The Apache story - GoFuckYourself.com

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 06:01 AM

I've seen some people wondering why already three Aaches have been downed by the Iraqi army.
I think the main reason is that a chopper is more likelly to get hit by ground fire then a jet because they attack at a lower altitude and at slower speed. One of the main targets of someone trying to down a chopper would be the tail end, not the pilots or the fuselage. Let me try to explain this.

The top blade of a chopper puts a heavy force on the chopper itself in the opposit way the blade is turning causing the chopper to spin around it's own axe. Most choppers have a tail blade to correct this, some choppers have a trim plate or the tail is put into an angle to avoid this effect.
The Apache has a blade to correct this problem as shown in the picture below.

If you would shoot at that blade and it gets hit the pilots are forced to land it, the chopper would spin around it's own axe out of control.

Secondly you have the choppers elevator plates as shown in the picture below.

As you can see these plates are very small, two bullit hits would blow out atleast 40% of it, i don't think the pilots are able to correct it and are forced to land it.

The top blade is not a target i think because it would be nearly impossible to hit it, the pilots would not fly over enemy fire but they would fly passed it making the tail section a very good target.

Still, the Apache is a very deadly attack weapon, it is able to do a low altitude dead on attack and fire those rockets dead on it's target, making it nearly impossible to miss. Being able to attack at low altitude is a very good tool i think, imagine an anti aircraft gun at the top of a building (like alot in Iraq). This gun has a minimum angle although i don't know what that angle is. The Apache is able to approach it below this angle and blow it's ass away. There are alot more things a chopper can do that a jet can't. Not to mention being able to hover and land and take-off practicly anywhere. Still, i think it's a mean beast and one of the top tools any army could have.

Just look at it, ain't it a mean beast?

BRISK · 03-25-2003, 06:12 AM

You put a lot of work into that post.

capribex · 03-25-2003, 06:12 AM

everything you say is true, but there is a way they can avoid from these fuckers. they can fly higher! the EFFECTIVE range of those small arms used against them (ak-47 etc.) is about 300 meters. all they should do is fly at 500 meters and they are relatively safe from 99% of the weapon holders. at these open spaces (not above cities) there is almost no AAA fire they should be worried about. that "only" leaves them with shoulder missiles to worry about, which in fact isn't too hard cause helis have very limited thermal signature and they have flares. i think the problem of the americans now isn't technological. it is tactical. the israelis fly apache helicopters for over 2 years, daily, above the west bank and gaza (as they did for years over lebanon) and didn't lose a single one (though they come under fire daily). i really think the US problem is tactical. they should consult more often with adult webmasters like myself.

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capribex
everything you say is true, but there is a way they can avoid from these fuckers. they can fly higher! the EFFECTIVE range of those small arms used against them (ak-47 etc.) is about 300 meters. all they should do is fly at 500 meters and they are relatively safe from 99% of the weapon holders. at these open spaces (not above cities) there is almost no AAA fire they should be worried about. that "only" leaves them with shoulder missiles to worry about, which in fact isn't too hard cause helis have very limited thermal signature and they have flares. i think the problem of the americans now isn't technological. it is tactical. the israelis fly apache helicopters for over 2 years, daily, above the west bank and gaza (as they did for years over lebanon) and didn't lose a single one (though they come under fire daily). i really think the US problem is tactical. they should consult more often with adult webmasters like myself.

As for the Isrealis, i think they have one big advantage, they fly in populated areas, making it easyer for them to hide the chopper, kinda do a hit and run. The Apache in Iraq are mostly flying in the dessert, an open terrain not able to hide yourself behind any building or anything making it a fairly open target. As for the altitude i think 500 meters (around 1500 feet) could be reached by alot of simple guns, i'm not sure though. Nice input by the way.

capribex · 03-25-2003, 06:32 AM

well, i was just trying to think who in the world is using the apache today in combat. that left me only the israelis and the americans... i know the israelis were flying apaches also above lebanon which may (???) be more of an open area than above a city like gaza... i know for sure that whenever they show them on TV after they intercept cars with hammas people etc. - they seem to be flying quite high for a chopper. well, higher than i would expect. i think the effective range of an ak-47 against people is under 1km, which brings me to believe their effective range against the transmission of the apache is shorter. i really think they should experiment flying higher or at least consult with the israeli air force which has bigger experiance. no reason why an old farmer with WWII rifle will shoot down an apache...

anyway, your "article" was very interesting.

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capribex
well, i was just trying to think who in the world is using the apache today in combat. that left me only the israelis and the americans... i know the israelis were flying apaches also above lebanon which may (???) be more of an open area than above a city like gaza... i know for sure that whenever they show them on TV after they intercept cars with hammas people etc. - they seem to be flying quite high for a chopper. well, higher than i would expect. i think the effective range of an ak-47 against people is under 1km, which brings me to believe their effective range against the transmission of the apache is shorter. i really think they should experiment flying higher or at least consult with the israeli air force which has bigger experiance. no reason why an old farmer with WWII rifle will shoot down an apache...

anyway, your "article" was very interesting.

As i can recall the dutch army has Apaches but i think their main purpose is airshows hehe. Don't know the figures for the AK-47 as never did reading on the armory on the chopper but i think you are right. Only thing i could think of for a reason to fly low is the smoke from the burning oil wels, if they fly into that shit the engine inlet can't take in any pure air anymore and may (although i'm not sure) fail.

buran · 03-25-2003, 08:26 AM

The Apache Longbow is alright, but check out what's replacing it:

<img src="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/boeing_comanche_1.jpg">
<br>

Now that's some shit right there.

PS, no way an aged AK is going to be accurate out to 1000M -- 300 absolute tops.

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by buran
The Apache Longbow is alright, but check out what's replacing it:

<img src="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/boeing_comanche_1.jpg">
<br>

Now that's some shit right there.

PS, no way an aged AK is going to be accurate out to 1000M -- 300 absolute tops.

Is that that new one with the ejection seat?
You can all laugh now but i know for a fact a new chopper with ejection seat has been brought out, and it isn't the first one with an eject seat. If i'm correct the seat fals forward first and then the pilot is ejected thruw it's windshield, i don't know if it throws out the top rotor first, from the look of the guy sitting behind it must.

PersianKitty · 03-25-2003, 08:36 AM

I'm probably the dumb one here, but I thought the AH64 was primarily used to fire air to surface and air to air missles. \

Japan, Kuwait and Greece are also using them (Longbow form) or adding them to their forces

keyDet79 · 03-25-2003, 08:38 AM

Yeh, that chopper is pretty crappy.
Now this is a nice piece of Russian machinery:

Kamov 50

Mojo Rizin · 03-25-2003, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XSpider

The top blade of a chopper puts a heavy force on the chopper itself in the opposit way the blade is turning causing the chopper to spin around it's own axe. Most choppers have a tail blade to correct this, some choppers have a trim plate or the tail is put into an angle to avoid this effect.
The Apache has a blade to correct this problem as shown in the picture below.

You are correct in most regards except for one minor detail...

"some choppers have a trim plate or the tail is put into an angle to avoid this effect."

The angle of the tail really has nothing to do with anything in regards to functionality.

The ONLY way to totally eliminate the rear rotor is by using air propulsion that is used to counteract the spinning of the main rotor. It simply shoots out air in the opposite direction that the chopper wants to spin without having a rear rotor. Otherwise without the counter balance the chopper would simply cork screw itself.

Rxxx · 03-25-2003, 08:53 AM

Yea, fear the power!

Ka-50 Black Shark

and

SU-47 Berkut (Golden Eagle)

capribex · 03-25-2003, 09:05 AM

yes, i know many countries use the apache, but i think only the US and Israel actually used it above hostile land. and the apache is almost entirely air to ground. i only know of one instance in recent history that an attack helicopter intercepted an airplane.

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo Rizin

You are correct in most regards except for one minor detail...

"some choppers have a trim plate or the tail is put into an angle to avoid this effect."

The angle of the tail really has nothing to do with anything in regards to functionality.

The ONLY way to totally eliminate the rear rotor is by using air propulsion that is used to counteract the spinning of the main rotor. It simply shoots out air in the opposite direction that the chopper wants to spin without having a rear rotor. Otherwise without the counter balance the chopper would simply cork screw itself.

Ow, ok, my bet

When i was in flight school i remember seeing a chopper on the apron and i asked the pilot why the tail was in such a funny angle and he said it was to contribute to make it stable, i thought he was referring to the effect of the top rotor. Must be something else then. I know some small aricrafts have a trim plate in the tail section to contribute the aicraft wanting spin the opisite way of it's prop (only when it's a single engine prop) but if i recall it correct that has to do with the windflow of the prop hitting the tail section and "pushes" it to the other side and a combination of the same force a chopper has from it's top blade.

keyDet79 · 03-25-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo Rizin
The ONLY way to totally eliminate the rear rotor is by using air propulsion that is used to counteract the spinning of the main rotor. It simply shoots out air in the opposite direction that the chopper wants to spin without having a rear rotor. Otherwise without the counter balance the chopper would simply cork screw itself.

I just posted pics of another way.

playa · 03-25-2003, 09:14 AM

actually it is not easy to shoot down an Apache with small arms

they fly low so you can find them from a distance, and their actually very quite and can sneak up on you

you have to fire in front of the path of apache because it moves really fast. the problem is that when you shoot you will leave yourself open and it will be a matter of seconds before they will catch you and shoot you back.

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyDet79

I just posted pics of another way.

I thought with double rotor it still has that effect from the rotor closest to the fuselage... i got alot to learn about choppers i guess

Mojo Rizin · 03-25-2003, 09:23 AM

Sorry I should have clarified.. I meant just a single rotor..

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 09:36 AM

Here is a video taken from the cockpit of a US chopper when the top rotor hits a tree....... good save from that pilot although he should have payed a little more attention to those trees. Watch the trees on the right side of the chopper.

http://www.avpics.de/mov/mil/64-tree.rm

And this one got a wind ghust while refuling. Very lucky crew.

http://www.avpics.de/mov/mil/probe.rm

XSpider · 03-25-2003, 09:42 AM

Our belgian army has some great stuff:

corvette · 03-25-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capribex
i really think the US problem is tactical. they should consult more often with adult webmasters like myself.

Beautiful

03-25-2003, 06:01 AM	#1
XSpider Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium Posts: 356	The Apache story I've seen some people wondering why already three Aaches have been downed by the Iraqi army. I think the main reason is that a chopper is more likelly to get hit by ground fire then a jet because they attack at a lower altitude and at slower speed. One of the main targets of someone trying to down a chopper would be the tail end, not the pilots or the fuselage. Let me try to explain this. The top blade of a chopper puts a heavy force on the chopper itself in the opposit way the blade is turning causing the chopper to spin around it's own axe. Most choppers have a tail blade to correct this, some choppers have a trim plate or the tail is put into an angle to avoid this effect. The Apache has a blade to correct this problem as shown in the picture below. If you would shoot at that blade and it gets hit the pilots are forced to land it, the chopper would spin around it's own axe out of control. Secondly you have the choppers elevator plates as shown in the picture below. As you can see these plates are very small, two bullit hits would blow out atleast 40% of it, i don't think the pilots are able to correct it and are forced to land it. The top blade is not a target i think because it would be nearly impossible to hit it, the pilots would not fly over enemy fire but they would fly passed it making the tail section a very good target. Still, the Apache is a very deadly attack weapon, it is able to do a low altitude dead on attack and fire those rockets dead on it's target, making it nearly impossible to miss. Being able to attack at low altitude is a very good tool i think, imagine an anti aircraft gun at the top of a building (like alot in Iraq). This gun has a minimum angle although i don't know what that angle is. The Apache is able to approach it below this angle and blow it's ass away. There are alot more things a chopper can do that a jet can't. Not to mention being able to hover and land and take-off practicly anywhere. Still, i think it's a mean beast and one of the top tools any army could have. Just look at it, ain't it a mean beast? __________________ XSpider

03-25-2003, 06:12 AM	#2
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	You put a lot of work into that post. __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

03-25-2003, 08:26 AM	#7
buran Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: how'd I get here? Posts: 264	The Apache Longbow is alright, but check out what's replacing it: <img src="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/foto/boeing_comanche_1.jpg"> <br> Now that's some shit right there. PS, no way an aged AK is going to be accurate out to 1000M -- 300 absolute tops. __________________ [this signature intentionally left blank]

03-25-2003, 08:36 AM	#9
PersianKitty Meow Media Inc. Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: In the valley of the sun, cactus, tacos, tequila, and nod Posts: 7,785	I'm probably the dumb one here, but I thought the AH64 was primarily used to fire air to surface and air to air missles. \ Japan, Kuwait and Greece are also using them (Longbow form) or adding them to their forces __________________ Wondering what webmaster programs PK uses? Check them out here!

03-25-2003, 08:38 AM	#10
keyDet79 Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,109	Yeh, that chopper is pretty crappy. Now this is a nice piece of Russian machinery: Kamov 50 __________________ Multihomed quality BW for less ICQ 51034232 - MSN [email protected] - Email keydet(at)vibehosting.com

03-25-2003, 06:12 AM	#3
capribex Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 382	everything you say is true, but there is a way they can avoid from these fuckers. they can fly higher! the EFFECTIVE range of those small arms used against them (ak-47 etc.) is about 300 meters. all they should do is fly at 500 meters and they are relatively safe from 99% of the weapon holders. at these open spaces (not above cities) there is almost no AAA fire they should be worried about. that "only" leaves them with shoulder missiles to worry about, which in fact isn't too hard cause helis have very limited thermal signature and they have flares. i think the problem of the americans now isn't technological. it is tactical. the israelis fly apache helicopters for over 2 years, daily, above the west bank and gaza (as they did for years over lebanon) and didn't lose a single one (though they come under fire daily). i really think the US problem is tactical. they should consult more often with adult webmasters like myself.

03-25-2003, 06:32 AM	#5
capribex Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 382	well, i was just trying to think who in the world is using the apache today in combat. that left me only the israelis and the americans... i know the israelis were flying apaches also above lebanon which may (???) be more of an open area than above a city like gaza... i know for sure that whenever they show them on TV after they intercept cars with hammas people etc. - they seem to be flying quite high for a chopper. well, higher than i would expect. i think the effective range of an ak-47 against people is under 1km, which brings me to believe their effective range against the transmission of the apache is shorter. i really think they should experiment flying higher or at least consult with the israeli air force which has bigger experiance. no reason why an old farmer with WWII rifle will shoot down an apache... anyway, your "article" was very interesting.

03-25-2003, 08:53 AM	#12
Rxxx Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 28	Yea, fear the power! Ka-50 Black Shark and SU-47 Berkut (Golden Eagle)

03-25-2003, 09:05 AM	#13
capribex Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 382	yes, i know many countries use the apache, but i think only the US and Israel actually used it above hostile land. and the apache is almost entirely air to ground. i only know of one instance in recent history that an attack helicopter intercepted an airplane.

03-25-2003, 09:14 AM	#16
playa Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: atlanta, GA Posts: 6,432	actually it is not easy to shoot down an Apache with small arms they fly low so you can find them from a distance, and their actually very quite and can sneak up on you you have to fire in front of the path of apache because it moves really fast. the problem is that when you shoot you will leave yourself open and it will be a matter of seconds before they will catch you and shoot you back.

03-25-2003, 09:23 AM	#18
Mojo Rizin Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 1,089	Sorry I should have clarified.. I meant just a single rotor..

03-25-2003, 09:36 AM	#19
XSpider Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium Posts: 356	Here is a video taken from the cockpit of a US chopper when the top rotor hits a tree....... good save from that pilot although he should have payed a little more attention to those trees. Watch the trees on the right side of the chopper. http://www.avpics.de/mov/mil/64-tree.rm And this one got a wind ghust while refuling. Very lucky crew. http://www.avpics.de/mov/mil/probe.rm __________________ XSpider Last edited by XSpider; 03-25-2003 at 09:38 AM..

03-25-2003, 09:42 AM	#20
XSpider Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belgium Posts: 356	Our belgian army has some great stuff: __________________ XSpider