All of this Ukraine / Russia debate is mute..

[Markul]

Because all your countries are belong to Scandinavia:

In addition to Russia, the Vikings were also instrumental in the foundation of modern Ukraine.

SOURCE

[Joshua G]

i just dont get it. Russia has controlled ukraine longer than the US has controlled california. but nobody got all hissy when we invaded california.

[deltav]

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

i just dont get it. Russia has controlled ukraine longer than the US has controlled california. but nobody got all hissy when we invaded california.

Ummm... except we didn't take over Cali until after years of war with Mexico, tons of internal anti-war pressure both from regular citizens (it was the main motivation for Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" essay) and opposition political groups including Abraham Fucking Lincoln, and outcry from Europe (Britain had designs on the region too, for example). So basically you pulled that statement out of your ass, which I guess is par for the course here.

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by deltav

Ummm... except we didn't take over Cali until after years of war with Mexico, tons of internal anti-war pressure both from regular citizens (it was the main motivation for Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" essay) and opposition political groups including Abraham Fucking Lincoln, and outcry from Europe (Britain had designs on the region too, for example). So basically you pulled that statement out of your ass, which I guess is par for the course here.

educate me. tell me more about britains designs. what did they do to the USA. impose sanctions? an embargo? what exactly did they do smartfest?

the other stuff you wrote was nonsense. the USA was in turmoil the entire 19th century over numerous issues.

[theking]

Originally Posted by Markul

Because all your countries are belong to Scandinavia:



SOURCE

Moot....

[deltav]

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

educate me. tell me more about britains designs. what did they do to the USA. impose sanctions? an embargo? what exactly did they do smartfest?

the other stuff you wrote was nonsense. the USA was in turmoil the entire 19th century over numerous issues.

At that time the Brits militarily opposed us on the north part of the west coast (today's Oregon), there was a shit ton of tension and it almost came to war at that time ("Fifty Four Forty Or Fight!") until the treaty was signed just before we invaded Cali/Mexico. They weren't happy but had to suck it up because they had the Irish famine to deal with then and liked trading with us, kinda like the West re:Russia today where I don't think Putin's crying too bad over our sanctions.

Far as social and political upheaval from the invasion, you might call it nonsense but it was very real. There was huge opposition to invading including Lincoln, John Quincy Adams, Thoreau (he was thrown in jail for refusing taxes for the war), all the Whigs, etc. Here are some Whig quotes I just grabbed in 30 seconds of searching:

"In the murder of Mexicans upon their own soil, or in robbing them of their country, I can take no part either now or hereafter. The guilt of these crimes must rest on others. I will not participate in them." -Robert Toombs

"We charge the President with usurping the war-making power ... with seizing a country ... which had been for centuries, and was then in the possession of the Mexicans.... Let us put a check upon this lust of dominion. We had territory enough, Heaven knew." -Josh Giddings

All I'm saying is, you say no hissy fits were thrown. When in fact lots of hissy fits were thrown.

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by deltav

At that time the Brits militarily opposed us on the north part of the west coast (today's Oregon), there was a shit ton of tension and it almost came to war at that time ("Fifty Four Forty Or Fight!") until the treaty was signed just before we invaded Cali/Mexico. They weren't happy but had to suck it up because they had the Irish famine to deal with then and liked trading with us, kinda like the West re:Russia today where I don't think Putin's crying too bad over our sanctions.

Far as social and political upheaval from the invasion, you might call it nonsense but it was very real. There was huge opposition to invading including Lincoln, John Quincy Adams, Thoreau (he was thrown in jail for refusing taxes for the war), all the Whigs, etc. Here are some Whig quotes I just grabbed in 30 seconds of searching:

"In the murder of Mexicans upon their own soil, or in robbing them of their country, I can take no part either now or hereafter. The guilt of these crimes must rest on others. I will not participate in them." -Robert Toombs

"We charge the President with usurping the war-making power ... with seizing a country ... which had been for centuries, and was then in the possession of the Mexicans.... Let us put a check upon this lust of dominion. We had territory enough, Heaven knew." -Josh Giddings

All I'm saying is, you say no hissy fits were thrown. When in fact lots of hissy fits were thrown.

yeah. point taken. but my point was, what is the USAs & europes buziness getting all mad about the local affairs of territory russia has controlled since before the USA even existed.

you are right there was internal hissys in america. but there were internal hissys in america about every issue under the sun from slavery to the fate of indians to industrialization to the US bank.

perhaps my comment should have been more clear in that regard. in any case, britain didnt do anything but cut a deal. at least they had some legit interest in territory we wanted, in contrast to ukraine which is not our business in any way whatsoever.

thats what i was trying to say...

[deltav]

Yeah, I can get on board with that to an extent. I think you have to look at it in the historical context where Stalin had strong-armed half of Europe into his sphere, where they were either absorbed into into the USSR or just puppet states who answered directly to Moscow. Regardless how one feels about communism (I'm pretty left myself) it was a fucked up autocratic oppressive govt. This whole fiasco is eerily reminiscent of that, I have friends in the Baltic states, Poland, and Georgia who you can tell are still traumatized by the Soviets & Iron Curtain stuff.

So in a way Europe does feel like it has implications for them, if Putin can easily grab territory in the name of Restoring Russia like that without repercussions (and the precedent was set in South Ossetia and Abkhazia which Bush complained but ultimately did shit about), what is stopping him from Restoring More Of Russia? So it matters to them. If the USA weren't close allies with western Europe, I personally think Obama would rather stay the fuck out of it.

Hypocrisy everywhere tho, big powerful countries will always do what they want with weak small countries, until they're opposed with equivalent power.

[WDF]

Is this really none of the USA or UK's business?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes...ity_Assurances

When governments sign agreements everyone involved is expected to hold up their end all the time, not just when it suits them or when convenient.

The word of the worlds nuclear powers (the USA and the UK included) is as worthless as the paper and ink used to author and sign the agreements, treaties, pacts, etc they make.

[deltav]

No argument there. Nations seem to only uphold treaties when it's in their interests (as the Native Americans are well aware now).

On the other hand, when you honor binding terms of treaties made years beforehand without regard for the context or possible effects, you get shit like WWI. Read The Guns Of August for a great account of how a huge fucking war started that literally not a single participant really wanted.

What honestly does anyone expect the West to do here? Send in troops? When you've got boots on the ground on high alert all it takes is one miscalculation to start a war, and even aside from that things have a way of snowballing.

I actually think the West is doing the smartest approach. Minor sanctions, with room for more painful ones, let Russia have Crimea and discover in the next couple years that it's a dirt poor region that can't support itself, with a possible growing Muslim insurgency as jihadists come from all over to "help" the Tatars.

Everyone is jumping to conclusions about how Putin just bitch-slapped the West, when in fact Crimea may not be the prize everyone's strangely assuming it is. I think in a few years the verdict will be "more trouble than it was worth".

Now if Russia moves into Eastern Ukraine, that would change things. Putin is smart though, I don't see it.

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by WDF

Is this really none of the USA or UK's business?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes...ity_Assurances

When governments sign agreements everyone involved is expected to hold up their end all the time, not just when it suits them or when convenient.

the point of the treaty was to move nukes. that was done. You know & i know that nobody is going to fight a war over ukraine. the question is really whether europe or the USA has any business at all telling russia what to do in their own backyard.

who are the imperialists? russia, whose controlled that territory for many generations, or NATO, who keeps expanding its defense zone closer & closer to russia?

The USA does not give a shit about sovereign borders AKA, palestinian ones. There is a UN resolution that decrees an area called palestine. who cares? But russia needs to recognize borders?

what a joke.

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by deltav

This whole fiasco is eerily reminiscent of that, I have friends in the Baltic states, Poland, and Georgia who you can tell are still traumatized by the Soviets & Iron Curtain stuff.

i personally think its unfair to compare stalins USSR, who killed tens of millions of people, to anything putin is doing. I believe the international community attempting to isolate russia economically or displomatically over ukraine is a terrible & unnecessary move in the wrong direction. Russia is not going to invade eastern or western europe & we should stop living in 1938. Hitler & stalin were antichrists. nobody comes even close today. cept for cheney.