A god need his own creator. The more complex the god the more complex the being that created him must be.

The argument that god gets special treatment and always existed is a child's argument.

Yup, it's infinitely recursive. The "simple" solution of a god is incredibly complex when you consider the recursion. "It's turtles all the way down!"

that's interesting because they are thinking now that it might :2 cents:

known mutt before I even got on GFY :)

And if we are talking about the god of the bible or Qur'an we have to look at the central concepts of that book. They are pretty fucked up really.

God says worship me or burn forever, you do not see anything fucked up like that from any other deity in history.

No rational person could follow such a god, the only way you spread such a religion is by destroying other religions which is what Christianity has proceeded to do for thousands of years and why so many assholes are attracted to this faith.

Of course they had to come up with a compelling story to spread their destroyer god faith so they wrote their new testament.

Without the new testament no one would follow such a horrible monster as god, that why there are less than %3 Jews in the world.

Most people that call themselves Christians don't really believe all the crap though. They are just conforming to the group.

And as far as the NT goes would you have your son killed to forgive your other children for lieing, cheating, stealing, killing if you could just go ahead and forgive them or give them a worldwide sign that would make them piss their pants?

Why didn't god just get up one day and say with a booming voice, hey mother fuckers you better stop sinning or I'm gonna BBQ you all.

He didn't do that because he is blood thirsty just like the people of the time that wrote the bible.

The Greeks and other cultures had vengeful gods too.

There's some irony in that the Jews probably wouldn't be who they are today if not for Christianity becoming a dominant force in Europe. Without the persecution and discrimination of the Jews they'd probably have assimilated into the cultures and religion of the countries they emigrated into. But they ghettoized them and that only strengthened their self identity as Jews, the Chosen people.

I wouldn't be working with porn if I did.

I was referring to a monotheistic God, the personified God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All knowing, all seeing, the creator of everything.

I don't know what your source is for Christianity having a whole pantheon of deities in its myths - as far as I know there are and always have been only three - God, Jesus, Holy Spirit - the trinity, as one entity.

"They"? Citation needed.

somewhat

Though I was confirmed as a Lutheran, I am an atheist.

A friend of mine makes parody wepisodes called "Bible Answers"

They do several calls, then in the middle they have a special show called "touching children" and in this episode they tell Timmy "that the earth is flat."
"Those other kids are stupid dummies, you're not a stupid dummy are you Timmy?" :1orglaugh

In the second video they do circular logic, in addition to all the calls.
They are pretty well put together. :)

two people living in you? that's the devil talking :1orglaugh you cant be a lutheran and a fucking atheist! :1orglaugh

It's an oxymoron, I know, unless you figure time into the equation. :winkwink:

Those gods did not care as much about what men thought of them. They did not demand worship and then threaten torture if you withheld that worship.

They did not need mans worship as you would expect from any truly powerful being. A true god does not care for the thoughts of man or what he or she does with their genitals.

Greek and Roman religion was not as controlling as modern religion. It had a strong hold on the mind but it did not use fear the way Christianity and Islam does.

Lets take Zeus as an example. He was a womanizer and you might even say a rapists but he never demanded worship with threats. If you wanted his graces you could make offerings to him but he most likely would not listen to the average person.

Most Greeks and Romans knew the gods would not listen to their prayers hence the the saying that all the gods are petty and cruel and care not for the suffering of men.

Once someone realized they could make up something like heaven and hell and make themselves rich modern monotheistic religion was born. In order to survive it had to decimate every other belief system.

LOL! Who said things weren't working out for me?

I didn't say there was a connection between religion and good. I said God and religion are used to control people.

What were you reading?

people studying 'quantum' right now.. read a bit on it in the 'Scientific America' ..I have a script to the mag...

I believe in many of the tenets of Buddhism but I dont consider it a religion as much as a philosophy

read your bible then argue its not true :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

'God and religion are only used to control people' used in this fashion reads to me as being the same thing or two sides of the same coin.

I personally see no connection between god and religion... I do not understand religion as having any connection with god. you obviously do or certainly you would have phrased your thoughts differently?

once you are able to understand that there is no connection between religion and god it will make more sense to you and work out better for you... as far as your relationship with god... never said or meant to imply you weren't doing well. :winkwink:

be assured I only wish you the best and have no intentions of forcing my way of life on you... unlike a religion I don't need to convince you, to convince myself ..:thumbsup

a Buddhist joke for you: 2 monks are walking down the path, they come upon a small stream crossing the path and see an old woman is standing by the stream unable to cross.... the first monk takes the old woman into his arms and carries her across, setting her down gently on the other side of the stream, as the second monk glowers at him silently.

the monks continue their journey down the path... after some time the glowering second monk speaks:

"you know we are not allowed to pick people up and carry them" .. "yes" the first monk replies, "but I put her down a long time ago and you still carry her"

All one has to do is read the Bible to see that there is no monotheistic "God" in Christian mythology but rather a whole pantheon of deities, demi-gods, supernatural entities and ferocious monsters in the myths. It stands to reason since Christianity is derived from an amalgamation of earlier religions, many of them polytheistic. The idea that the three main gods in Christianity are united in one entity was not even established until the Third Century A.D.. Not to mention it's preposterous anyway. God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (later renamed to the Holy Spirit because worshipping a ghost sounds silly after all) are three clearly different characters in the various stories.

Then you've got Satan who is clearly a deity of equal or nearly equal power to "God". After all you can't have good without evil or heaven without hell. And the three main deities of Christianity are apparently powerless to stop him. After the Devil there are a number of demi-gods of immense powers such as the archangels, some of whom are featured prominently in the myths and even named such as Gabriel, Michael & Uriel. Who knows how many garden variety angels serve "God"- hundreds, thousands even? But they would also count as demigods of a sort. They surely aren't human.

Then you have who knows how many demons, also demi-gods with supernatural powers who serve Satan and sometimes intervene in human affairs. The Bible also describes several other non-human demi-gods or monsters of a sort including the Nephilim- giants, fallen angels or some kind of angel & human hybrids depending on the various interpretations from antiquity.

Now I know these aren't demi-gods but still look how rich the myths are full of fantastical creatures not like anything that ever actually lived on earth- Leviathon, flying serpents, unicorns, satyrs, Behemoth, cockatrices. I won't even get into saints, former humans who transmogrify into something else entirely.

Ancient, medieval and modern religious leaders have both censored and abridged Christian mythology over the last two millennia. But make no mistake about it. Christian mythology is as rich as any other polytheistic religion.

Well, almost all religious systems do share certain commonalities. No doubt about that. For example, the archetype of the 'hero'



But one set of question sticks to my mind regarding the positioning of belief so apparent in this thread. My questions don't have anything to do with doctrine. But they have everything to do with BELIEF's effects on people. What is wrong with believing if it brings REAL change to your life? I am sure there are countless numbers of people who overcame addictions, unforgiveness, deep-seated anger, abandonment issues, alienation issues, and other hang ups because they surrendered to Islam, rediscovered Torah Judaism, submitted to Christ, found the path of the Buddha, cleared by Scientology, etc etc. Putting aside all discussions regarding some belief systems being scams or historically oppressive, etc, isn't there value in people becoming HAPPY because some belief system offered them ANSWERS they could not find through other means? What gives us the moral superiority to say they are merely deluded and foolish? Wouldn't claiming the moral high ground because we have the 'scientific truth' no more problematic than when 'Christians' of the past persecuted 'witches'? Is there more at play here? If the mixture of religion and state power to suppress 'heresy' was so disgusting, isn't there the same level of disgust here when personal belief is ridiculed.

So what if someone wants to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, if his life reflected a change and freed him from personal demons that drugs, alcohol, sex, Marxism, post-structuralism, post-modernism, and tons of cash couldn't 'cure,' who are we to judge? Isn't the promise of living in a POST MODERNIST society precisely the fact that we can march to the beat of our own drummers?

Sometimes I think discussions about religion are like discussions about Robert Kiyosaki. Many people say he's a fraud. Many people say they got inspired by his books to create a new financial reality for themselves. Let's say both statements are true. What if you were able to become rich being inspired by self-motivation financial FICTION written by Kiyosaki, does it mean your riches are FAKE too? Let's apply that to religion. What about people who were able to get their head straight and not want to KILL everyone they come across because they got transformed by God's LOVE for them. Is their conversion fake? What would you rather have the person believe in? Is there an approved list? The almighty state? Ayn Rand? Marxism? What? If you break these down, any workable belief system has strands of RELIGION (that's partly why I posted the Joseph Campbell structural analysis of life patterns above). Nothing is new. Everything humans create flow from certain patterns. Whether it is the concept of the Hero, the Trickster, the concept of Release, etc etc. Belief is what suffuses them. Ultimately, I'm asking if we've outgrown the ancient and troublesome idea that one belief is SUPERIOR to another...

Just asking. Don't burn me at the stake, bros :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

The real progress will only have been made when belief itself isn't seen as a virtue but as a vice and when irrational belief any kind of superstitious nonsense as seen as silly and shameful.

In other words, there's no space for tolerance? Only the 'right' beliefs will be tolerated and everything else shunned, ridiculed, marginalized? Wouldn't this posture be just recreating the same attitude of religious bigots from the past?

The concept of "God on a cloud" is the result of an increasing rationalising world who literally interpreted old ancient allegories from ancient nature religions and thus now believe that Jesus really walked on water. It is bizar to see how mankind smartend up and what it achieved and at the same time remained so stupid.

Language is a great method to discribe nature (fysical world) and a great help to organize our world, but when it comes to metafysics... people just need to stfu:)

The question I have always had about these ancient religions and their fantastic supernatural tales is how did these ancient people regard them - those people may have been genetically no different than us today but the way they thought and perceived the world is far different than how we do in 2013. Thinking objectively is natural to us, as is skepticism - it wasn't to them, but I don't know to what degree they differed from us. These myths when they heard them may not even have registered as myths to them, they might have just accepted whatever stories were told as fact.

Whoever wrote the Old Testament, did they knowingly write things they knew to be fantasy the way a fantasy fiction writer does today? Or was myth/metaphor not really distinguishable from objective truth to them?

Nobody really has the answer to this, it is impossible to disengage from our way of thinking and imagine how somebody thought in 900 BC and there's really nothing in writings found from that era that sheds much light since all we have of their writings are religious texts themselves, and non illuminating record keeping, military battle results - the discipline of history hadn't even been invented nevermind sociology, psychology and other social sciences. How they lived we have a pretty good grasp of, how they thought not so much.

Today we describe people who believe in ancient fairy tales as having 'faith', while other people who believe in supernatural things, which aren't part of these ancient religions that have survived as kooks and/or mentally ill.

No I don't believe in God, but i believe in karma and that every man should do good and no harm to others every time he can, as what goes around comes around.

mostly organized religion came into play after farming and settlements... once a society became established there came a priesthood to regulate the social/spiritual life... usually revolving around the king and his commitment to the gods to protect the people/crops etc..

before that holy/healers in hunter gather societies were self proclaimed...

the torah was started when the Jews were taken to Babylon to document their history as a tribe and preserve their spiritual culture as Jews, some stories are certainly 'embellished' and of possible interest saw a great documentary about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah ... in brief a meteor was spotted by the Sumerians and documented, the star patterned was traced by computers giving direction/location and date for the cataclysm.... which some scientist believe is the reason the climate collapsed and the Sahara Desert was created thus forcing the peoples to migrate to the Nile area of the continent giving birth to the Egyptian civilization... interesting stuff for sure...

and remember after returning to Judah the Jewish spiritual life changed with David and his heavy influence of Yahweh... culture has remained basically the same for 3500 years


think trayvon/Zimmerman and Teddy Kennedy... only thing that has really changed is technology... people still manipulate for personal gain.. :2 cents:

many people already see it that way. I always laugh at people that say they believe in something that has no evidence. I cringe at the word faith. Ignorant people love to use that word when you corner them on something with no proof.

pretty harsh statement... why do you have concerns about someone's faith if they aren't burdening you? say someone with a child that has cancer... why not allow them the faith to think their child is going to a better place? how can that harm you?

What does one have to do with the other?

I'd really be interested in hearing the chapters that this is discussed in The Bible. And Saints don't transform into anything they were not on earth.

seriously?

god as any kind of life form is pure stupidity at its worse.

Pretty concrete though in reality, unlike all the bs your supporting.

that's how it plays out when you pick and choose your reality :2 cents:

Look up the definition of the word faith, basically belief without evidence.

Normally we would refer to that as ignorance which is something that leads to prejudice.

Yeah, I base mine of facts and I don't need a phoney story to make my self fell better. If more people ignored not having answers and trust in what we have now and venture out with a open mind to find more we would all be a heck of alot better.

I agree with that 100%

Lloyd...come on man. A "saint" is a human being who is declared a "Saint" by the Catholic Church. You need to research stuff before you type it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint Scroll down to "Christianity" and the Roman Catholic Church. They are about to make Pope John Paul a "saint". They have an entire list of stupid shit to become a saint. The final thing is for 2 "miracles" to be performed by the person AFTER THEY ARE DEAD! lol :1orglaugh

God, Jesus, The Pope, "saints", angels...it's all just silly ass superstition. It's just insane that people still believe this stuff (or more likely a testament to how good they are at indoctrinating us into it as children)

Yes please.

i turned beer into pee - and not only once

praise jesus!!!!

here's the issue with your statement: "Yeah, I base mine of facts and I don't need a phoney story to make my self fell better.venture out with a open mind"

you have already made a decision based on no information... so there is no 'open mind' involved, because stating 'NO' is just as much of a decision as a 'YES' and as you claim there are no facts for a god... that works both ways... no proof for, so no proof against, but you have chosen to make a decision....

you might as well say I use chance/luck/hope/faith to make my decisions which is really mental jumping jacks because you do not accept any of those in you life....

see the issue?

Grapesoda... I'm in agreement with Bill Maher on that.

He said the other night on his show that people ask him why not let people have their religion? It doesn't hurt anybody.

Then he pointed out the inquisition, the suffering, EVERY war ever fought, people being beheaded in the Muslim countries, people persecuted worldwide... all caused by religion.

And yeah...it does matter. I think it's time we actually put an end to society playing this big make-believe game of "God". Too many people hurting and dying because of this nonsense.