To answer your question: I never said ANY of my sites could rank in terms of traffic or ad buys so comparing Brazzers to Fellucia Blow is retarded. Her site gets around 10-12 visitors a day BUT it is all 'organic', meaning no ad buys or bought traffic. Plus the conversion ratio is very high. It is actually a niche site (CFNM) so her numbers are outstanding.

Same with ErosExotica and several others. Look man, there are only two ways to "make it" with any kind of online business. Either have one MASSIVE site or many, many sites. It's easier to do the latter, at least for me, which is why I run 3 networks. LOL

Again, start your own thread. I have this nasty habit of responding to the OP.

I never mentioned 2 million. You implied 200k-1million... and only late as 3 posts before this one...

edit... 8 posts before this one...

To avoid silly discussions like this one. :)

Good question but youre wrong, are they worlds apart for some affiliates, yes. Some sites do better for some affiliate sites. So in an affiliates mind, one site probably converts better than the other. But for a paysite, that justm eans they do well with a different market. But in the grand scheme of things, their conversion rates aren't worlds apart. Only time they are worlds apart depends on the age of the site and how saturated it is. A small site with no exposure with good content will convert better, a site that is highly successsful and in 2nd year will convert terrible. But thats why the question was , 1 year into the site and successfully ran. I do think wowgirls,blacked,faketaxi, etc which are all different sites aren't far apart in conversion ratio if you compared it at their one year mark

Dont take what i was saying the wrong way, i was going off topic to prove an original point. It just happened to include having to tell you that your site cannot be compared due to certain negative reasons.

Your site and network is fine, and its all good and you are a really good webmaster. Dont take me saying that your sites dont have "high quality content' combined with competent marketing as bashing. Its impossible for you to, you ahven't invested that much or that much time into a single site, from what i know. Everybody has a different business model. Yours is great. Its just not on the scale of the sites we're talking about, since we're talking about a single site as a focus and its capabilities

yeah i know, somebody else did, my main point of the response was to you, but the numbers i mentioned were in response to some of the numbers people thought it could be, like 0 or 2 million. as they were exaggerating ;)

Anyway, now that its clearer, what do you think a hardcore site with high quality content, competent marketing and a good sized budget (similar to other successful sites) can get in terms of members, in 2015? After the one year mark. Or well, a reachable goal

.. and i guess the site being your only focus

LOL that better, he should have edited his post to say that. since people were trying to be all smartass and say, well is he investing a quarter. LOL

Maybe you guys should just call each other and discuss this

Should he have editted his post because it was just too vague... or because there are too many smartasses here?

Call us smartasses all you want... but the fact is that we saw too many smartasses on this board going to "launch a program" with 5K to invest... "what camera should i buy?"

Then the only reason to post the question is he didn't trust your opinion.

Why? I rather a back and forth dispute (even if it does get repetitive) about business and number projections over 95 percent of the posts on this board, maybe 99 percent. One thing that is never discussed in this industry is numbers, people truly have no idea what to expect out of their sites or what their competition is doing . Alot of people dont know how to analyze traffic numbers or a sites success, so regardless of the back and forth bitching, i think theres more to take from this thread than vast majority of other threads. i think im one of the only people who shares my numbers on gfy and discusses other peoples success. If more people would research like that, there would be alot of webmasters who do alot better.

If you were starting a solo site, and wanted to know profit margins, member base expectations, etc - you could only find that out in threads identical to this, that ive been involved with.

Already in this thread, we have discussed costs of scenes, mentioned successful sites, what you need for an investment in solo, what you need for hardcore, if you want to compete with the large scale sites, etc

theres information to be had from any conversation about the business, no matter how annoying the bickering can be.

and you want us to take it private to go back to the posts about poo and black people?

Also i like having evidence of what people say to refer back to later.

I can guarantee you there is a 100% difference between them. One will be doing 100% better then one of the other ones.

Example 1:450 versus 1:900.

Now having said that, I would be super interested to be proven wrong... I jsut know I wouldn't be.

Did i ever claim to know the answer? Show me a quote, i can show you a quote syaing i dont know. But with the research i explained earlier, i could get a ballpark figure that might be SOMEWHAT close. but i dont care enough. the debate wasn't whether i was right about how many members a site can obtain, it was about whether the question had enough information to be answered by somebody who knew. If you were following, you would know that ;)

100 percent isn't worlds apart. That would be a site with 4000 members vs 2000 members. Is that worlds apart? Lets say there is 5 successful new sites in hardcore. One has 4000, one has 2,000, One has 3500, one has 4200.

Now if somebody asked you, what can i expect out of hardcore if i were to enter hardcore with a good budget and high quality content. Would i say its worlds apart, how deep is the rabbit hole?, thats an impossible question? No. Would you say that? I dont think so. I would say, well i'd say, expect 1500-2000+. Or maybe not expect, but , thats a realistic goal

Like i said, i can answer this question if it were solo, easily. Me and mutt have projected for people often. However, you guys say its impossible for hardcore for some reason.

Exactly 1 hour and 15 minutes ago you implied a budget of between 200k and 1 million...
So... exactly... since that is finally cleared, maybe someone who knows will post...

Nope incorrect. I said very early in the first page, exampes of sites. Which showed the scale we were discussing. But yes now its spelled out for people.

The people who needed it spelled out most likely couldn't answer.

The thing about the Internet is no one can ever really tell what another website does, costs, etc. We can guesstimate but that's about it. Besides, who says all those thousands of "members" are legitimate (if we're talking in the millions in revenue). But that is another topic shhh. LOL

All I can say is this: If you wanted to start a paysite in 2015 and compete with the top paysites out there, and had enough of a budget, you could do so. But that isn't saying much. Why?

Because if you wanted to start a tube site in 2015 and wanted to compete with Pornhub, XHamster et al, regardless of budget you would have a tough time doing it. Paysites create content, which is why they are vital to this Industry. But which has more revenue (big tubes or big paysites) and which is an easier goal to achieve in 2015? I say paysites are more achieveable but it takes a lot of coin to get to the top status, and the profit margins must have shrunk from their high of 5-7 years ago.

So it's all relative, as they say.

And you think that we assume that you know what you are talking about?
Anyone can drop a name of a site; claming or assuming he can achieve that...

drop a budget... so we know what you're talking about... took you one day to drop a budget... was it so difficult?

You make it sound like if you paid enough, you could do anything. theres only so many places to put money towards in marketing, its not as if a site with 500k can do a whole ton more than somebody with 300k, they can shoot more and extend the life longer, but in terms of marketing, how many places are there to really put that much money towards in adult?

Why do you think most adult companies in similar markets have been around the same size? THeres only sooo many paying subscribers out there, theres only so many marketing avenues, theres only so many available ad spots.

There is a certain level of investment that is required to enter hardcore to compete with the big guys, then there are people who want a bigger cushion and to shoot more scenes, or want to increase revenues 50 percent, so they spend another 500k. but the grand scheem of things, they are still all in the same ballpark

It sounds as if people in this thread are saying 100k can get you 500 members, 500k can get you 10,000 members and a million can get you 50,000 members

Thats not the way it is though, you can spend a fortune more , doesn't mean the results improve a ton. Sometimes to get to a certain level is easy, and to get past that, costs a fortune.

That is the case in adult. So when you say, whats the budget, i say 200k-million because its not even that different to be honest.

These guys with a million aint going to be 5x bigger than the guy who spends 200k. Sometimes people also spend more money to make up for lack of marketing knowledge, or like i said before, to improve 10-150 percent

With all that said, i dont think any of the big sites are worlds apart and giving an estimation of member bases isn't as hard as you guys think, not for people who have ANY inside knowledge, whether thats from working for a company or having your own in the same market. Which is what he stated he was seeking information from. Though i do think with enough research, even a person who isn't involved , could give a rough estimate of member bases based on public traffic information, tube exposure, google trends, torrent site download totals , using a rough estimate of conversion ratio, etc

No you're right, threads like this are better... if we can skip the Babylonian confusion

I don't think anyone says that... I only think you need a minimum of a certain budget to even be able to compete... it's not like the more the bigger... theres an end to that... like you said...
i agree with that...

I chortled lol


And slapass,

"""As an affiliate seller, we know that some sites sell 1:400 and some sell 1:4000. And a big chuck of that is tweaks to the tour, how much the content is out there. How good is the content? Produced well? Edited well? Pirated a lot?"""

I have been known to send a join or two and imho....

I care about nothing except the landing page.

One page sells the paysite , not a tour, and the surfer has no idea what is in the pay site til he pays so what content is in there , what it production value is etc etc etc, is irrelevant to the initial sale.

The landing page has to be great and that is what makes the surfer get the credit card out and buy.

Oh , and usually , I will give you the landing page..... ;-)))

Sorry for chiming in :)

Carry on. :)

if people didn't think that, people wouldn't be saying its an impossible question to answer.

i was exaggerating the numbers to moreso show the point i was making, i do think people think that a much larger investment changes what a person can get in terms of a realistic member base goal alot more than it does. if you have a big enough budget to pay for high quality hardcore content, you have enough to compete. more budget only helps some and wont make you 5x bigger.

You're mixing up two things now... minimum budget and a max to a budget where it doesn't matter anymore...

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

please give me a landing page :Graucho

(too bad i dont do PPS)

Once again Sir you have crystalized my thoughts. :)

I am a super practical person so the only thing I concentrate on is Joins (and getting my rebills to a respectable 2-3 months+). This is why my landing pages - A/B tested to DEATH - are so simple.

Also: paysites, big or small, seem to find their levels, as has been noted. So this is why so many companies have multiple paysites. VERY few have a single paysite. It's the only way to expand. Some are a "deal" (pay one price, get them all) while others upsell etc etc. More is almost always better.

For sure. Thats how i go about my solo site business too. I could spend a ton more time and money to increase things 10-20 percent. but i rather just use that time to launch another. its just easier to get to a certain point. and move onto the next

thats more evidence to what i was saying before, that most hardcore sites aren't worlds apart

I have enjoyed reading this thread, and as my name and sites have been referenced a lot, I wanted to recap on some numbers that I shared previously as they have relevance here. Everything I am writing here now I have shared in numerous posts in the past on both GFY and Xbiz, so nothing is new.

I invested around $150k to launch 2 sites. Around $50k of that was on cameras and computer and the design and build of the 2 sites. Around $30k was staff costs (editor, photo editor and webmaster) for a 4 month period. $70k was spent on shooting the content. This gave me enough content to launch the 2 sites and 4 weeks of updates.

We launched the sites by promoting the sites on the tube sites. It cost us nothing for promotion. Within 30 days, we were getting an average of 30 sales a day between both sites. This revenue enabled the sites to be self sufficient i.e. I did not have to invest more money into the company to shoot more content and pay the staff.

Regarding rebills, that's where we made bank. And it was the rebill revenue that I invested to launching new sites and the snowball effect started.

A starting budget is really hard to define. If you can shoot and edit the content yourself, then you don't need crew/staff. This can take a fully delivered per scene cost down from the $2k The Porn Nerd states to less than $1k if that content is shot in Europe. And that's BG content too. How many scenes do you need to launch? That has a big factor. But the more scenes you have, the more tube clips you can put on the tubes, generating more sales. That's an expensive catch 22.

Website cost... $5k? Camera equipment, lights? I wouldn't buy them at first, hire them.

So depending on your answers to a few of the statements above, everyone's starting budget would be different. I can't advise on what advertising budget would be needed as never bought traffic. And for reference, I only started doing $1 trials on my sites in Oct 2014.

@MaDalton, you have a good memory for figures ;)

A starting budget is hard to define indeed, thats why i gave such a big window. But big enough to give you all the stuff you need to make competitive content, a decent marketing budget, and explained it would update once a week like average and would start with the average amount of scenes, which from what i've seen (started researching this recently as you know) which is probably between 12-25 for top sites with content you know people would want. Blacked.Com only had to launch with 12, as they know juts how good their content was. the higher quality, the less you have to give.

But yeah, the topic wasn't really about what we need to spend to startup, everybodys will be somewhat different based on their marketing level, connections, skillset, etc - but that doesn't change the member base a great deal as you eventually get the same product in the end. a traditional paysite with similar volume of updates, similar marketing avenues, etc wont really be worlds apart.

Interested information though. :) always appreciate your posts as you are alot more open with information than most

We updated our sites with 2 and 3 updates a week respectively

And yes, blacked.com is impressive, content, design of the site, content and the content. He hit a home run with his first site and that was no easy feat in 2014. Looking forward to his 2nd, 3rd, 10th sites!!!!

Yeah I saw that when i researched yoru sites this week ;) I just mean the average site these days still only updates once a week

I speak of the average, only to give people an idea of what a good hardcore site should expect. So its best to take the averages and not the exceptions. If somebody were to ask me what to expect if i got into hardcore iwth a good product, i'd probably assume they were doing 1 update a week, unless they have an extremely large budget, 2-3 updates a week is a much higher startup cost. You saved money from marketing and basically put it towards more content, giving you an advantage over most. So you would be the exception butin the end, does a site like faketaxi have that many less members than say, blacked? Both are highly successful, one updates 2-3 times a week, one updates once a week. yet both have identical traffic stats (nearly) - think that proves my point about it not being hard to answer the main question here, which is, what the member bases are looking like for successful new hardcore sites in 2015

Ah, I threw some numbers in there about member base we experienced. The other info was just to clarify a few of the previous posts assumptions on my budget etc.

But that ratio is not at the end as retention can vary but let's say it is the same the. After a year the one site will have more then 100% more then the other site. The poorer converting and the poorer retention might be closed.

Also differnt niches will vary. IR like blacked used to retain very well. Versus say solo girls which retain very poorly. Fake taxi. I have no idea. Fad ideas like that used to convert well and retain poorly. Not sure now.

Yes retaining can change the size of a site in regards to member bases but this brings me back to a post i made earlier:

"100 percent isn't worlds apart. That would be a site with 4000 members vs 2000 members. Is that worlds apart? Lets say there is 5 successful new sites in hardcore. One has 4000, one has 2,000, One has 3500, one has 4200.

Now if somebody asked you, what can i expect out of hardcore if i were to enter hardcore with a good budget and high quality content. Would i say its worlds apart, how deep is the rabbit hole?, thats an impossible question? No. Would you say that? I dont think so. I would say, well i'd say, expect 1500-2000+. Or maybe not expect, but , thats a realistic goal"

The bigger of those numbers would be the one who retains better, most likely. There are things that increase and decrease what a site can make, of course. Every site is different. But when you give projections of what a hardcore site should/could make in 2015. You give realistic goals given everything goes according to plan. Its what people do in business proposals. And it can be done and it can be fairly accurate

FakeTaxi.com is akin to a sitcom, the members see the updates as a new episode. The retention is fantastic. But I understand about fad sites selling well and no retention.
I believe that is why blacked.com is doing so well. They are a breath of fresh air in the IR niche. Reminds me of x-art in some ways when they exploded. Stunning content, and a very well designed website. Actually, blacked and x-art are 2 sites that I am/was a member of.

Nick, I know why you think that. But content can get some of us who use differnt marketing the click through to the landing page.

And I bet you have more knowledge then most about how a niche site might have a much better conversion ratio but do to its smaller appeal, it pays less to market it heavy.

Same sites i follow (as a fan), 2/3 anyway, the other is GirlsDoPorn, only because theyre the only company out there hiring brand new high quality models almost every week, models that look like they'd never ever do porn. Low quality shooting and direction (same positions everytime) but its a breath of fresh air in an industry where you see the same models or type of girl on every site.

Now if people would copy their recruitment process and combine that with quality/design, etc

Fucking impressive. :thumbsup

You can pull in thousands, maybe even 10,000. The question is - would they be profitable? You need way more hits to convert into once sale these days, which means your cost of bringing a members is much higher then lets say 8 years ago. And membership prices did not go up...
No problems to get 10K members, question is - would you turn profit..

So the numbers being thrown around earlier is "in the ballpark" of what JT is saying. Thanks JT for sharing those numbers. :)

So we spent 50K to launch the new Fellucia Blow, in line with JT's costs to launch a new site. But a CFNM blowjob site is a highly niched site and we did not go after rebills in the same way. But at the end of the day it's about what it's always about: content and traffic.

The acquiring of the content is an initial cost, then an ongoing cost, but if you do not have very good organic traffic sources (as JT does) then you would need to either build that traffic from the ground up or pay for it. And it's this last point that is really the most important. Personally, I prefer the organic "JT way". Buying traffic (and media buys) is a tricky and costly game. Some do it very well while others go broke trying to figure it out.

I believe in maximum profits so, for me, that means getting as much as I can with as little cost as I can. This makes my personal take maximum, which is all I care about. LOL Well that, and maximum revenue for my partners, affiliates, etc. :)

you have proven to put in a major commitment to your business & the business, also found reward from your commitment. The amount of money you put into your business is outstanding, again, the amount you have received from this is worthy. This is a great asset of knowledge to my site & my partners, thank you!

Working hard, giving people the content they want to see & to drive money & commitment into a business, it can have success :2 cents:

Goooo team gfy

http://www.solorevenue.com/traffic_l...d_faketaxi.jpg


^ traffic levels

Only posting this to show more evidence that i dont think sites are all worlds apart like one might think

My point is that sites in hardcore that are successful and ran properly, all will reach around the same level, some rebill better than others, others tinker with it more, etc etc - others update more, but in teh end, you will obtain similar amounts of traffic and the end result (member base) will not be worlds apart. These numbers are not a coincidence

This happens in solo too, this is why i can project what a successful site in solo would make if done properly

But wouldn't you agree that blacked will have peaked at much smaller numbers then x-art just because its marketing is smaller.

For this discussion hardcore means a broader appeal. Am I wrong?

It wont reach the levels of x-art because x-art launched first and during a better state of the industry. The ceiling on one single site has decreased every year

Jt dont you own porntube.com one of the largest tube sites

That sent you sales amd helped with your program I assume?

It would prolly have yr content on it!!!! ;-))) ( errr allegedly) ;-)))

And slapass, with you mate, was just offering a different viewpoint from a different perspective. And yes I do understand your point too.

I just thought...well you know....we all work in different ways ;-))

JT!!!

I thought you were sodding off!!!!

You have had more comebacks than Sinatra! ;-)))

and porn nerd...

one could say , paysites find their level...me I'd rather have 100 paysites each doing 10 joins a day than 5 doing 200. ;-)))


(I really should be fined for excessive use of the winkyface)

;-)))

Nope, that's no me :)

Here is my guess. And some variables I'm going to assume.

2 updates week (need this to have material to submit to the tubes to get traffic)
Better end of ratio these days is 1:3k
so lets cut the 50k avg in half and round up to 30k uniques day
10 sales day is my guess