Wealth Inequality in America

[AllAboutCams]

Good video

[TheSquealer]

Strange.... many 1000s and 1000s of years of people bitching about economic inequality and somehow this "problem" is never solved.

Almost seems as if the defining difference lies in the individuals and their own hard work and determination to succeed. Of course that can't be right because the Liberal mind wants people to think we're all exactly the same and perfectly equal and if someone got rich, they did it by taking advantage of poor people.

Also strange that every attempt to create economic equality among the masses, failed miserably.

[Barry-xlovecam]

There will never be equality in income other that in some limited socialist egalitarian communities.

The only goal that may be achievable is a more equitable income for what you produce.

Should a unskilled laborer receive the same income as a person who studied and earned a doctoral degree for instance?

[TheSquealer]

And by the way... who really wants to argue about rich people getting richer? The only people doing that are poor people. Is something stopping them from saving money, being responsible, starting a business? Anything stopping people from educating themselves, working harder, making money, saving money and investing well? Of course not. Just like nothing is stopping people from using high interest credit cards, check cashing places, payday loans, renting 24" wheels, spending money on gold chains and gold teeth, buying bottles in the club etc etc etc.

How many excuses do we hear from Bill Gates? How much blame does Marc Cuban lay elsewhere for his failures? Who is Warren Buffet blaming? hm....

[Thor]

Originally Posted by AllAboutCams

Good video

what a surprise the poor and lazy want to have the hard working peoples money, nothing new here

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Thor

what a surprise the poor and lazy want to have the hard working peoples money, nothing new here

Also, the people pointing out that nothing is fair in this respect...uhm... never giving away all their money to better the lives of others. Like Bono from U2 telling us how much economic injustice there is in the world while his net worth is $700,000,000.00 USD from the comfort of his 60 million dollar private jet or from the den of one of his mansions.

"Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- During the final concert of U2's world tour on Dec. 9, Bono, the Irish rock band's lead singer, launched into ``One,'' a song about a love affair gone sour. ``Did I disappoint you or leave a bad taste in your mouth?'' he sang to 47,000 U2 fans at Aloha Stadium in Honolulu.

At Bono's command, some of the fans held aloft their cell phones and sent text messages of support to ONE, the U.S.-based group that's lobbying the U.S. government to donate an additional 1 percent of the federal budget to ending poverty.

Bono made the same tie-in for the lobbying group during most of the 131 concerts on the Vertigo tour, which began in March 2005 and was seen by 4.6 million fans in Europe, North America and Asia. They sent about 500,000 text messages of support to ONE, according to the group.

While Bono was making his appeal, U2 was racking up $389 million in gross ticket receipts, making Vertigo the second-most lucrative tour of all time, according to Billboard magazine. No. 1 is the Rolling Stones' current tour, which by the end of 2006 had received $425 million.

Revenue from the Vertigo tour is funneled through companies that are mostly registered in Ireland and structured to minimize taxes. ``U2 are arch-capitalists -- arch-capitalists -- but it looks as if they're not,'' says Jim Aiken, a music promoter who helped stage U2 concerts in Ireland during the 1980s and 1990s."

[Rochard]

Your success in life is based on your drive and motivation.

My cousin Zachary is the perfect example. He is Hispanic, he never met his father, his mother re-married to my brother in law who then promptly died. The mother was a complete and total mess, a single mother raising two kids in a one bedroom apartment. Eventually she got involved with another man and had two more kids; They never married or so much lived together.

Somehow through all of this my cousin Zachary kept good grades, and went straight onto college. He worked full time at Nordstrom's (selling shoes) and Bank Of America (teller) and at the same time worked in the admissions office to pay down his student loan AND was dorm supervisor so he could live on campus rent free.

He's twenty-six years old, came out of college with perfect grades in accounting, school loan paid off, and landed his dream job working for Intel making hundreds of thousands a year.

How well you do in live depends on how much effort you put into it.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

And by the way... who really wants to argue about rich people getting richer? The only people doing that are poor people. Is something stopping them from saving money, being responsible, starting a business? Anything stopping people from educating themselves, working harder, making money, saving money and investing well? Of course not. Just like nothing is stopping people from using high interest credit cards, check cashing places, payday loans, renting 24" wheels, spending money on gold chains and gold teeth, buying bottles in the club etc etc etc.

How many excuses do we hear from Bill Gates? How much blame does Marc Cuban lay elsewhere for his failures? Who is Warren Buffet blaming? hm....

obviously some people have have much better surrounding circumstances that allow them the opportunities to achieve success a lot more than others. if everyone was allowed a fair and even start, then success would be based truly upon the individuals merits. currently, it is not. i am not proposing any changes, just stating how it is.

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

And by the way... who really wants to argue about rich people getting richer? The only people doing that are poor people. Is something stopping them from saving money, being responsible, starting a business? Anything stopping people from educating themselves, working harder, making money, saving money and investing well? Of course not. Just like nothing is stopping people from using high interest credit cards, check cashing places, payday loans, renting 24" wheels, spending money on gold chains and gold teeth, buying bottles in the club etc etc etc.

How many excuses do we hear from Bill Gates? How much blame does Marc Cuban lay elsewhere for his failures? Who is Warren Buffet blaming? hm....

You know what stops them? No money.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Thor

what a surprise the poor and lazy want to have the hard working peoples money, nothing new here

I had to break it to you tough guy, but the so called 1% he is listing are not guys that got there by their own hard work. They are almost always trust fund babies that have had money in their family for generations.

The handful of new comers that that kind of money are very rare examples like Bill Gates & the Google guys and I'm pretty sure non of them came from a family living in poverty.

[Matt 26z]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Anything stopping people from educating themselves, working harder, making money, saving money and investing well? Of course not.

Those in the middle class can do this, but down in the dumps none of this is possible to a realistic degree. It can happen, but it's a pretty extraordinary story when someone is able to rise up out of that.

[xNetworx]

Most people will never advance from the class they are born into. If you are born rich, you will likely die rich. Born poor, die poor. True story bro.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by StinkyPink

You know what stops them? No money.

Yeah right - anyone that knows anything about construction knows full well that any non English speaking, broke, uneducated moron can stand in front of Home Depot and be employed for 10-20.00 per hour within a day. You just have to be willing to work and want it.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Yeah right - anyone that knows anything about construction knows full well that any non English speaking, broke, uneducated moron can stand in front of Home Depot and be employed for 10-20.00 per hour within a day. You just have to be willing to work and want it.

I don't think that being willing to work has anything to do with it. It's more about having the mind set to pull your self out of that situation.

Back when I was in FL there used to be places they called day labor. You could go there get someone to work for you by the day for a set price.

Granted you weren't going to find over achievers there, but in most cases they would work because they wanted money. (usually beer money).

In most cases they likely weren't in the position of having to work in that kind of job because they were lazy, but rather they were drunks or simply not capable of getting their selves out of that situation.

I think many of you that seem to think that just because someone is poor means they are lazy welfare queens really need a reality check. There are many hard working poor people but most of them have no clue how to get out of that position.

[beemk]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Yeah right - anyone that knows anything about construction knows full well that any non English speaking, broke, uneducated moron can stand in front of Home Depot and be employed for 10-20.00 per hour within a day. You just have to be willing to work and want it.

He is right about no money. The reason they have no money is the same reason all of the poor people I know have no money. Instead of investing their $ into their future they blow it all on cigarettes, booze, shopping, etc as soon as they get it. They really have no excuse for not educating themselves. Anyone can get a library card and go read books for free.

[CyberHustler]

Nowhere is this inequality more evident than in my old hood, the south Bronx, the poorest congressional district in America where we get to look at Manhattan right across the river and witness the illegals come here and take the jobs we could have had. I thank Allah I learned my way around the internet.

[Biggy]

There is a government system that calls for 100% income equality - its called communism, and unfortunately when you take that route, you end up with even more income inequality because you put the power in a few, who end up ripe for corruption. Becoming more socialist also creates the same issues. You expand the government, and then the people that control the government, control all that $ and end up ripe for corruption.

If you want a better distribution of income, in my opinion, you create a simpler tax code that applies to everyone and makes sense. You close blatant loopholes in addition to other idiotic taxes that enables government spending + specialist groups, and reduce the size of the government, freeing the reigns for people to truly be free in an open society. Then you let everyone compete for what they want and let the cards fall where they will. Some people are better at making $ than others, not everyone is the same or "equal."

It will never happen. Too many people invested in the current system. and people fear real change. even if something was truly good for them long term, they wouldn't even know it. Right now most people take on side or the other. You could blame tax loopholes just as much as you can explain idiotic taxes that flow directly to more government spending + private individuals. Any time the gov't is interfering, we become less free / transparent / open, and thats bad for everyone except the special few.

[Supz]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Strange.... many 1000s and 1000s of years of people bitching about economic inequality and somehow this "problem" is never solved.

Almost seems as if the defining difference lies in the individuals and their own hard work and determination to succeed. Of course that can't be right because the Liberal mind wants people to think we're all exactly the same and perfectly equal and if someone got rich, they did it by taking advantage of poor people.

Also strange that every attempt to create economic equality among the masses, failed miserably.

The only way to solve economic equality is to make every poor. There are to many lazy people out there that would never have money and want to live off the government.

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Yeah right - anyone that knows anything about construction knows full well that any non English speaking, broke, uneducated moron can stand in front of Home Depot and be employed for 10-20.00 per hour within a day. You just have to be willing to work and want it.

Cause every fucking city and town in America has a Home Depot.

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by beemk

He is right about no money. The reason they have no money is the same reason all of the poor people I know have no money. Instead of investing their $ into their future they blow it all on cigarettes, booze, shopping, etc as soon as they get it. They really have no excuse for not educating themselves. Anyone can get a library card and go read books for free.

If they are poor then what money do you want them to invest?

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by StinkyPink

Cause every fucking city and town in America has a Home Depot.

I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised that the point (and undeniable fact) flew right over your head

[Cherry7]

Very little social mobility, born poor die poor, born rich die rich.

Societies with less inequality are happier and more at peace.

The Communist coutries were very equal and that is why the Communist parties in the East still are popular. Everyone had a job, house, heating, school and health care.

USA richest society ever, where children go to school hungry.

[VS_Jeff]

Originally Posted by crockett

I had to break it to you tough guy, but the so called 1% he is listing are not guys that got there by their own hard work. They are almost always trust fund babies that have had money in their family for generations.

The handful of new comers that that kind of money are very rare examples like Bill Gates & the Google guys and I'm pretty sure non of them came from a family living in poverty.

You said that they are "almost always trust fund babies," then you give examples of people who are not trust fund babies. I'm pretty sure that people like Oprah (born into poverty) would disagree. I'd be curious to see a list of the top 1% that compares the distribution.

[georgeyw]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

And by the way... who really wants to argue about rich people getting richer? The only people doing that are poor people. Is something stopping them from saving money, being responsible, starting a business? Anything stopping people from educating themselves, working harder, making money, saving money and investing well? Of course not. Just like nothing is stopping people from using high interest credit cards, check cashing places, payday loans, renting 24" wheels, spending money on gold chains and gold teeth, buying bottles in the club etc etc etc.

How many excuses do we hear from Bill Gates? How much blame does Marc Cuban lay elsewhere for his failures? Who is Warren Buffet blaming? hm....

Must be tough, the burden on one who knows everything. Or is that thinks they know everything?

All of your views are always condescending - put people down to elevate your own ego....

[tony286]

Remember in a consumer driven economy if no one can afford to consume it doesn't work. And to think well they all must be lazy is very short sighted.

[2012]

probably just some conspiracy theory

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

The Communist coutries were very equal and that is why the Communist parties in the East still are popular. Everyone had a job, house, heating, school and health care.

lol

you mean everyone had a little and just the communist party members had a little more?

and when you complained you got locked away or shot when you tried to flee the country?

but i agree - the communist parties are still popular among former communists cause they miss their relatively comfortable life on the backs of the rest of the population

[Sly]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

lol

you mean everyone had a little and just the communist party members had a little more?

and when you complained you got locked away or shot when you tried to flee the country?

but i agree - the communist parties are still popular among former communists cause they miss their relatively comfortable life on the backs of the rest of the population

From my understanding, in a Communist-based society, you are in an upper-class based on family or good friends. You can't earn better ranking. And of course the upper-class gets better jobs, better perks, and more freedom.

The "everyone is equal" idea is total BS and it's close to impossible to earn a better stature. Yeah, that sounds really attractive. Work your ass off with no possibility of gaining, while the family/friend-based upper-class laughs at you. Where do I sign up?

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

lol

you mean everyone had a little and just the communist party members had a little more?

and when you complained you got locked away or shot when you tried to flee the country?

but i agree - the communist parties are still popular among former communists cause they miss their relatively comfortable life on the backs of the rest of the population

Always amusing to read what people write about a society they never lived in, basing their opinions on what their governments propaganda told them.

The best paid people in the socialist countries were often worker in heavy industry and miners, the members of the Communist party and state lived modestly.

Even though the whole of the Socialist block was a lot poorer than the West children did not go to school hungry.

Here and in the US, 20 years after the fall of communism capitalism still fails to give a normal life to its citizens.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Always amusing to read what people write about a society they never lived in, basing their opinions on what their governments propaganda told them.

The best paid people in the socialist countries were often worker in heavy industry and miners, the members of the Communist party and state lived modestly.

Even though the whole of the Socialist block was a lot poorer than the West children did not go to school hungry.

Here and in the US, 20 years after the fall of communism capitalism still fails to give a normal life to its citizens.

and what propaganda have you based your opinion on?

[sperbonzo]

INCLUDING the poorest people in the US, our population ALL fall in the top 30% of income in the world. The average middle class person in the US is in the top 8% in the world.

I guess it's time for the other 92% of the world to rise up and take all the shit in the US for themselves, from the rest of you 8%ers....



.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

Always amusing to read what people write about a society they never lived in, basing their opinions on what their governments propaganda told them.

The best paid people in the socialist countries were often worker in heavy industry and miners, the members of the Communist party and state lived modestly.

Even though the whole of the Socialist block was a lot poorer than the West children did not go to school hungry.

Here and in the US, 20 years after the fall of communism capitalism still fails to give a normal life to its citizens.

my "propaganda" is my ex GF that is eastern german and grew up in the DDR

but i didnt expect any other answer from you anyways

PS: do you deny that people got put in jail (and sometimes executed up to the 1970ties) for political reasons?

or that hundreds of people were shot for trying to leave?

[PR_Phil]

Originally Posted by crockett

I had to break it to you tough guy, but the so called 1% he is listing are not guys that got there by their own hard work. They are almost always trust fund babies that have had money in their family for generations.

The handful of new comers that that kind of money are very rare examples like Bill Gates & the Google guys and I'm pretty sure non of them came from a family living in poverty.

wrong, there is more new money around than ever. The conspiracy theorists around here like to think there is only old money and old money runs the world, but there is a hell of a lot of new money, more than every, it is easier to become a billionaire than ever, (not saying I'm on the verge of doing it or anything).

Warren Buffet - came from some money, but is no trust fund baby, started working at 8 years old!

Gates - parents had money, but not rich

Zuckerberg - parents had money, not rich

Steve Jobs - was adopted by a mechanic

Sheldon Alderson (owns the venetian hotel, he is worth 20 billion) - born dirt poor

Jay Z, Puff Daddy / PDiddy???, 50 cent, Eminem, kid Rock - Each worth a couple hundred million plus, none started out rich.

Jean Paul DeJoria (owns Paul Mitchell hair products) was homeless at 30 years old, after quitting the navy, borrowed $700 (yes seven hundred) and turned it into 4 Billion

Oprah - probably don't have to tell you who she is

Howard Schultz (owner of Starbucks) grew up in a housing project in Brooklyn

Ursela Burns, grew up in projects in Manhattan, is CEO of Xerox

Guy Laliberte - was a street busker, started cirque de solei, worth 3 Billion

Leonardo Del Vecchio - grew up in orphanage, was never adopted, started sunglasses hut and Lens Crafters, worth 10 Billion

Kirk Kergorian - dirt poor, now worth $16 Billion, owns MGM Grand and Flamingo.

Ingvar Kamprad - grew up on poor farm, started Ikea, worth 6 Billion.

Richard Desmond (publisher) grew up in a garage, now a billionaire.

here's a good one!

JK Rowling - WAS ON WELFARE WHEN SHE WROTE HARRY POTTER (now Billionaire)

Sam Walton - was poor, but now his kids are billionaires, does that make them bad people?

poor people become rich every day, and rich people become poor every day. Families who are able to accrue an incredible ammount of wealth and hand portions of it down from generation to generation should be admired. The people could have wasted their money on gold rims and gold teeth, but instead said "I'm going to make sure my kids and my kids kids are rich, regardless of how dumb they are"!

[Sly]

Originally Posted by PR_Phil

wrong, there is more new money around than ever. The conspiracy theorists around here like to think there is only old money and old money runs the world, but there is a hell of a lot of new money, more than every, it is easier to become a billionaire than ever, (not saying I'm on the verge of doing it or anything).

Warren Buffet - came from some money, but is no trust fund baby, started working at 8 years old!

Gates - parents had money, but not rich

Zuckerberg - parents had money, not rich

Steve Jobs - was adopted by a mechanic

Sheldon Alderson (owns the venetian hotel, he is worth 20 billion) - born dirt poor

Jay Z, Puff Daddy / PDiddy???, 50 cent, Eminem, kid Rock - Each worth a couple hundred million plus, none started out rich.

Jean Paul DeJoria (owns Paul Mitchell hair products) was homeless at 30 years old, after quitting the navy, borrowed $700 (yes seven hundred) and turned it into 4 Billion

Oprah - probably don't have to tell you who she is

Howard Schultz (owner of Starbucks) grew up in a housing project in Brooklyn

Ursela Burns, grew up in projects in Manhattan, is CEO of Xerox

Guy Laliberte - was a street busker, started cirque de solei, worth 3 Billion

Leonardo Del Vecchio - grew up in orphanage, was never adopted, started sunglasses hut and Lens Crafters, worth 10 Billion

Kirk Kergorian - dirt poor, now worth $16 Billion, owns MGM Grand and Flamingo.

Ingvar Kamprad - grew up on poor farm, started Ikea, worth 6 Billion.

Richard Desmond (publisher) grew up in a garage, now a billionaire.

here's a good one!

JK Rowling - WAS ON WELFARE WHEN SHE WROTE HARRY POTTER (now Billionaire)

Sam Walton - was poor, but now his kids are billionaires, does that make them bad people?

poor people become rich every day, and rich people become poor every day. Families who are able to accrue an incredible ammount of wealth and hand portions of it down from generation to generation should be admired. The people could have wasted their money on gold rims and gold teeth, but instead said "I'm going to make sure my kids and my kids kids are rich, regardless of how dumb they are"!

Stop being silly, they were all lucky.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by Sly

Stop being silly, they were all lucky.

right place right time, possibly. one mistake, one wrong direction taken and any one of those people could of failed and became no one.

there are millions of people who work hard and invest money into all sorts of things in an attempt to become something, so why do the majority not end up becoming anything?

[Mutt]

Capitalism isn't perfect but it sure beats the alternatives. Anybody who doesn't see a problem with those wealth distribution stats though is an ahole.

Flat tax is one answer, the only way the rich will ever pay their fair share is through a flat tax - the more complicated the tax code is the easier it is for the rich to avoid/minimize paying their fair share. BUT merely making sure the rich pay their share doesn't solve the problem that graph shows. Globalization and technological change I am sure are the biggest factors in the worsening gap between rich and poor.

Everybody in any decent developed society should have a roof over their head, food and healthcare. Work backwards from there.

Some people would be happy to live in a country like Latin American countries are where the masses are dirt poor and the rich are few and filthy rich.

I don't think things are as bad as that graph shows, sure seems like there's a whole lot more people than just the rich living pretty comfortable lives. In the group who are under the poverty line I think are a lot of mentally ill and sick people as well as people caught in situations where poverty is thrust upon them by bad circumstances like divorce and a bad job market.

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

my "propaganda" is my ex GF that is eastern german and grew up in the DDR

but i didnt expect any other answer from you anyways

PS: do you deny that people got put in jail (and sometimes executed up to the 1970ties) for political reasons?

or that hundreds of people were shot for trying to leave?

So you don't have any experience to base your views on.

Do you deny the the US has more prisoners than any other country in the world and this prisoners are the result of a bogus "war on drugs" which imprisons people for being black and poor?

Do you deny that the US has killed thousands more in the numerous wars it has fought than were ever killed crossing borders from the East?

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by PR_Phil

wrong, there is more new money around than ever. The conspiracy theorists around here like to think there is only old money and old money runs the world, but there is a hell of a lot of new money, more than every, it is easier to become a billionaire than ever, (not saying I'm on the verge of doing it or anything).

Warren Buffet - came from some money, but is no trust fund baby, started working at 8 years old!

Gates - parents had money, but not rich

Zuckerberg - parents had money, not rich

Steve Jobs - was adopted by a mechanic

Sheldon Alderson (owns the venetian hotel, he is worth 20 billion) - born dirt poor

Jay Z, Puff Daddy / PDiddy???, 50 cent, Eminem, kid Rock - Each worth a couple hundred million plus, none started out rich.

Jean Paul DeJoria (owns Paul Mitchell hair products) was homeless at 30 years old, after quitting the navy, borrowed $700 (yes seven hundred) and turned it into 4 Billion

Oprah - probably don't have to tell you who she is

Howard Schultz (owner of Starbucks) grew up in a housing project in Brooklyn

Ursela Burns, grew up in projects in Manhattan, is CEO of Xerox

Guy Laliberte - was a street busker, started cirque de solei, worth 3 Billion

Leonardo Del Vecchio - grew up in orphanage, was never adopted, started sunglasses hut and Lens Crafters, worth 10 Billion

Kirk Kergorian - dirt poor, now worth $16 Billion, owns MGM Grand and Flamingo.

Ingvar Kamprad - grew up on poor farm, started Ikea, worth 6 Billion.

Richard Desmond (publisher) grew up in a garage, now a billionaire.

here's a good one!

JK Rowling - WAS ON WELFARE WHEN SHE WROTE HARRY POTTER (now Billionaire)

Sam Walton - was poor, but now his kids are billionaires, does that make them bad people?

poor people become rich every day, and rich people become poor every day. Families who are able to accrue an incredible ammount of wealth and hand portions of it down from generation to generation should be admired. The people could have wasted their money on gold rims and gold teeth, but instead said "I'm going to make sure my kids and my kids kids are rich, regardless of how dumb they are"!

Good job you are not a student writing a paper on social mobility as you would get an F.

Individual examples do not make a statistical analysis. Even though your example of poor people (who go to Harvard ) making it rich is laughable.

here is an example of proper research...

One interesting study examined the probability that a son will remain in his father's income quintile, where a quintile represents one-fifth of the population ranked from lowest to highest income. In that study of six countries (Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, the United Kingdom, and the United States), the data demonstrate that 42 percent of the American sons of fathers born in the poorest quintile landed in the poorest quintile themselves. This rate of the persistence of poverty was far higher than the 30 percent found in the United Kingdom and well above the 25 percent to 28 percent range found in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway.

And their conclusion....

Overall, these statistics are very depressing for those who subscribe to the notion that America is a meritocracy and a "land of opportunity." We see that there is far less social mobility in the United States than in other countries and other studies have shown clearly that this mobility is declining.

So the myth is for propaganda ....don't worry your kids live in poverty they could be Bill Gates

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

So you don't have any experience to base your views on.

Do you deny the the US has more prisoners than any other country in the world and this prisoners are the result of a bogus "war on drugs" which imprisons people for being black and poor?

Do you deny that the US has killed thousands more in the numerous wars it has fought than were ever killed crossing borders from the East?

what does that have to do with it? also, what is your first hand experience?

[helterskelter808]

Communism doesn't work because of selfishness and greed by people who don't want to play the game; capitalism doesn't work because it's rigged so most people can't even play the game, let alone stand a chance of winning.

The idea that anyone can 'make it' in America, or under capitalism, is as bogus as saying anyone can win the Lottery, something else that exists primarily by and for screwing the poorest people. Sure, it's possible, but there's an almost zero chance of it actually happening.

[kane]

Wealth inequality really only becomes a major problem when the lower end of the spectrum bottoms out. If you look at most of the countries in the world that are third world shitholes they almost all have a huge division of wealth where they have a tiny number of people that are very wealthy and a huge number of people that are very poor. They also have a very small middle class. These countries also have a broken education system so they have huge segments of the population that are way under-educated. There is also little or no upward mobility

The US might slowly be trending that way, with the middle class shrinking and out public education system seeming to get worse and worse, but we are a long way from that because this country still has a ton of upward mobility. Becoming a billionaire or even millionaire, requires more than just getting an education and getting a good job and it is something most people simply are not capable of doing. However, most people, if they are driven, apply themselves and focus can get a good education and can get a good job that allows them to live comfortable life.

So long as we have that middle class and the ability for people to create a quality life for themselves the country will be fine.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by georgeyw

Must be tough, the burden on one who knows everything. Or is that thinks they know everything?

All of your views are always condescending - put people down to elevate your own ego....

Need work? It's super easy to find. I was renovating 2 commercial spaces not too long ago for an offline business and guess what? Mexicans standing near Home Depot wanted 15+ an hour and usually found work every day and those that worked hard usually found permanent jobs. Cash.. tax free money. These are uneducated people who can't even speak the language. You think they'd be better off standing around bitching and blaming rich people and the government??? Of course not.

if you call me expecting people to get off their fucking asses and start looking to themselves "condescension" then I can guess you're one of the not too successful looking for excuses and somewhere to lay blame.

[kane]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Need work? It's super easy to find. I was renovating 2 commercial spaces not too long ago for an offline business and guess what? Mexicans standing near Home Depot wanted 15+ an hour and usually found work every day and those that worked hard usually found permanent jobs. Cash.. tax free money. These are uneducated people who can't even speak the language. You think they'd be better off standing around bitching and blaming rich people and the government??? Of course not.

if you call me expecting people to get off their fucking asses and start looking to themselves "condescension" then I can guess you're one of the not too successful looking for excuses and somewhere to lay blame.

1. Do you sit down there and monitor them on a daily basis month in and month out? If not how do you know that they find work every day?

2. I don't think you can fairly compare someone who is likely illegally in the country and willing to work for cash under the table with no benefits to someone who might have had a good job, lost it and is trying to get another good job that pays well and has benefits.

3. Sure, there are many people out there who could just get off their asses and get out there and they could get a job and they do bitch about the rich fucking them over, but really, what percentage of the population do you think these people make up?

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by helterskelter808

Communism doesn't work because of selfishness and greed by people who don't want to play the game; capitalism doesn't work because it's rigged so most people can't even play the game, let alone stand a chance of winning.

The idea that anyone can 'make it' in America, or under capitalism, is as bogus as saying anyone can win the Lottery, something else that exists primarily by and for screwing the poorest people. Sure, it's possible, but there's an almost zero chance of it actually happening.

People change, they are not fixed. If they live in societies where greed and selfishness is promoted they become selfish. In caring societies where values of kindness and equality are promoted people behave well.

Communism was destroyed because if was being built in very poor countries , with poor industrial development, no history of democracy, built on the ruins of war and surrounded by power capitalist countries set on its destruction.

I think the next revolution will be in the US and there the chances of building a successfull socialist country are good, it has a large and advanced economy and a history of democracy and openness.

[Jel]

Originally Posted by crockett

I think many of you that seem to think that just because someone is poor means they are lazy welfare queens really need a reality check. There are many hard working poor people but most of them have no clue how to get out of that position.

Let's not forget that also, for many they are sitting 200 yards before the start line. It's *fucking* hard to even get to the start line from that position, and from then on in make headway. I'm currently in a world of shit after doing pretty well for a number of years, and I can tell you from experience that once you start getting bogged down and sucked under, things are extraordinarily hard. Not impossible, as I'm making headway and expect to be out of this shit in 6 - 12 months, so I do agree that hard work + mental attitude is VERY significant, but yeah, like others have said, don't be so quick to 'judge' or believe that it's a simple case of 'work hard and save up'. That just isn't how it happens.

I've had what you might call a 'colourful' life, which includes being homeless at about 16/17 years of age, a spell in prison, and blah blah etc etc, and while I'm definitely not saying 'woe is/was me', I needed the generosity of others (not in a monetary sense) to be able to pull myself out of that treacle-filled swimming pool, and further myself. Been there and done that, and that's why I'll never, ever, pull the ladder up and judge another person based on where they currently are.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Jel

Let's not forget that also, for many they are sitting 200 yards before the start line. It's *fucking* hard to even get to the start line from that position, and from then on in make headway. I'm currently in a world of shit after doing pretty well for a number of years, and I can tell you from experience that once you start getting bogged down and sucked under, things are extraordinarily hard. Not impossible, as I'm making headway and expect to be out of this shit in 6 - 12 months, so I do agree that hard work + mental attitude is VERY significant, but yeah, like others have said, don't be so quick to 'judge' or believe that it's a simple case of 'work hard and save up'. That just isn't how it happens.

I've had what you might call a 'colourful' life, which includes being homeless at about 16/17 years of age, a spell in prison, and blah blah etc etc, and while I'm definitely not saying 'woe is/was me', I needed the generosity of others (not in a monetary sense) to be able to pull myself out of that treacle-filled swimming pool, and further myself. Been there and done that, and that's why I'll never, ever, pull the ladder up and judge another person based on where they currently are.

If you suddenly find yourself in a situation where you have a lot less money than you had before you find it is expensive to be poor. You miss a payment on your credit card and they charge you a fee and increase your interest rate so once you find yourself behind it becomes that much more difficult to get yourself out of that hole.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Cherry7

So you don't have any experience to base your views on.

Do you deny the the US has more prisoners than any other country in the world and this prisoners are the result of a bogus "war on drugs" which imprisons people for being black and poor?

Do you deny that the US has killed thousands more in the numerous wars it has fought than were ever killed crossing borders from the East?

lol

you are the same as those republican tea party retards that totally turn the conversation around when it comes to something they can't deny.

what you wrote has nothing to do with what i was asking you.

i was asking you about a former system that locked people away or even executed them when you didn't share their political opinion.

but i assume thats ok for you when you still keep defending that nowadays

and when it comes to my personal experience - besides my GF and her family and the 40 years of history that came with that - i remember very well that i couldnt visit parts of my family that lived near the polish/czech border in the DDR but we kept sending them parcels with coffee, chocolate, clothes and other stuff they couldnt buy back then

but keep living in your dream world, comrade

[Gozarian]

As one who has lived in a former eastern bloc country for many years, to put it nicely Cherry7, you are full of shit. Yes people had jobs but the vast majority were not able to choose their work. If you failed to show for your assigned job the police would come to your home and physically remove you and take you to work. Your choices of where to purchase what little food that was available were limited to the party approved store in your area; usually only one. Milk, bread, butter, cooking oil, sugar, pork, beef, chicken and potatoes were routinely rationed. Electricity and heat were rationed or simply cut off for hours on end. We had only one television station that played party BS and cartoons. Nobody trusted anyboy because all your neighbors were informants to the secret police and your phone was tapped. Thousands of people just went missing; most likely murdered bu the state. Women were forced to have 2 children unless they had a C-section therefore almost all the women paid bribes to the doctor to receive a C-section. If you lived in the village and were lucky enough to have your own animals, when that animal gave birth you would be imprisioned if you fed yourself rather that sell the animal to the state for coins. Cars were only for high ranking party officials. People joined the party in the hope that the largesse of the potilicos would fall to them, although it never did. Oh we long for those days.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by kane

1. Do you sit down there and monitor them on a daily basis month in and month out? If not how do you know that they find work every day?

2. I don't think you can fairly compare someone who is likely illegally in the country and willing to work for cash under the table with no benefits to someone who might have had a good job, lost it and is trying to get another good job that pays well and has benefits.

3. Sure, there are many people out there who could just get off their asses and get out there and they could get a job and they do bitch about the rich fucking them over, but really, what percentage of the population do you think these people make up?

What difference does their legal status or benefits with respect to being able to step out the front door with shitty clothes, unshowered, not speaking the language and then being able to make 500+ a week cash have to do with anything?

My point is simply that one single question never gets answered...

"At what point does any responsibility at all get put on the individual". All i hear are sad stories about how some other external thing is to blame and that thing needs to be attacked. Just like you said "trying to get another good job that pays well, with benefits" - Wow. How about starting at "get a job, save money" and then move to "look for better job WHILE working"?

You're a smart guy. How about this. How about you go to Home Depot and conduct an informal survey - just as I ask every time I hire laborers... "do you find work every day" "how many of you guys here find work every day" "how often are you offered permanent jobs" etc etc etc.
--- just keep your car doors locked as they'll try to rush your car and pile in. (but then again, I guess really wanting it pays off)


I have a background in construction, its not like i'm just making this up. I think the results will be wildly disappointing for anyone who thinks rich people should be punished to lift poor people up. In fact, those fuckers demand more and more money now. Years back, they used to be 8.00 an hour for skilled workers, now they all want 15-20/hr where I am and the good ones find steady work very quickly.

I feel like I woke up one day and suddenly everyone feels they are entitled to everything. Why do people have it in their heads that they aren't supposed to struggle? That employment is not guaranteed? That things aren't just going to be given to them. How many of the people bitching about "rich people" are actively planning for their future, saving money, getting educated and improving their earning ability? How many are just sitting around bitching while they spend their money on retarded crap and then complaining about rich people because they are broke?

20+ years now of telling every kid they are special and passing out participation trophies created a generation of young adults who can't understand why the world isn't treating them like they're special. The problems in the US are 95% cultural, not economic. Why are we never talking about lazy, useless, self entitled people?... and just trying to paint a picture of 10,000,000 Ward Cleaver types who are doing the best that circumstances will allow but some big evil corporation is oppressing them?

I read a statistic that Houston has more check cashing places than Subway restaurants. Why aren't we talking about the need to address retarded people with zero responsibility, who accept zero personal accountability and who make nothing but hugely irresponsible and stupid decisions, all day, every day at the direct cost of everyone else?

Why aren't we talking about people making minimum wage having 1-2-3 kids? Why is the fucking President telling everyone that's ok? Huh? Why are you having kids when you can't afford to have kids? Why is he addressing the nation telling people it takes "courage" to stick around and raise a child? Last I checked "raise your child and be a parent" fell squarely under the "no shit" category. I guess thats clearly changed. Why was he telling the nation that everyone should be able to afford a great pre-school for their multiple kids even though they are making minimum wage? I never went to fucking pre-school. I mean, we're supposed to go to pre-school? Huh? That should be a right that I as a tax payer need to pay for?

The absolute last problem this country has is "rich people". Los Angeles has billboards that say "do the impossible, graduate high school". We've lowered standards so far now for what we expect of people as a society that people are confused that anything is expected of them at all. We are creating a nation of underachievers and at the same time, telling them its the achievers who are responsible for all their problems. That's pure insanity.

The point that hurts every one to think about. NO ONE that is driven, that works extremely hard, that is bright and good at what they do are unemployed for any real amount of time. It's largely "everyone else" that is. I don't know ANY great people that are unemployed. Maybe people need to examine that?

So again, my question is always "where does any of this fall on the individual" - that's the one thing that never gets addressed.

[Cherry7]

Originally Posted by Gozarian

As one who has lived in a former eastern bloc country for many years, to put it nicely Cherry7, you are full of shit. Yes people had jobs but the vast majority were not able to choose their work. If you failed to show for your assigned job the police would come to your home and physically remove you and take you to work. Your choices of where to purchase what little food that was available were limited to the party approved store in your area; usually only one. Milk, bread, butter, cooking oil, sugar, pork, beef, chicken and potatoes were routinely rationed. Electricity and heat were rationed or simply cut off for hours on end. We had only one television station that played party BS and cartoons. Nobody trusted anyboy because all your neighbors were informants to the secret police and your phone was tapped. Thousands of people just went missing; most likely murdered bu the state. Women were forced to have 2 children unless they had a C-section therefore almost all the women paid bribes to the doctor to receive a C-section. If you lived in the village and were lucky enough to have your own animals, when that animal gave birth you would be imprisioned if you fed yourself rather that sell the animal to the state for coins. Cars were only for high ranking party officials. People joined the party in the hope that the largesse of the potilicos would fall to them, although it never did. Oh we long for those days.

Sound pretty terrible and I do not defend what happened in Romania, but I lived in Poland and Britain and I saw that was a great deal to be said for the regime in Poland. It had work and housing for everyone, free education and health care for all. It also had an open society in which books films and plays were shown from all over the World. All Poles had seen life in America on film. How many Americans have watched Russian or Polish films?

the system had a lot of faults and I got into trouble while I lived there for protesting about it, I was arrestes and deported. But I have been arrested in Britain too, I have seen how poor people are fucked over here and how the system is design to exploit people.

Free travel is a great thing, but just as the Communist regimes were wrong to stop people traveling, remember the the majority of people can't travel because they are prevented to enter the USA or Europe, in fact thousands die trying.

I think America has very many positive democratic achievements, they should be part of any future good society, but that society would also have a lot of what the Communist countries tried to do..
Housing for all, jobs for all, cheap heating and basic food, clean water, free health care.