TheSquealer

200 Convictions without weighing any evidence.

Oh... no facts. Just conjecture and speculation presented as fact.

Thats not like you at all.

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Rochard

baddog

Correct, but from your own admission I know a hell of a lot more than you do.

brassmonkey

was not talking about the case

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kane

What specific evidence other than what Zimmerman has said shows that Martin started the fight?

I don't doubt that Zimmerman was losing the fight, but to me that is not the point. The point is who started it. Zimmerman was off the phone with the police and supposedly on his way to meet the police when the fight started.

I have said all along the case really will come down to how believable Zimmerman is. If the jury thinks he started the fight he screwed. If they don't think he started the fight he will likely be found innocent.

I feel like if you start a fight, the find yourself losing and kill the person you are in the fight with your ass goes to jail for a long time.

Just Alex

Right
You were talking about how to raise the kids.

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baddog

Were you talking about peppers?

brassmonkey

no just alex waiting to file a report hope they can find you alex

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theking

According to Zimmerman...in an interview...while he was on the phone to the police he had got out of his truck to follow Martin...having lost site of Martin in the dark and the rain...he was returning to his vehicle when...from out of the dark...Martin confronted him.

According to the testimony of the girl that Martin called and was talking to on the phone...she said that Martin initially told her that he was being followed by a "Creepy ass cracker" and she told Martin to run but he told her...no that he was not going to do that...and she said that she heard Martin say he saw him coming and he confront Zimmerman by saying...why are you following me.

Thus...according to Zimmerman and the girls testimony...it was Martin that confronted Zimmerman.

Words were exchanged and the girl testified that it sounded as if someone had hit someone and then she heard what sounded to her like someone scuffling around on the grass. So who swung the first punch no one knows from the testimony of anyone thus far. Zimmerman has stated...in an interview...that Martin threw the first punch.

But lets assume...for the sake of argument...that Zimmerman threw the first punch...and Martin overpowered Zimmerman and Zimmerman was getting his ass whipped...according to Zimmerman...in an interview...that is not why he shot Martin.

According to Zimmerman...in an interview...said that his jacket had slid up...exposing his pistol to Martin and Martin uttered the words that he was going to kill him and Marin's hand went for the gun...and that Zimmerman beat him to the gun...and Zimmerman fired one shot. Which immediately killed Martin.

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Just Alex

Laughter continues.

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kane

Well, all I can say to that is if I were the guy on trial for my life I would sure as hell come up with a story that seemed reasonable and made me look like the victim.

As I have said many times, it all comes down to how believable the jury feels Zimmerman and his story is since it is really all we have to go on.

I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of Murder 2. The way I understand that it means he set out to do bodily harm to Martin, but might not have meant to kill him. I think Zimmerman intended to either follow or restrain Martin and his efforts ended up with him in a fight and that fight ended with him shooting Martin. Hence, to me, Zimmerman is likely guilty of Manslaughter unless the jury really feels that Martin started the fight.

TheSquealer

You're right. That's the only point that matters. I've been saying that from the start. Following Martin and all the other crap has no real bearing on the shooting itself. All that matters is the moment the trigger was pulled and whether or not the use of deadly force was justified in that moment. All the testimony is to simply paint a picture of what that final moment might have looked like but the obvious truth is that no one will know for sure.

The majority of the evidence is circumstantial and the jury has to weigh in and make a call. His girlfriend was laughable as a witness and she was a pretty important witness. She admitted to lying, she claimed she couldn't read cursive (and thus the written statement she signed), she was trying to explain that "creepy ass cracker" wasn't offensive in any way, she's 19 and a junior in high school. etc etc etc. Very bizarre. Remember though that its the prosecutors responsibility to PROVE he committed 2nd degree murder. As you're aware... it does not appear to be any easier to prove that, than to prove Zimmerman was right in the shooting and the prosecutor hasn't done a whole lot to help his case so far.

BTW.... Zimmerman himself doesn't need to be credible. He's given 3 recorded statements voluntarily to police. He will never take the stand. At best, his past 911 calls will be admitted to evidence (i think that's happened already)... and they are all basically him being a very meek, calm person just as he is with this one. Not a violent killer looking to kill people.

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Rochard

Axeman

So far all the evidence and witnesses presented at trial are in line with what Zimmerman told police. Does it mean he didn't lie? No, it just means so far nothing has been presented to dispute his claims, and in fact so far has shown Zimmerman's account of events to be correct.

The trial isn't over yet, so that kind of evidence still may appear, but as of right now everything coming out is supporting Zimmerman's account of what happened. Mainly that he was confronted and was being beat up on his back, while Martin was mounted on top. No evidence yet to say who threw the first punch or push however. Nor is there evidence to confirm that Martin said "now you die" as he tried to reach for the gun.

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theking

As far as the credibility of Zimmerman...he had called the Police...I think 47 times since he had been a member of Neighbor Hood Watch. I think five times in just two weeks prior to calling in about Martin...and I think those last five calls the people were all black. The police had made arrests from some of his calls but I am not sure how many arrests and or convictions were made out of the 47 calls.

My point is...to my knowledge at this point in time...Zimmerman had never had any problems before Martin. The case is not over yet so maybe the prosecution is going to present prior bad acts as a Neighbor Hood Watch Captain...which may harm his credibility.

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Rochard

In 2005 he was arrested and charged with assaulting an office, and also in 2005 his ex-fiance filed a restraining order claiming he abused her.

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Grapesoda

if they don't find Zimmerman guilty the black will burn their homes and neighborhoods down, and possibly start killing random white people like they did in the 60's

Rochard

I disagree. Martin was doing nothing wrong, and committed no crime. Zimmerman confronted him, or at the very least put himself int a situation where there was a confrontation with Martin. He followed Martin after 911 told him not to.

I don't see deadly force being justified here at all. Martin didn't have a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, or a even a rock. All he had was a bag of skittles. There's no doubt in my mind that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman, but Zimmerman walked away with a bloody lip and two cuts. That's not"life threatening".

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baddog

Then why were you responding to my post?

The TRO was a mutual one (every divorce in the State of California begins with a mutual TRO, just an FYI) and the charges were dropped on the assault.

What else you got?

theking

I am aware of that but I meant during any of the calls as a Neighbor Hood Watch Captain. Everyone that I have heard speak about him say he appears to be a meek and mild mannered man.

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TheSquealer

Charges that were dropped.

What can be proven is that the local police were trying to recruit him to a neighborhood watch program because they liked him.


here's what the home owners association thought about him:

"He once caught a thief and an arrest was made," Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association in the gated community where Zimmerman lives, told the Miami Herald. "He helped solve a lot of crimes."

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Rochard

baddog

The Stand Your Ground defense isn't being used because if it was, we would not be having a trial now. The most that will happen to Zimmerman is manslaughter and so far, I doubt that will happen.

brassmonkey

well stand your ground is a good law right?

Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free.

full article..

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theking

It appears that Zimmerman also was not doing anything wrong or committing a crime...and Zimmerman was already following Martin when the 911 dispatcher ask him if he was following Martin. When Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher that he was the dispatcher did not tell Zimmerman not to follow but did say you do not need to do that. The 911 dispatcher said that he was not allowed to give any orders to people on 911 calls...because that would make the department liable...that he could only advise. Zimmerman said...in an interview...that he had lost sight of Martin and was returning to his car/truck when Martin appeared out of the darkness and confronted him.

The girl that Martin called during this event testified that she had told Martin to run home when he told her that he was being followed by a "Creepy ass cracker"...he told her that he would not run away...and that at some point she heard Martin confront Zimmerman...not the other way around.

If...as Zimmerman has said...Martin was going for Zimmerman's gun and uttered a threat at the same time...that is "life threatening"..

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TheSquealer

I would think that just getting his head violently beaten against the curb is more than enough for a solid argument

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Rochard

theking

I think it probably would be as one can usually use deadly force if one is in danger of great bodily harm in and of itself...but Zimmerman said he shot Martin when Martin uttered a threat and went for his exposed gun...not because he was taking a beating.

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baddog

If you want to discuss that subject, start another thread; that is not the topic here as it is not being brought into play.

And this is where Rochard refuses to accept that the kid set aside his Skittles and would have been charged with assault and battery with intent to do great bodily harm if Zimmerman had not been armed.

Rochard

Charges were dropped because he went to anger management classes.

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baddog

Which I think goes to show you that the assault on a cop charge was overcharged. I am pretty sure you can't assault a cop and get off with anger management classes under normal circumstances.

Rochard

Right up until the point he shot and killed a teenager.

This is very standard. Police will people not to follow or get involved; That's what the police are for.

Zimmerman completely over stepped his bounds here. When you see a problem, you call police and let them do their job. Instead, we had a "armed neighborhood watch" taking matters into his own hands. Just the fact that he was a member of the neighborhood watch AND armed says it all to me; The task of the neighborhood watch is just that - watch - and then report... Not forcing a confrontation carrying a firearm.

I don't think Zimmerman went out looking for trouble. I think he put himself in a bad situation, things got out of hand, and he panicked - and ended up shooting the kid and killing him.

Well all we have is his word....

I don't trust a word she says either. She was caught in a dozen lies before the trial started. I'm surprised that charges haven't been brought against her frankly.

This is the problem with firearms - once a firearm is introduced a simple issue such as a fist fight quickly can become a life or death situation. In this case I find it hard to believe that Zimmerman felt threatened, if only because he was the only one who was armed.

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L-Pink

"It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense"

.

theking

I used to be a member of a Neighbor Hood Watch. I carry a concealed weapon when ever I leave the house...and certainly carried when I was a member of the Neighbor Hood Watch. At least two or three others of the watch also carried concealed weapons. There was also a pump 12 Gauge shotgun in our patrol car. Our instructions was to watch any stranger that we did not recognize as being a member of the community and to continue watching/follow until the stranger was welcomed into a house or had left our community. If at any point a person began to display suspicious activity we were to call the police and continue to watch/follow until the police arrived on the scene. We were instructed to try to avoid a personal confrontation if possible. During the time that I lived in the community we did not have any crime (I suspect that a highly visible Neighbor Hood Watch was one reason we had few problems in the community) and there were not many calls to the police.

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Rochard

Well, that explains your position.

Wonderful. Armed civilians with no law enforcement training and no rules wondering around in the dark getting chubbies playing cops and robbers.

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theking

What position would that be? What gives you the impression that there were no rules? No one was playing at anything. One of the members of the watch was a reserve Deputy and two of the members of the watch were retired police officers.

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RFremont

Can you cite where that's documented, that small detail about the 12 pieces of women's jewelry and a screwdriver in young trayvon's backpack.

maxjohan

The story sounds like coming from someone who lies quite a lot. Just coming up with facts and details all over the place. And nothing going against himself. If everything he says is true. Then, Martin, must have been one evil m*ther f*cker. Right?

Well. Everything going against Martin but the running part. I guess.

Really. This is a little too far fetched, in my opinion. But that's just me.

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TheSquealer

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Trayvon...144403305.html

Zimmerman thought a burglar looked suspicious, therefore, he's racist.

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Rochard

tony286

They forget about those little things and he got fired for being to aggressive as a bouncer. Also he was studying mma intensively during this time which is probably why he was so much thinner. Also Trayvon ran away but then he was in Zimmermans face. That makes no sense. Also if it was all self defense why did they stay away from that when florida has a pretty loose stand your ground law.
I think alot of these people defend him because its alot of gun owners fantasy of shooting the bad guy.
Now Trayvon could of have been the biggest piece of shit in the world but at that moment he was just a guy walking home. He had a history of petty theft but that night he stole nothing, Zimmerman who had a history of being violent killed someone. and I have a problem the kid may of been 6'2" but he weight 158 lbs and George from his past history knew how to handle himself with his hands even without the mma training.

tony286

It sounds like from a bad b movie. If the kid saw the gun he would of shit himself.

tony286

And zimmerman would of known that how? The theft stole nothing but the guy with history of violence killed someone.

tony286

Then you werent following the rules. It wasnt play cowboy watch. It was watch and report to the police no more no less and dont follow them. They all follow the same program and I sat thru the class. We were having problems and it cut it in half. No one playing cops just people being aware and calling 911.

TheSquealer

How do you know that a hooker on the street corner is a hooker? How do you know a drug dealer standing on a corner is a drug dealer? How...?

It's not a stretch to say that this Martin looked suspicious... that's why Zimmerman called 911 and began to follow him as he was trying to guide police to Martins location. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Almost all of what he did was documented in the 911 call as he was on the phone almost the whole time.

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Rochard

tony286

He was walking home in a hoodie in the rain at 7pm. Please tell me what was suspicious? Also he lived there and didnt know where the kid was heading he was just walking down the street. Again he may have been a theft but he stole nothing but the guy with the history of violence killed someone.

TheSquealer

Here is the problem. I wasn't there. Neither were you. You've decided it wasn't - without any information. I believe he was darting in and out between houses and others private property... not just walking down the street. That was what prompted Zimmerman to call 911.

What is difficult for me to understand about some of you people is how you can make the massive leap in logic that a neighborhood watch guy called 911 and was trying to guide police to Martin (as he'd done 46 times before) for absolutely no reason whatsoever.'

There is a common theme in almost everything you talk about and everything you stand for as a person... victim... victim... victim. So its not surprising you've automatically decided Martin is a victim of a violent crime and must be defended to the end irregardless of the facts. However, its the facts that existed in the exact moment the fight happened that matter when it comes to determining whether or not Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

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Rochard

vdbucks

You keep saying he was "walking home" and yet, he did not live there.

But it's cool, I know guys like you who want to burn the big bad racist whitey don't care about evidence... only your own twisted fantasies.

TheSquealer

He was staying at someones house there.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

vdbucks

Right, I know that... but visiting his dad who was visiting a woman who lived there isn't synonymous with "walking home".

Mutt

I haven't followed this trial at all - is it being covered live on TV?

From reading this thread the prosecution has little chance of a murder conviction - reasonable doubt is not a large burden for defense attorneys to achieve in the minds of a jury. the legal system we have is predicated on the belief that it's better to have 9 guilty men go free rather than 1 innocent man found guilty. Zimmerman could be one of those 9, we'll never know since there were no eye witnesses to the fight.

so at the end of the trial the judge can instruct the jury that should they not be able to agree that he's guilty of 2nd degree murder they can consider a guilty verdict of manslaughter?

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L-Pink

Funny our neighborhood was told the complete opposite. Our guys were told to politely confront, verify residency and monitor until police arrive for anyone not recognized as a resident and or acting in a suspicious manner. Not detain but "monitor".

TheSquealer

These guys keep fabricating protocols with respect to what Zimmerman should and should not do and applicable laws that don't exist, and then present them as evidence of a crime.

What is the point of a neighborhood patrol that sees someone suspicious in a gated neighborhood suffering a burglary every other month... calls police and just sits there as the guy walks off into the dark and disappears?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

L-Pink

"Excuse me sir. I'm with the neighborhood watch and part of my job is making sure no one trespasses on private resort property. Are you a new resident I haven't had the pleasure of meeting?"

This is how a polite encounter should originate and is indicative of almost every instance where I live. Anyone with the smallest amount of common sense can tell a resident out for a walk vs someone who doesn't belong. But being in a tourist area everyone is given the polite benefit of doubt they belong. Wave to people you know politely talk to those you don't.

In a non tourist community I would think a non resident would really stand out.

tony286

I find that hard to believe,you were told by the police to do that? Your neighborhood assumes great liability.