn it honestly and to not worry about being 'found out' all the time.

[Sarah_Jayne]

Originally posted by angelsofporn
it's the result of the anonymity of this biz..you can hide behind a computer and never have to face anyone or the consequences...

exactly, and also it allows a lot people to forget this is an industry - this is a job - and therefore forget that they should be conducting themselves with a level of professionalism.

[Jakke PNG]

Originally posted by angelsofporn
it's the result of the anonymity of this biz..you can hide behind a computer and never have to face anyone or the consequences...

This is true. Yet, cannot be applied to all. Not all anonymous webmasters are evil, and there is a shitload of people who are not anonymous, or don't even try. (like myself). I prefer to have one nick, use my real name where needed etc. While that has no apparent advantage, but sofar no disadvantages either. I hope I don't fuck up.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by angelsofporn
it's the result of the anonymity of this biz..you can hide behind a computer and never have to face anyone or the consequences

One thing you can do is report every WHOIS with bogus contact info to ICANN via this link

[tony286]

Originally posted by T-Rav
What other people do is very rarely a concern of mine. I am proud of the job that I do, and I do it very well. In my opinion it is important to surround yourself with good business people, that you can trust and learn from. Always keep an eye out for someone trying to pull one over on you.

Other people's ethics or morality is not something I give 2 shits about. I just make sure I live up to my own standards, and everything is fine. If I run into someone that I don't want to do business with or I don't agree with their business practices I simply don't do business with them. Its that simple. I would rather spend my time and energy finding people I do want to do business with and develop a mutually beneficial business relationship.

That is all.

What others do should concern you because what they do affects credit card processing and the laws that can be pushed to close us down. Sorry we have to get concerned what the fuck others are doing if you like being in this business, its the simple truth.

[T-Rav]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld



Until you get unexpectedly fucked over, of course.

Not true, I've been unexpectedly fucked over before. Giving a shit about other people's morality or ethics isn't going to keep it from happening. It will happen no matter what. You can make good choices and pay close attention to who you work with, to minimize the risk of being fucked over.

Running around trying to talk people into thinking the way you do, is in my opinion a waste of time. I believe it is best to "take care of your own backyard", and let other people take care of theirs.

[detoxed]

swoit

[Cassie]

Originally posted by T-Rav


Not true, I've been unexpectedly fucked over before. Giving a shit about other people's morality or ethics isn't going to keep it from happening. It will happen no matter what. You can make good choices and pay close attention to who you work with, to minimize the risk of being fucked over.

Running around trying to talk people into thinking the way you do, is in my opinion a waste of time. I believe it is best to "take care of your own backyard", and let other people take care of theirs.

you just made a point that affects all of us. by taking care of your own you are indirectly taking care of others and exposing who to deal with and who not to deal with. i personally work in a very close-nit environment where we only really deal with each other and outsiders are just that. everything gets discussed and evaluated internally before a decision is made. sometimes even bathroom decisions are made as a group

seriously though, if we watch out for ourselves, others will do the same for themselves and in the end, we become a stonger business as a whole!

[Rip]

www.moral-pornwebmasters.com

[cherrylula]

Just this industry?

In my experience it seems just about every money making industry is corrupt to some degree and has its fucking losers and cheaters.

I used to make a killing on ebay years ago too, but gave it up because of the fucking lying cheating scumbags I had to deal with.

At least we have a fat profit margin in adult.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
It bothers me how people always fail to realize that morality is subjective.

I tend to be a Realist about almost everything. As such, I doubt that morality is actually wholly subjetive. I do, however, accept that *if* there is an absolute morality, it would be hard to prove.

As such, I try to talk and think about morality as a subjective thing. I think in this post I have done that. I don't expect everyone to have the same morality, but I disapprove of those who don't bother to think about moral questions at all, or apply some moral standard to their actions. I also disapprove of people whose morality is much laxer than mine, though I admit that's pretty much an opinion-only statement.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Steve
LOL

Expect the worst out of people, and you just might not get caught by surprise.

Ask more of people, and maybe they won't sink so low.

[CDSmith]

Originally posted by T-Rav
What other people do is very rarely a concern of mine. I am proud of the job that I do, and I do it very well. In my opinion it is important to surround yourself with good business people, that you can trust and learn from. Always keep an eye out for someone trying to pull one over on you.

Exactly right.


Not much else to add to that. I've tried to be a straight shooter from the beginning. Better to set a standard of your own and lead by example I always say. Business owners/bosses who do this are always more successful than those that crack the whip or reign down grief on everyone around them. Always. Happier too.

[tony286]

if we watch out for ourselves, others will do the same for themselves and in the end, we become a stonger business as a whole!

This sounds nice but it doesnt work, I am assuming you are like us and do the right thing, run your business honestly but only concerning yourself with yourself. Will doom our industry, we have to police oursleves like that site that strangles girls a bunch of webmasters complained to the third party processor and they were dropped. What others do affects you, ignoring and saying not my job will bring the end to being a adult webmaster in the USA alot faster.

[BigFrog]

i prefer the 'wild west'

scalp whitey

[Cassie]

Originally posted by tony404



This sounds nice but it doesnt work, I am assuming you are like us and do the right thing, run your business honestly but only concerning yourself with yourself. Will doom our industry, we have to police oursleves like that site that strangles girls a bunch of webmasters complained to the third party processor and they were dropped. What others do affects you, ignoring and saying not my job will bring the end to being a adult webmaster in the USA alot faster.

i think you may have misinterpreted what i meant. by watching out for ourselves (meaning you for you and me for me) we become more aware. those who do not care will be weeded out and eventually fail. those who think they are too big to be touched and think their money will get them out of trouble, will learn (or have already learned) that it isn't so. therefore, by watching out for ourselves, others will take notice and either do the right thing, or not and for those who decide the latter, they are in for a whirlwind.

in the end, we will win because of the scrutiny we put upon ourselves and by setting an example.

[delia]

I just loove this kind of thread, i find it fascinating how you guys feel about the industry.

[<IMX>]

Gothweb---

I think somebody said it before, you would be well served to look at MOST industries that are competitive and money is made. Lack of morality, ethics good business practices etc... is not unique to the porn industry by any means.

Try fucking stock brokers, real estate agents, car salesman, investment bankers if you want to see childish, egotistical fucks with no morals, etihics or concern for their clients.

You can take away the adult specific comments and make it about any industry or profession.

Relax you will live longer.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by gothweb


I tend to be a Realist about almost everything. As such, I doubt that morality is actually wholly subjetive. I do, however, accept that *if* there is an absolute morality, it would be hard to prove.

As such, I try to talk and think about morality as a subjective thing. I think in this post I have done that. I don't expect everyone to have the same morality, but I disapprove of those who don't bother to think about moral questions at all, or apply some moral standard to their actions. I also disapprove of people whose morality is much laxer than mine, though I admit that's pretty much an opinion-only statement.

Ethics makes no sense without absolutes. Somehow, we know it's wrong (and not just a "cultural thing") to put out a cigar in a baby's eye and we would know that any "culture" which sanctioned that sort of thing was horrid without hiding behind the idea that it's just our view.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by <IMX>
Gothweb---

I think somebody said it before, you would be well served to look at MOST industries that are competitive and money is made. Lack of morality, ethics good business practices etc... is not unique to the porn industry by any means.

Try fucking stock brokers, real estate agents, car salesman, investment bankers if you want to see childish, egotistical fucks with no morals, etihics or concern for their clients.

You can take away the adult specific comments and make it about any industry or profession.

Relax you will live longer.

And how would such a situation in ANY industry be improved by relaxing?

[NastyJack]

Can't afford morals but I'll be sure to buy some once I brake even!

Thanks for the heads up!

[gothweb]

Originally posted by <IMX>
Gothweb---

I think somebody said it before, you would be well served to look at MOST industries that are competitive and money is made. Lack of morality, ethics good business practices etc... is not unique to the porn industry by any means.

Try fucking stock brokers, real estate agents, car salesman, investment bankers if you want to see childish, egotistical fucks with no morals, etihics or concern for their clients.

You can take away the adult specific comments and make it about any industry or profession.

Relax you will live longer.

I do not accept any argument that says "evil is everywhere, so don't be good". That's the whole point of my initial post.

Here's a scary idea. I see a problem. I would be a hippocrite not to do *anything* to remedy it.

[<IMX>]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld



And how would such a situation in ANY industry be improved by relaxing?

If it isn't immediately obvious to you, then I feel for you. Everything improves if you relax and decide to either do something about it or STFU. Endless whining about the same topics is ridiculous. If it bothers you that much "resign" from GFY, or the adult industry entirely, and find something that is more suitable to your disposition.

My point was extremely simple: if there is money to be made, you are bound to be disappointed in the ethics of your peers.

That's like me endless complaining about what bothers me about GFY, or the adult industry, or America in general (racism, misogyny, ethics, biz practices etc.). Nobody else gives two shits, with the exception of the people it directly effects.

So, do I sit back and whine incessantly about it?

Nope, I relax do my thing, hedge my biz relationships based on my own observations and network directly with those who these problems effect.

I do not accept any argument that says "evil is everywhere, so don't be good". That's the whole point of my initial post.

Here's a scary idea. I see a problem. I would be a hippocrite not to do *anything* to remedy it.

I never said don't do anything, I said "Relax, you will live longer."
Injustice and immorality are everywhere, and everyone is consumed with their myopic struggle for their personal "crusade" against evil-doers. LOL.

I guess it helps people feel more righteous about their own behaviour.

But, let's fucking be honest, you aren't doing shit to remedy this specific situation at hand and realistically, you are in no position to.

So, go on your personal crusade, until you've had enough.
Then start posting on beer and tits again.

(challenge )

[Easton]

my morality is bound purely by legality...

as long as it's totally 100% legal, then who cares?

[gothweb]

Your post just makes me sad. It's really that simple. Myopic, impotent, and misguided.

It is possible to make a difference. There is more than I can do than whining, and even if I don't change the world, that doesn't mean I can't at least set a good example.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Easton
my morality is bound purely by legality...

as long as it's totally 100% legal, then who cares?

People with more to their morals than fear of getting caught. There are plenty of us.