Jose Cuervo did it, why can't we?

For those that think taxes limit freedom:

Freedom requires certain things. For instance food, so you can stay alive. And a house, so you have a place to sleep, rest, study or do work. And ofcourse chances at a good education, so with hard work you can enhance your knowledge and find jobs. But medical care is essential as well, so your freedom is not taken away by illness. And physical protection is obviously just as essential, since without it anyone with bad intent can just take your freedom away.

Now, if people are entitled to freedom, they must also be entitled to those things - otherwise, they don't have freedom at all.

Now, taxes take away a certain amount of freedom. However, the freedom that can be provided when using them to fill the basic needs of all is much greater.

Note that I'm not talking about equal redistribution of all goods - just about filling the basic needs of those who need it.

Problem is, I see people who live on welfare with no ambitions whatsoever to better themselves. 5 kids - have one more and your checks get bigger. The system breeds reliance on the system.

My girlfriend worked at a grocery store until recently, and she told me daily about people who would come in with really nice clothes, obviously freshly salon done hair and nails, who pay with food stamps. No big deal really so far, but then for the non-food items which the gov't doesn't cover, they pull out a wad of hundreds to pay for their paper plates.

Another case, she overheard a girl considering getting a job, who decided against it upon hearing she'd lose eligibility for section 8 housing.

If we cut these people off for all but the hardest cases, they will be forced to get jobs. McDonalds is always hiring.

That's why the system should change. More checking should be done before someone gets social benefits, and people receiving those benefits should be forced to find work if at all possible.

While I do not mind paying three quarters of my income to supply those who really need it with the basics, I do mind paying even a single cent for those that are too lazy to work. That speaks for itself.

You think too much dude.

http://www.vladi-private-islands.de/...6_clark_1.html


some of these islands come pre-owned and already developed.

And think about it..... at $50k x 50 webmasters, that's 2.5 mil. I think we'd be able to run a fucking cable out and build a few dozen nice cabins. Probably have enough to buy a nice cabin cruiser too, for those monthly trips to the mainland.

Haven't you seen Cool Runnings? :1orglaugh

Better than thinking too little.

Not in this case. Already-developed islands are the only way to go these days. Sheesh, I thought this was common knowledge!

That island has virtually nothing. You'd probably need US$15-20 million just to get started with 50 homes.

Think about what just the logistics of construction would cost.

Homes. Man you are so negative. Are you this negative about everything?

That's just ONE island. There are thousands for sale out there, and around the world. Thousands. Some have near-resorts already built, some have nothing. It all depends on what you want.


And in many of these countries, a couple of mil goes a LONG way towards getting things built.


And i said "cabins"... not homes. Think positive. And try to dream WITH, not against. Just try. Once.

You are definitely dreaming that's for sure...

Now I'm going to sleep to dream pleasant dreams of a presidential assasination....

Sorry, when I hear negativity, I react.


Pleasant dreams mite.

How silly. I don't own 10 cars but I'm taxed as if I did. The poor should go get a job.

No, just as long as they give it all to the undeserving.
that's not a desision you get to make.
No its not, its about those who need it going out and earning it.

how good of you to not mind success.

yes, by those who need getting a job.

wrong. Let the poor starve and eventually they'll understand they have to go get a job. The rich don't need leeches, they need productive members of society.

what socialist clap trap!
Are you saying that the rich all had ancestors who were born shitting gold?
Or did their ancestors earn it.

incorrect. again.
most people being taxed at the *rich* tax rate made their money by earning it. It might be a comfort to you to think rich people had a leg up on you but it just isn't true.

You need to get out of whatever liberal college is teaching you this shit before you're ruined for life.:1orglaugh

It is my understanding that the largest group of poor in the USA are the working poor. It is also my understanding that it is this group that receive the bulk of government subsidies of one type or another. The bulk of the poor have jobs but the employers are not required to may a livable wage. The current minimum wage is actually worth less than the minimum wage of thirty years ago, so the working poor are poorer than they were thirty years ago.

It is also my understanding that when the government puts out its employment stats they consider anyone that is employed 20 hours per week as being employed.

Noone is saying you don't pay a lot of taxes. The thing is you're not paying taxes on a lot of money that you could/should be paying. Noone is saying you don't pay a lot in taxes, but we get more tax breaks and tax offsets than the poor do. So, I have no problem giving some breaks back to 'the working poor'. The lazy poor is a different subject.

When you say something over simplistic...expect the same type of response.

You seem to have no grasp whatsoever of the way things are in this world.


First of all, let me start with your idea that the rich are rich because they earned it, and not because of chances given to them.

A good education helps in getting a good job, right?
Take a quick look at what tuition is for colleges like Harvard, Yale, Princeton.

Having some start-up money helps in setting up a company, right?
Parents tend to lend their children money for such things. For instance, some friends of mine just got $50k from their parents for starting up their own company. Also, banks will be much more likely to lend money to you if you have rich parents.

Having a good social network helps becoming succesful in life, right?
Having your parents give you a position in their company works wonders. Joining a good fraternity (contribution: a few k $ per year) in college works wonders. Having your father play golf with the owner of a company you want to work in works wonders.

Now, you say their parents or ancestors <b>earned</b> it. So? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? My great grandfather died while fighting the nazi's, does that make me a hero?


Now, you seem to think the poor are all lazy people that are unwilling to work. Bullshit. There are plenty people working 10 hours a day every day at minimum wage just to be able to eat at night.

Besides that, do you really think everyone without a job does not want one?
I know many people who are looking for jobs all day, every day but are unable to find anything. So, should they all just starve just so you <b>can</b> buy that 10th car?


I personally have never been in any financial trouble in my life, and most likely never will be. However, I'm not so much of an asshole that I will whine about having to pay taxes that are necessary to feed the poor.

SOCIALISM WORKS!

All you have to do is look at the world and notice how many socialist countries are doing great.

btw, I always wonder how many liberals telling us we don't take care of poor people enough are sitting in their 4 bedroom house, typing it on one of their 5 computers and wondering which of their three cars they'll take to the store to pick up lobster for next weekends dinner party.

I always wonder why people think that if you give a fuck about the lives of other people, you must be a socialist.

(btw, I only have 3 computers here under my desk, and prefer roast beef and steak over lobster)

You're not a socialist for caring about other people.

You are one for thinking that everything should be redistributed for no reason other than some people work harder than others and have more toys.

There is no point to wealth redistribution. Take two people. One works hard, invests his money back into himself somehow to help him advance. The other is flat broke and pisses his money away on stupid shit.

Take all their toys away and give them $20,000. In one year, the first person will be doing okay and back on his way to doing really well. He will either have a small business or be going to school, or both. The other person will have a big screen TV, surround sound, 4 new game systems with 100 games, and a mountain of beer cans in his backyard.

Do we take all their goodies away AGAIN and redistribute the wealth once more?

100 BIATCH!

And again.... we are to let YOU decide what is "extra wealth" ?

You will dive into the personal life of anyone YOU think might be working too hard, making too much money and see what they spend it on - so YOU can decide how much you'll take away to give to the bum on the street corner?

NAture calles it survival of the fittest - EVERY TIME we go againt nature we fuck up - you are going againt nature - Man will ALWAYS strive to better himself - as long as there is a benefit - YOU want to take that away foolish one ?

Everything you suggest has been tried - we called it communism - it failed.... as I said before - you can make it look good on paper - but that is all.

beside - DREAM ON

The working poor do work hard and they do not have disposable income, which it is my understanding constitutes the majority of the poor in the USA. Depending upon which study one relies upon the current minimum wage of today would have to be between $8.00-$10.50 per hour to be equivilent to the minimum wage of years past and of course the minimum wage has never really been a livable wage.

Ok, I've had enough of your stupidity. Go get a brain transplant, you fucking moron.
If intelligence is hereditary, you are living evidence that the evolution theory has some serious flaws.

What I suggest has pretty much been tried, we call it European countries like the Netherlands. You can make it look good on paper, and... that's not all. It pretty much works.

There is more to this world than just pure capitalism and communism, dimwit.

No creature on Earth is "entitled" is anything....

You want food - you grow it or you kill it. You want a house, you build one - and from there we left the caves and nothing has changed since.

ALL creatures make make their own home. It is foolish to place man outside of nature.

I can't imagine the horrors of a society like you describe....

We would ALL have cars and other "quality" products like those that came from communist Russia?

Ohhhh - I wish I could have lived there!!!!!

Yeah... and your Mother.

Till now you are amusing at best....

Now you are a sick mother fucker who should be shipped off to Iraq for target practice for the rape squads.....

:321GFY

So, humans are not entitled to anything?
There is nothing wrong with it if I stab you to death and take your belongings?
That's morally acceptable?

Oh, by the way, the law of nature which you seem so fond of has been proven many years ago. Ever heard of the gap between "is" and "ought" and the <a href="http://www.cuyamaca.net/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/naturalistic.asp" target="_blank">naturalistic fallacy</a>? Do some reading, you might learn something.

As for the rich paying taxes...

I will use three of my friends for example. Two are worth several millions of dollars each They are self made, as they came from working class families and they both were working class, but the companies that they worked for provided an income that left them with a certain amount of disposable money and they invested wisely in one thing or another and grew their wealth. The other friend is a doctor (general practice). He is not worth the several million that the other two friends are. He spends his money about as fast as it comes in on one thing or another. He pays taxes on about $300,000.00 per year. He pays substantially more personal income tax then the two millionaire friends do because of the way the two millionaire friends have their income structured (neither use creative accounting other that what is legal).

It is my understanding that the Liberal cry babies defined "Working Poor"

Here in America, many of those defined "working poor" have 2 TV's, a cell phone, 1.5 cars, go on vacation every 2.5 years, goes out to eat every 12 days and sees a movie once every 2 months.

And hate communism

Get Real Man.....

Taxes and tax laws have changed since the days of Howard Hughe (spelling) but as some may recall he was a billionaire and according to a book that I just recently read written by Noah Dietriech he paid personal income tax on $50,000.00 per year.

You keep bringing up communism. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a "communist" nation in the history of the world.

In addition you can buy a TV, a cell phone, and 1.5 cars combined for less than $1000.00 so what is your point? If it is the poor are not poor then try again.

Well of course not you silly fucker....

Not being "entitled" to a steak dinner or 10% of my money has nothing to do with anybody killing anyone - or for theft.

(Kinda of a stupid question huh?)

Besides if you did - then my tribe would kick your tribe's ass.

We are stong - we worked for everything we have.

Your tribe will be weak - Half of them lay around, living off the work of the others - (who are starting to get tied of the lazy bastards so they're fight amongst themselves....)


See... it wouldn't even work in cave man days.....




:1orglaugh

Yeah - like you said - times have changed....

Tell me - in your "world"

How does a "poor" man go about advancing himself? - God forbid he has desires of being rich someday?

And also - Why is it YOU get to give away what YOU have defined as my "excess wealth"?

If you do - What will I use to give to the things I want to give to - like my church or my kid's school?

You want to take away any right I have to give away my own excess wealth? - Europe works that way? :eek7

Whatever people. Fact is, well, I have two points to offer at this time.

1) Everyone has or should have some basic rights, yes. No need to stretch anyone's meaning to severely warped levels guys, no one is saying that people should be able to kill one another freely. But one of those basic rights is to be resourceful, to find other ways of earning income (Other than working for min. wage), the right to work oneself out of poverty.


2) There are people that came from the lower income brackets that have actually done quite well for themselves. Take the people who have no rich parents to send them to college, but they get a job bartending or bussing tables and they pay their tuition and eventually earn their degree and GET that higher paying job. Or what about a guy like me who began working for LESS than minimum wage back in the early 80's.... a thing that heppens when one works for family sometimes........ then worked for minimum wage for 4 years, after which I worked in the health care field for 15 years. During that time I tried several other ventures, everything from painting houses on the side to providing security for large outdoor rock festivals. I also ran a network marketing business out of my home, and it was that business that taught me to WORK SMARTER, not harder.

That is one of the fundamental reasons why I chose to start websites. If run properly, websites can do much of the work FOR you. Does a website not earn you money while you sleep? yes, it does. SO.... my second point is that everyone in a free society is free to get off their fat fucking brokeass hamhock-draggin-asses and go find a way to get out of the rut they're in. Everyone has the right to do that.

What they do NOT have the right to do (except under a communist flag) is to tell me that because I am now more successful that I have to part with a larger share of my earnings to support those that refuse to excersise the right I just mentioned. I'm all for helping other motivated people, but there are too many crapsuckers out there who just want to do the minimum and get paid the maximum.

Pure socialism sucks. It takes away the drive to succeed, because what's the point in succeeding? Your success is just taken away and re-distributed to those that didn't earn it. Let's be a country of sheep. Weeeee.

ok squirrelly. here you go.

please back this simplistic statement up with some facts.
What money am I not paying taxes on that I should be?

No we don't. as in the example, many many poor pay no income tax.

the working poor get tax breaks EVERY single time there is one to be given out. Giving a tax break across the board is the issue and when it isn't done that way its no different than state sanctioned theft.

So how are you going to keep it up?? Even if the infastructure is in place, you will have to pay someone to maintain it. So if 12Clicks takes more shits then you and plugs up the system, who pays??

Also since you are all so rich and the idol of all (cough, cough) who is going to protect your shores. All of you?? So when will you have time to work??

Nice daydream. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

It seems like you continue missing the point so utterly and completely, that there is little sense in arguing with you.

If it is a bad thing when people kill you and take your belongings, there must be a reason for that. Maybe it's that you are entitled to life? Now, aren't you entitled to freedom as well?


(as for your tribe-example: do you realize you are spouting complete nonsense which has nothing to do with anything whatsoever in this discussion?)

People who lack the ability to dream are people I would rather have servicing my sewage system than actually associating with.



People who laugh and scoff at the dreams of others deserve ziltch.

In my world, I was the son of a career soldier. After my fathers death I was raised by a man that was a career soldier. My father was not very well off financially, but the man that raised me was and he became that way off of a soldiers pay and a lifetime of investing in one thing or another (primarily properties). I too entered the military with the intentions of being a career soldier, but after 12 years of service the first gulf war brought my days of being a soldier to an end. I followed the advice of the man that raised me (not as well as he would have liked) and I too am reasonably well off and pay a substantial amount in taxes.

Just as the man that raised me was proud to pay taxes, I too am proud to pay taxes. It is what has helped to make this country a great place to live. I use an accountant and I leave it up to him too see that I do not have to pay any more taxes than I am legally liable for (I will not allow any "creative" accounting), but I do not begrudge my fair share of taxes. I have been and I still am 100% against Bush's tax cuts. I am for government managing the tax dollars better than what they do, but that day will probably never come.

So it is not your money that I am talking about, it is my money too and I certainly do not begrudge my money being used to help those that are less fortunate than I for whatever the reasons may be that they walk in the shoes they walk in or bed that they may have made for themselves. There are many reasons why not everyone can be sucessful (financially or other wise) in life. Not everyone is born equal, period.

Didn't say you are a fuckwad but you seem to be proving it now.

I asked how you are going to keep everything up??

Taxes are the only way to make it fair to all. Or is you plan to have a committee and decide who took the dump and plugged up the system and then has to fix it.

Problem with having me do it, I won't be living on Fantasy Island. I will be here in the states, where I will at least have an income. And troops to protect my shores. When we see you are too rich, I am sure our Prez will dream up some terrorist scheme and invade your beach, kick your ass and then come home and tell us how it seemed like Iraq.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh