Porn stars obselete?

[AOLGuy]

Kelly Steele wrote a good piece on AVN about most content producers not only want to work with new talent because they are fresh with zero previous exposure, but they can also pay them less given their inexperience.

She further mentions that for some, the goal is to make the experience overall an unpleasant one, and get the girl to do everything on camera that is possible.

That way, not only did they get extreme hardcore action on the cheap, but they gave themselves a virtual lock on an exclusive to the girl.

Surely she will not be shooting for any of the other So. Cal websites or video companies after you shoot rough oral, anal, dp, creampies, and regurgitation facials.

(not that there is anything wrong with those acts - if it is all agreed upon before hand, etc).

My thoughts:

Given the recession which could be slide into a full on depression, economic hardships will be driving an unprecedented amount of "talent" into this business.

The standard rates are set by what girls ask for, and a lot of the smaller operations are thrilled when they can get a girl for $150-$200 for solo posing, let alone anything more.

I have worked with established girls and newcomers, and I typically pay the new ones more, especially if I sense it is a one-time thing.

I have met a lot of girls in financial hardship who can't find work, and are thrilled to go do a site like BangBus or BigNaturals for $1000-$3000, because that money will make a lot of immediate problems go away.

My guess is that if things continue to go as they have been in the US, there will be a lot of one-timers out there who need a lump sum--though I don't see many of them doing things for less than $300. But you never know how far desperation can drive someone.

The crazier idea is how many of these girls will want to get into porn as a career, thinking they can make a solid living on the talent end--this as I see girls I know who were doing solo posing or boy-girl a few months ago now resorting to escort work because they can't get modelling work with their image on myriad other sites.

Combine the above factors, with even the admission by the nicest people in the business that it isn't smart business to shoot a girl who is on a host of other sites. Then you see this cycle that is becoming clear.

Of any girls getting into the business, a handful will become Vivid girls. The rest will do a few shoots before they lose work to the new girls coming into this. The middle ground of less popular porn stars will be gone.

I don't mean to paint such a bleak future for the female models out there, but it seems like the reality. I am getting emails from models I've worked with, and some who I've spoken to, and they are all hurting for cash.

On the upside, I would love to see a website like AdultStaffing or the like with a more mainstream appeal to facilitate the inquiries of the curious who want to look further into modelling.

Of course, one could also argue that with more desperation comes less chance of flakiness. LOL

In all seriousness, I do not think this cycle can be changed. I am not even sure what my stance on it is--obviously, there are many aspects that are wrong, but no one puts a gun to a girl's head (a new reality site, perhaps? Dirty, I'm tossing this one out there for ya... just kidding).

I think what is unfortunate is that a lot of the girl's assume and do not know any better. Alas, that is par for the course with many things today.

Business is fine on my end, so I guess I will just keep stockpiling money to fund shoots well into the looming depression. I don't care how bad things get--a guy will always fork over money to see a real girl getting naked. Since I work in the AVS arena with my multi-girl site, I am VERY optimistic that things will remain cool for my business.

[Pete]

Way too much to read.

[ry0t]

I'd have to agree except who came up with the figure $1000 to $3000 for sites like Bangbus? I will pay the woman who will do my sites $600 to $1000 and they do it. Also they are the same type of woman it's not like Im paying them less because they are ugly or something. On another note I'd have to say I agree porn stars are becoming obsolete on the internet. Unless of course you have a pornstar site.

[AOLGuy]

try writing it!

I'd be amused to read a cliff-notes version if anyone cares to summarize my elaborated thoughts.

[AOLGuy]

I know a girl who got offered $3000 to shoot with BigNaturals about 2 months ago. And she is not the typical porno girl stereotype.

I have seen rates all over the place. When I was just doing okay, I never paid more than $250 for anything. I passed if it went higher.

I've been on an upswing, and now pay more because it isn't a huge deal to kick the talent more money. I will say one thing though--it ensures they will show up.

With the $$ that the bigger sites are making, I doubt that $3k puts a dent in their bottom line.

Plus, if they are booking air travel and some sort of crew, that type of money ENSURES the girl gets there without flaking.

[AOLGuy]

Internet or not--I think that you will always have a half-dozen girls at the Jenna Jameson level.

But everything else is already getting so overcrowded with talent that you are not seeing the long list of B and C level porn girls you did in the early 90s.

That "turn 'em out" mentality doesn't just apply to websites--look at any of the videos out there that are not film-like or story-driven. The "gonzo" style evolved into the web reality style and is now virtually indistinguishable on most videos.

It seems to be the same game of "what can we get this girl to do?" A lot of times, once you see the girl do that really extreme scene, that is their last credit. And some girls go all the way with it on their very first scene...

[nxventures]

Way too much to read.

Lazy fuck... no wonder you will never amount to anything. . Go back and get your GED!

Interesting article overall -- economically I don't think any small decline in the market will affect our business in any way other than giving you the chance to get cuter girls willing to do more for less... so just sit back and enjoy.

(the forum is go fuck yourself, and you can't use the c word? wtf.)

[Mr.Fiction]

Interesting thread.

[Sarah_Jayne]

attention spans - or lack thereof - amaze me.

Very interestig topic that I have given a little bit of thought to recently. Also, if you do a lot of niche work like I do then you may notice the rise of 'stars' within a niche. In the past maybe these models never would have made it to the screen but because of the the ability for people to create there own porn universe on the 'net they are becoming famous within that niche.

Take BBW for example - I can roll a couple names off the top of my head of models that I am sure the majority of you haven't heard of but that within that niche are near superstars. Tony404's lovely wife is one of them. They have reached this level of popularity and profitibility without the huge bucks backing them.

I suppose there will still be the market for super glossy ultra fantasy types but really people are able to find their own 'prefect' pornstar on the 'net and often interact with them. I know for the surfers I talked to when I had my own site that part of the excitment was that I would sometimes talk back to them - via message board, email, etc. Once they knew that kind of world existed the vhs hotties didn't hold as much of a thrill for them.

[TheJimmy]

looming depression?

where is 12clicks...

is the sky falling?

[AOLGuy]

Here is an interesting angle that ties into this, and responds to the point about BBW stars.

A girl can't be a "star" if you degrade her on film. By degrade, I am going to say that the definition for this industry would be if the girl is unwillingly submissive and in a position that looks beyond her control, where the purpose is to push her in some un-enjoyable fashion or embarass her.

The girls like Jenna who are well-known never did a gangbang or half the edgier stuff out there.

Given the trends we currently have going, there may be a few girls who are sought after or have guys want to see more of their stuff. But there are no "stars."

I think that term reflects ego, and after a shoot with MaxHardcore, BangBus, Her First Gangbang, Dirtys Dicksuckers, or even one of my websites etc. - I doubt they will be flaunting it to attain status.

I also think there may be a male mentality that goes in line with this:

I remember seeing girls in the early 90s who I would first see in a boy-girl scene. Then it was a big deal if they did an anal scene, and even more so to watch them in a DP. Eventually, they would do a gangbang or some really extreme title. Then, it just wasn't as interesting to watch them in a movie anymore.

Their careers evolved through want and desire to see them do more. Once they did, they seemed a bit "used," and only maintained longevity if they had a long career before crossing a line.

Now, if a girl gets into this and immediately gets put through the paces of hard-line sexuality, she will probably not have any sort of career.

I am talking response from porn fans in these cases--but it falls in line with the industry as well.

Seeing as both groups are males, I think there is something to be said for the idea of a sexual pedestal complex amongst most men:

Most girls are interesting when "proper" and their sexuality is a mystery. When they hint at their sexuality, it is alluring. When you see it, it is intoxicating. When you explore it in its fullest and push it, it is a rush. And afterwards, they seem undesirable... not to mention awkward.


I will admit that I am fully guilty of that at times in both my personal and professional life.

I think it not only applies to this business, but many other male-female situations as well--like when a guy doesn't call after a one night stand.

[tony286]

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
attention spans - or lack thereof - amaze me.

Very interestig topic that I have given a little bit of thought to recently. Also, if you do a lot of niche work like I do then you may notice the rise of 'stars' within a niche. In the past maybe these models never would have made it to the screen but because of the the ability for people to create there own porn universe on the 'net they are becoming famous within that niche.

Take BBW for example - I can roll a couple names off the top of my head of models that I am sure the majority of you haven't heard of but that within that niche are near superstars. Tony404's lovely wife is one of them. They have reached this level of popularity and profitibility without the huge bucks backing them.

I suppose there will still be the market for super glossy ultra fantasy types but really people are able to find their own 'prefect' pornstar on the 'net and often interact with them. I know for the surfers I talked to when I had my own site that part of the excitment was that I would sometimes talk back to them - via message board, email, etc. Once they knew that kind of world existed the vhs hotties didn't hold as much of a thrill for them.

First Thank you very much my wife has the flu and you made her smile. I agree with those who do too much too soon. We are one of the more expensive bbw amatuer sites, we show no boy /girl hardcore and 80% stay at least two months. There is still mystery there and I think they bond to her more that there is mystery.Also I dont see the economy of paying a girl who is not the focus of a site $3000, I know those big sites do well but I wonder if anyone ever sat down and figured out the ROI . Also if you are paying a model that kind of money upfront with no experience where do you go from there? I sent a girl to Score and they shot boy girl with her for a eight hour day. They paid her $1200 and I think that is a fair rate for a days work doing hardcore.

[slavdogg]

how about gonzo pornstars site ??

http://videostars.com/

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by slavdogg
how about gonzo pornstars site ??

http://videostars.com/

Heh. I especially liked the FULL SCREEN pop-up.

WTF?

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by tony404



First Thank you very much my wife has the flu and you made her smile. I agree with those who do too much too soon. We are one of the more expensive bbw amatuer sites, we show no boy /girl hardcore and 80% stay at least two months. There is still mystery there and I think they bond to her more that there is mystery.Also I dont see the economy of paying a girl who is not the focus of a site $3000, I know those big sites do well but I wonder if anyone ever sat down and figured out the ROI . Also if you are paying a model that kind of money upfront with no experience where do you go from there? I sent a girl to Score and they shot boy girl with her for a eight hour day. They paid her $1200 and I think that is a fair rate for a days work doing hardcore.

I think that most sites are making a pretty good ROI. And with a site like BangBus, if you need to schedule all of that, it is worth offering the girl more to get her to show up.

I also think these sites are probably better when it comes to how they treat the girls--they have A LOT to lose, and therefore have a rep for explaining things ahead of time and making sure it is all clear. No one is surprised during a shoot.

What is great about this business is the same thing that sucks about it: just about anyone can do it.

The real problems lie with the one-man operations and small-time production companies who do not have much to lose and will pressure or sway a girl into doing what they feel they need to in order to get marketable content.

I am a one-man operation, and I fully understand the skepticism many models have towards small companies.

[Halcyon]

VERY interesting idea about degradation and "star" status. There seems to be a few women who cross the line into "empowered-super-depraved-slut." But the majority get used up.

Can you be a star after you've been fish-hooked?

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by Halcyon
Can you be a star after you've been fish-hooked?

I will wait for one of the HFGB guys to post a pic.

But I am gonna go with a confident "no" on that one. LOL

[AOLGuy]

Greg Giraldo had a great quote on Colin Quinn's Comedy Central show last week, regarding porn:

"It's human nature to want to push the envelope of what we are capable of--how fast we can run, like the four minute mile... how far into space we can explore...

...how many loads an emotionally unstable girl can hold in her mouth."

[tony286]

I think that most sites are making a pretty good ROI.

How do you know that? When you consider most of their traffic comes from affilates so they are seeing alot less then half. Alot of money flows thru them but it would be interesting to see. If you are paying a girl $3000 that means with paying $30 for a membership over 200 people would have to join just to break even on her (thats considering more than half of the $30 goes to affilates and fees). Thats not figuring salaries,rent, bandwidth and all the other expenses. I am not saying it doesnt happen but I cant see how that model makes a profit in the long run. Also I feel if I have to pay a model a ton of money just to show up, would rather not use her but thats me. I am lucky my main model is my wife and if she doesnt show up for a shoot I have much bigger problems lol.

[barryf]

Porn customers can be divided into (at least) two categories:
1. The people who fall for a particular star and only want to see her
2. The people who get bored easily and want to see a different girl every time

The first group is your market for "porn star" content, and the second is your market for "fresh meat" content. Most people actually probably like a little of each. But my point is that because of the first group, porn stars will never be obsolete.

B

[Rochard]

This is not hollywood. This entire industry is based on averages. You can get 200 people to sign up for a site where you paid a fameous pornstar $3k, but you can 200 people to sign up for a site where you paid a model $100.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Halcyon

Can you be a star after you've been fish-hooked?

WHat is fish hooked ???

[models]

Originally posted by RocHard
This is not hollywood. This entire industry is based on averages. You can get 200 people to sign up for a site where you paid a fameous pornstar $3k, but you can 200 people to sign up for a site where you paid a model $100.

well said.

and AKFK some very astute observations here.

[AOLGuy]

I am not talking about "Joe Average's" affiliate program.

If you think about the numbers you send BangBus, BigNaturals, or any of those larger sites, they are rather profitable.

Do you think any would offer $35 signups if they didn't retain the average surfer for double that profit margin?

$3000 for talent for them, plus other shoot expenses, probably keep them at $5-8000 total per shoot. Maybe less.

Each site needs a new segment every two weeks or so.

I know what type of signups I send them, and I would be shocked if I were even in the top 500 affiliates.

It takes money to make money, but the big operations ultimately are out to profit. If they didn't, they wouldn't still be here.

I only hope to gross as much each month--were that the case, I would be more than happy to pay top price to keep things going smoothly.

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by barryf
Porn customers can be divided into (at least) two categories:
1. The people who fall for a particular star and only want to see her
2. The people who get bored easily and want to see a different girl every time

The first group is your market for "porn star" content, and the second is your market for "fresh meat" content. Most people actually probably like a little of each. But my point is that because of the first group, porn stars will never be obsolete.

B

This industry probably has the least priority for building "stars."

It's like the situation with the music business, only worse--make what you can with the product now. It isn't about building anyone's careers. And now that an entire generation of girls has grown up thinking porn is "cool," there are more willing to do it than ever before.

Ten years ago, a new girl in the business would shoot for a few people, develop a following, and work her way to higher profile adult videos. Some made kink and dirty sex their specialty.

Now, most every girl I see coming into this business in So. Cal is shooting with some pretty edgy companies. Your average porn consumer may lust after a girl who does gagging and gangbangs, but I don't think they acquire the same loyalty that the Ginger Lynn's, Brittany O'Connell's, and Jenna Jameson's have had.

Statistically, I think if you look at any "star," most jumped the shark around their first DP or gangbang. The smarter ones held out for the right price, and in most cases, they never did much after that. In the mid-90's, it was a huge deal to get one of the bigger names and have them in gangbang video or doing something dirty for the first time on camera. And it cost a pretty penny.

For better or worse, many producers push to take it further with new girls from their first scene. No demand is built up, so the price is relatively low--and most figure "hey, what do these girls know about the going rate for anal or creampie scenes?"

"Fresh meat" is winning--the overhead is lower. It is no different than any other industry. Porn has become like fast food--sell as much as possible while keeping the costs low. McDonald's workers would have an easier time forming an effective union than girls in this business would. And while I find it sad to say, many operations have as much respect for their workers as the fast food industry does for slaughterhouse cows--fittingly, many naive girls have that same stunned, frightened look. LOL.

I think Vivid will continue its hold, and an elite A-list may emerge. But if you were to look at the numbers and odds, your chances would be higher entering the legitimate acting world or pursuing a music career.

The porn A-list will be like the World Wrestling Entertainment -- there are slots for a handful of megastars and a half-dozen potential megastars. If the potential ones don't catch on or the megastars can't hold their popularity, they're out.

In wrestling, with no WCW, ECW, or competing franchises, it's back to the minor leagues...

With porn, the same thing has happened where you will have a few "stars" who rise in each niche, and the rest who fall into the vast wasteland. There is too much clutter to support a healthy in-between for those who are in front of the camera and quickly lose marketable worth.

[Sarah_Jayne]

Originally posted by tony404



First Thank you very much my wife has the flu and you made her smile.

My honest pleasure...hope she is better soon.

[foolio]

Originally posted by Pete
Way too much to read.

I agree. I got lost after the first line.

[Rochard]

It takes money to make money..... to a degree. But if you can shoot for a site like Lightspeed Sorority, spend $3k a month on content, make $100k a month off the site, and not have to worry about pleasing some porn diva....... It's much easier.

We pay our girls $100+ an hour. This is a lot of money to be paying a 21 year old woman; Most college graduates don't make this much. When I was 21 years old I was making $100 a day. If I was making $100 an hour I'd be in a very different place today.

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by RocHard
It takes money to make money..... to a degree. But if you can shoot for a site like Lightspeed Sorority, spend $3k a month on content, make $100k a month off the site, and not have to worry about pleasing some porn diva....... It's much easier.

We pay our girls $100+ an hour. This is a lot of money to be paying a 21 year old woman; Most college graduates don't make this much. When I was 21 years old I was making $100 a day. If I was making $100 an hour I'd be in a very different place today.

Sigh - I never did hear back to the questions I sent in about putting a site of mine under the Lightspeed umbrella...

I so need to get on an affiliate program and maximize my content.

[AOLGuy]

On the subject of "stars."

I had an online conversation with a girl I shot today.

I was looking to shoot her again and offered to bump her pay rate.

She had a LIST of demands -- she wants to be notified when pics go up, she wants to choose her stage name. AND, get this, she says "I don't want to shoot pics that are as hardcore this time."

Whether or not there is already an audience for her pics or not is irrelevant. I can get 2 hotter girls who are brand new for the same money, who won't be as stressful to shoot.

I am going to try to work things out with her--if not, "fresh meat."

[tony286]

Originally posted by AKFK
On the subject of "stars."

I had an online conversation with a girl I shot today.

I was looking to shoot her again and offered to bump her pay rate.

She had a LIST of demands -- she wants to be notified when pics go up, she wants to choose her stage name. AND, get this, she says "I don't want to shoot pics that are as hardcore this time."

Whether or not there is already an audience for her pics or not is irrelevant. I can get 2 hotter girls who are brand new for the same money, who won't be as stressful to shoot.

I am going to try to work things out with her--if not, "fresh meat."

First off why did you offer to bump her rate, why not pay her the same amount. By offering to bump her rate makes her think she of great value to you and then come the demands. Its best to be very matter a fact. Keep a poker face. Throwing money at them to me doesnt breed loyality. Especially throwing it at a girl who can only make about $6-8 a hr in the real world, $100 a hour is a very fair price.

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by tony404

First off why did you offer to bump her rate, why not pay her the same amount. By offering to bump her rate makes her think she of great value to you and then come the demands. Its best to be very matter a fact. Keep a poker face. Throwing money at them to me doesnt breed loyality. Especially throwing it at a girl who can only make about $6-8 a hr in the real world, $100 a hour is a very fair price.

If I have already shot someone before, I will usually offer more money the second time if they are not shooting with any other sites--I typically use it as an incentive to do the shoot sometime soon because I am near the tail end of photos I have taken of them and there is a demand.

I don't tell them this. It is worth a bit more to ensure they show up and not play a back and forth game of scheduling tag to lock a date.

Ironically, a model friend of mine suggested I book the shoot, and if the girl balks at anything too explicit to just cut it short... note, my model thread has not read this thread. I understand that the common reaction is to cut through someone's bullshit--but some in this biz take it to a very high level to get what they want.

[tony286]

but some in this biz take it to a very high level to get what they want.

What does that mean? Do you think paying lots of money = high level no its equals spending lots of money. Here's suggestion why not take a plain girl and use your skills as a photographer to make her hot. If you dont have those skills I dont know you then upgrade your skills. I did, I am constantly learning and believe me throwing away your money isnt the answer. Also are your shoots fun and so miserable that the only way someone will come back is if you pay them more. If I can get them to show up once I got them because here its fun fun to shoot with me. We laugh for most of the shoot . I am not attacking you, these are just suggestions. I have gotten girls to shoot that my fellow photgs paid 4x per hour as I did and I am not slick but I know in a slow economy the person with the checkbook rules. If the girl thinks you are weak she will take advantage. I tell a girl my rate, she doesnt tell me hers and then if she says its too low I say thats cool but keep my number and when my rate beats sitting home watching tv call me.

[Mutt]

Ox/Nasty pay girls above the average but not the 3 grand you think they are paying. 2 grand. Total cost of their shoots are 3-3,500 range.

The industry is now in two camps - the gonzo porn makers like Anabolic and Redlight and the old guard feature porn makers like VIVID and Wicked. The girls who want to be 'stars' gravitate to the feature producers, the girls who want to make alot of money fast go for the gonzo and Internet shoots. Girls are in demand, they can shoot for 3 different gonzo and Internet companies in one day, earn $2,500-3,000. Or she can go shoot a feature video for somebody like Wicked or Hustler and get $800-1,000 for a full day.

You're right that many of the extreme gonzo guys don't care what happens to the new girls, in fact, they'd much rather the girl
get so turned off the biz after her shoot they never shoot another vid again, then they can say they have her first and only scene.

[AOLGuy]

Originally posted by tony404


What does that mean? Do you think paying lots of money = high level no its equals spending lots of money. Here's suggestion why not take a plain girl and use your skills as a photographer to make her hot. If you dont have those skills I dont know you then upgrade your skills. I did, I am constantly learning and believe me throwing away your money isnt the answer. Also are your shoots fun and so miserable that the only way someone will come back is if you pay them more. If I can get them to show up once I got them because here its fun fun to shoot with me. We laugh for most of the shoot . I am not attacking you, these are just suggestions. I have gotten girls to shoot that my fellow photgs paid 4x per hour as I did and I am not slick but I know in a slow economy the person with the checkbook rules. If the girl thinks you are weak she will take advantage. I tell a girl my rate, she doesnt tell me hers and then if she says its too low I say thats cool but keep my number and when my rate beats sitting home watching tv call me.

Heh.

I meant that some in the biz take the "cut through someone's bullshit" stuff to a really high level. Like if a girl is wishy-washy or uncooperative to either push her to do what you want her to or cancel the shoot altogether, give her gas money, and send her home.

In other words, the "fuck or walk" approach.

I totally understand what you are saying. My shoots are fun. Most every model I have shot has enjoyed working with me.

When I started out, I could get full solo posing shoots for $120-$200 for 2-3 hours, and was shocked at how many girls felt comfortable and would offer to shoot an additional oral set (or more) for little or sometimes no extra cash incentive.

If anything, my prep and spending itme on the phone with a model always made her comfortable, but the flake factor seemed industry average. In fact, it might be easier to flake on a "nice" guy.

Now that I can afford it, I pay a bit better than when I started. Especially if I think the girl is a one-timer and has the right look for my content.

Personally, I prefer to shoot average and cute girls... no porn stereotypes here. I get natural smiles and laughs, and it most always goes well. I probably put more effort into my model relations than neccessary, since many seem to move on out of this biz.

Per one of your comments, there are a lot of ugly girls out there that no technique can help for more than a handful of "glamour shots" type pics.

I can show you some that no one could have made better looking for a set of pics or videos. In fact, the one decent pic they had is the one they sent in to book the gig. In person it was a HARSH reality.

[models]

if you can take an "average" girl and photograph her in a way that makes her beautiful she tells her friends that you are a magician and brings you lots of new models.

i have never paid a girl more than 500 for a shoot (including some video) and my standard pay is 400 for girls and 200 for guys. i give girls 100 bonus for anal. girls only fuck their boyfriends or husbands when they work for me. 75% of my stuff is girl/girl.

and i'll run out of money before i run out of models.

and that's LA. and outside of USA it's much cheaper.

the prima donnas do not necessarily make you more money, and i've paid cab fare for a few babes that showed up with the wrong attitude. (more than a few)

give me an average girl about 24-25 years old, with some intelligence, with the right attitude, a good body, and a good complexion, and let me spend 2 hours telling her she's hot and beautiful. i won't even need to touch her and her pussy will drool while i shoot her. create an environment where the model feels safe and talk to her right and see how easy it is.

[AOLGuy]

mmm. drooling pussy.

heh.

you could be onto something:

I just watched the Primetime Thursday with Belladonna - apparently compliments mixed with a sense of love and acceptance are all you need to get a gap-toothed girl to do anal and rough gangbangs.

Oh, and blow. Lots and lots of blow.

[Fletch XXX]

'nailed to a cross of holy design.'