TheSquealer

Oh - they said one thing and now you are explaining what they "really" meant. Interesting this wasn't a major point in the trial... Yet is such a strong point of contention on porn forums. Maybe they just need you to translate?

signupdamnit

The reasonable person test helps but it's not perfect. People have different ideas of what is and is not reasonable. The way I see it Zimmerman was acting as if he were a law enforcement officer. He put himself in the situation on common access property which he did not own and Trayvon Martin had a legal right to be there. At some point we need to limit this.

For example now in Florida as I understand it I can walk up to someone I don't like on public property with a bad temper and start insulting their mother. Once they punch me and especially if they get on top of me I can then pull out a handgun and blow them away while claiming "self defense". This is even more true if it's at night or if they are significantly larger than I.

We can't have a thousand Zimmerman's running around with 38s shooting every young black kid they see walking home from the store at night because they didn't say drop to the ground and roll over the first time the unidentified neighborhood watch guy demanded it. And I sure as hell do not want to be hassled myself. If I'm walking home and I see some guy following me around without identifying himself I'm going to be ready to fight too. If he walks up to me or touches me and it's the middle of the night I might punch him and take him to the ground too. I have no idea what he wants. It's self defense.

Let's switch it around. If you are walking through your neighborhood at night and a middle aged black man starts following you around to the point where you start running away what are you going to do if he finally catches up to you and without identifying who he is or what he wants he demands you "Stop!" or "freeze!" ? What would you do if he touches you or tries to grab you?

Now let's say your son or daughter was in the above situation. What would you tell them to do? Now imagine how Trayvon Martin felt.

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Rochard

It doesn't matter who was on top or who started it or why. I honestly believe that Martin punched Zimmerman first. But no matter, punching someone in the face and then wrestling on concrete does not justify deadly force - ever.

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_Richard_

didn't say what?

He was told not to follow. The operator explains why they gave the command as a 'suggestion', but it's a command

why we're talking about it.

TheSquealer

Wow.

Uhmmmm it can't be a command and a suggestion. It was clealy a suggestion and the operator made it extremely clear to the court that they don't give commands.

signupdamnit

Personally I can see where it might justify it. Especially at night and where you think the other guy is a criminal. Once you are knocked out or disabled you have no control over what else will happen to you. But at some point you need to be accountable for being wrong when you make such assumptions. And the same is true for putting yourself in that situation by acting as if you were a law enforcement officer.

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_Richard_

the operator also made it extremely clear why.

in any event, if the operator were to tell you to not touch an unresponsive person, and you do, you are legally liable. ie, command.

Tom_PM

"We do not require you to follow him" is hardly the same as "do not follow him"

If you had watched GZ the day after the incident when detectives brought him to the scene and recounted the events you would have seen GZ SAY out of his own mouth "they said not to follow him". So I submit that as evidence that *HE* knew they did not want him to follow. There is NO need to hash this out; he's said it himself.

By the way, the neighborhood watch captain who testified said it's their long standing instructions to members to NOT follow, but to call 911.

In addition to that, the officer who testified said if it had been him he would not follow without seeing him in the act of a crime.

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_Richard_

well that settles it..

TheSquealer

Hardly makes you any less mentally impaired to say "it was both a command and a suggestion"

How he recalled what was said, does not change what was said - nor does it change the meaning of what was said or negate the fact that it is again 100% irrelevant that the 911 operator told him to do anything.as it carries zero weight and zimmermans intention as heard on the 911 call was to follow him and giide police who had already been dispatched to Martin

Hardly the behavior of someone intent on committing murder.

theking

The way I understand Florida's self defense law is pretty much no matter the circumstances...who started what etc...or whether there are injuries or not...if at any time a "reasonable" person becomes in fear for his life or great bodily harm that person can apply self defense and use deadly force.

So the only real test for the use of deadly force...is if a reasonable person would become in fear for his life or great bodily harm.

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baddog

You are wasting your time; there are several here that had absolutely no comprehension of the English language, yet feel they can read a newspaper report and know all the facts.

Rochard

Zimmerman said it himself the day after on the police video.

You can call it a suggestion all you freaking want. But when a 911 operator "suggests" something to you, it's in your best interests to do it... If not you end up in a bad situation and end in court on murder charges...

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_Richard_

glad you're paying attention.

the charge is second degree murder, boy wonder.

_Richard_

how does one have no comprehension of the english language, yet read a newspaper?

Backing up the poa-leece again, are you?

surprising lol

TheSquealer

Uhmmmm ok?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

TheSquealer

This is you adding your meaning to what was said. The 911 operator himself testified that they don't give people commands and have no authority to tell people what to do.

Again , all 100% irrelevant and evidence already presented to the court that was heard and barely even acknowledged by either the defense or prosecution.

You are trying to portray it as something it's not, add meaning where there is none and refuse to simply watch the 911 operator say to the prosecutor, judge and jury that they don't give commands and have no authority to do so.

_Richard_

come on man, your intent is to convince us how superior you are

what could you possibly be confused about?

dyna mo

hah, your thread is nutty squealer. too bad i haven't stayed current on this case, i could have joined in the crazy fun! hahahah.

TheSquealer

Haha hardly. My intent is to discuss the facts. Not everyone's religios visions and nutty interpretations of common single and two syllable words.

_Richard_

know the definition of second degree murder?

TheSquealer

I posted it on page 10 dipshit along with some of the legal tests, definitions and legal commentary.

Tell whoever is reading and typing for you to find it.

Rochard

Sure thing. We are posting up direct quotes from the trial and entire videos....

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_Richard_

worlds a confusing place, eh?

baddog

No you are not.

Rochard

911 told him not to follow. This is standard procedure. The reason why is because they don't civilians playing police officer. And the reason why they don't want armed civilians playing police officer is because they they don't know what they are doing and they shot and kill innocent kids after being punched in the face.

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TheSquealer

Your usual bullshit.. Because you got nothing and when you actually try to talk about something., you either get owned immediately or own yourself....

Or was that your own retarded way of discussing the "depraved mind" requirement and its application to this case and whether or not the evidence presented satisfies that requirement in the mind of the judge and jury?

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

signupdamnit

Yes. The law is ridiculous. When it was created most people had in mind situations where someone is the victim of a home invasion or carjacking. Most people did not foresee this type of situation in a public place where a series of misunderstanding and mutual fear can lead to someone getting shot dead.

I live in an area which isn't the greatest and it's somewhat touristy so sometimes you get drunk people around who are complete strangers. There is a store right across the street and sometimes at night I will walk to the store. Sometimes, unfortunately, I encounter some shifty individuals between my home and the store. I remember once there was one guy who was clearly on something. I was armed. I keep my hand on my weapon and have it ready to go whenever I feel threatened. He came towards me and started mumbling something. I perceived him as a threat so I yelled at him to back away and not come any closer. Had he came closer I would have been ready to defend myself one way or another. I probably would have at least took out my weapon and I possibly would have used it depending on the situation such as if he tried to grab me, swing at me, pulled a knife, etc. That's just how it is. There are gray areas. You don't want to lose control of the situation and allowing someone like that to get in close range would have been a mistake which arguably could have been fatal for me if he was a bad person up to no good.

He was probably just a drunk bum asking me for a quarter and he probably wanted to shake my hand in order to increase the odds that I would give it to him. But how did I know that? I used my wits and instead of pulling out a firearm and blowing him away I first demanded that he step back and stay away. He did so and apologized. Great. But just as easily he could have been too messed up and it may have ended differently. If I shot him and it was all just a misunderstanding where he was unarmed and with no criminal record I would have been ready to take personal responsibility for that. It was my choice. I made the wrong call and I overreacted.

You have to protect yourself but you can't be stupid either and if you are you should pay the price. Zimmerman was being stupid and a kid is dead for it. Even if that kid was being a bit stupid himself. There needs to be a price. There needs to be a deterrent to blowing people away every time you feel threatened or you get in a questionable position. This isn't Texas in 1834.

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TheSquealer

That's not what was said - that's your interpretation of what was said. Once again - that evidence was heard, the testimony was given, that witness was cross examined and NO ONE has given this supposed fact, the weight that you are.

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

_Richard_

if it's a second degree murder charge, intent has nothing to do with it.

but you know this, cause of all the legal mumbo jumbo you posted

Rochard

Zimmerman himself said on the video that he was told not to follow.

911 might not have the authority to tell you jack shit, but when you don't listen to them... Well, you take matters into your hands.

This is what happens when you send armed cilivians with a chip on their shoulders to do a police officer's job.

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Rochard

Nicely said.

Just imagine if someone got shot and killed every time a punch was thrown.

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TheSquealer

I didn't say it did you fucking moron. In fact, I referenced the relevant part which is establishing he is of depraved mind.

Before you do your usual cop out of cutting and pasting what I said out of context in your usual tactic of misdirection in the absence of anything intelligent to say, you re-read what I said and attempt to understand the context in which the word "intent" was used. It was not used in reference to the charge, it
Was used in reference to a conversation.

Not sure how it could have all been spelled out so clearly and you are still to fucking stupid to understand what was said

_Richard_

can't decide..



or

TheSquealer

Typical you. You can't talk without looking stupid so you rightfully avoid saying anything at all, if and when you can.

Honestly, I don't blame you.

_Richard_

dude im running out of laughing gifs..

the charge is second degree murder. no 'intent' necessary.

insults might work in the cave you're from, but for the rest of the world..

Rochard

I don't think Zimmerman had any bad intent that night. He was overzealous and mishandled the event from the beginning. He only wanted to protect his neighborhood. But he got in way over his head.

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TheSquealer

Knew you couldn't resist. Holy shit, I called it... You then did it. You are such a simpleton. Out of context quote.

Once again you dumb fucking dildo, I was talking to Rochard about his state of mind,, not taking about the legal tests for 2nd degree murder in the state of Florida. Not too shocking that once again you have zero ability to understand simple facts.

That's twice I've had to explain it to you in addition to pointing you to a post where I posted the tests to be satisfied and highlighted the relevant parts.

I don't know that I can domore than that to help you understand something so simple.

Tell your caretaker to loosen the chin strap on your helmet. It seems to be choking your brain off for oxygen.

_Richard_

I am not sure what he wanted. The idea/suggestion that he only wanted to 'protect his neighbourhood', seems bizarre, considering how it turned out.

However, it's fairly obvious that there was no premeditation

_Richard_

was she blonde?

TheSquealer

I think we agree far more than we disagree.

My personal interest is 1) he was tried and found guilty in the media from day 1. I mean media outlets were doctoring the 911 call to make it sound like something it wasn't (CNN).... race became a huge component - causing a massive outrage even though it plays no demonstrable role and so on. 2) after that conviction in the media, no amount of facts or evidence seems to sway anyones opinion. This is basically a local news story that should have never got national attention. If it was two black guys, we'd never know it happened.

As i said from the start,... what seems to be the simple truth is that two low rent assholes collided in the night and someone got shot. Nothing makes that ok. It's not ok that someone died. Its not a good thing. But the very fact that someone got shot does not automatically mean that only one party has blood on his hands and bears 100% of the responsibility for how events unfolded and came to that final moment. I don't see how either party is innocent. However, I don't see how Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder under Florida statutes and obviously, i'm not an attorney... so i was curious to see the facts, the witness testimony see how the case was going to be made. Seems very odd they didn't go after him for manslaughter.

It all became more interesting to me recently as the prosecution fucked it up from the opening remarks and then seemed only to slide downhill from there.

I was listening to attorney Mark Geragos,. and he is probably right in that there is a strong possibility the prosecution is not going all out because they just want the appearance of trying Zimmerman and the fact is that Zimmerman is only being tried for murder, cause of the public outcry, the involvement of the governor etc... not because of the facts. The police and DA initially had no plans to charge him with anything at all and found his story credible and consistent with the facts.

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

_Richard_

brunette.

TheSquealer

Interesting that you can wake up every day and make being a failure a full time ambition. I'd make fun of you for it... but quite frankly, you do it perfectly and I can at least admire your dedication to such flawless execution.

Tell us what happened Richard

Who did it?

What was it exactly?

What happened to you that made you feel so incredibly small and useless?

What destroyed your confidence and self esteem?

What made you feel so weak, that you dedicate 18 hrs a day to snarky, snide one liner bullshit to attempt to build yourself up and keep yourself from feeling so small?

It's usually 1 or more of the following:

1) Physical abuse
2) Emotional abuse
3) Sexual abuse

Care to share? Lets help you get well again and help you find some sort of happiness in life that doesn't involve a dysfunctional, incessant bashing of the USA or constantly taking the losing side of any and every argument that happens on this forum, without actually articulating a point.

You said something very telling earlier... That i feel like i'm better than everyone. You indicated that was your motivation. The interesting thing is that you would not pick up on that unless you felt like you were worse than everyone. In other words, someone with high self esteem would not notice that. Rochard for example, will not lose a minutes sleep over me, what i say or even what insults go back and forth because he is secure with who he is and confident. You on the other hand,... not so much.

So what happened to you?

What happened in your life/childhood that made you feel so weak and tiny?

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

_Richard_

strawberry blonde!

actually, i apologize. back to your thread.

Rochard

Race never played an issue in this from my point of view.

The main issue for me is that Zimmerman's wounds were not life threatening. This was a fist fight where the guy on the loosing end shot and killed someone.

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Jel

it has nothing to do with wounds. If I point a gun at you, are you in fear of your life? Even though at that point you have received no wound?

ps can't believe I'm actually falling for your trolling and repeatedly pointing this out, I'm an idiot sometimes that's for damn sure - well played

Rochard

I'm not trolling, I'm debating. There's a difference.

There is also a huge difference between someone pointing a gun at you and someone punching you in the lips. The threat of a gun instantly implies deadly force. Someone punching me in the face does not.

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Rochard

I don't take any of this seriously. It's debating on a message board.

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Jel

A total stranger is on top of you, hitting you in the face, and during this fight, regardless of who started it, you know for sure this guy isn't a madman who is going to stop? In amongst all your bodies' physiological and biochemical reactions?

Damn, that training down at the marines is some hot shit

johnnyloadproductions

The most sane and rational in this thread:

In no particular order, baddog, TheSquealer, L-Pink.

The most delusional, a distant second, tony286, and a dominating first, Rochard. I've actually had to reevaluate some of my opinions after reading some of the posts by the posters' showing poor reasoning abilities.