I have proof that you went to jail for selling crack.
No, i'm not gonna show it.
Just use Google.

See how that works? Funny, isn't it.

So what REALLY is the reason you refuse to show me proof?

you think david irving is a legitmate scholar? hahahah, derp.

just a bit i found on irving-

Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books.

that's your legitimate scholar.... hahahahahahahahahhhh

little more:


The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist, who "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism",[5] and that he had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence"

again,

there is not 1 single legitimate scholar on this planet that does not validate the final solution.

period.

I nominated this thread for 'Retarded Theard of the Month'. I hope it wins. It should..

oh wow you are so clever.. actually YES HE IS he has written massive books that are well established with credibility about WW2. Then of course he got slammed for his views. It happens in all academic fields if you are in the minority you get slammed. Physics, psychology, everthing. It doesn't mean you are wrong. Remember the planet was considered flat until relatively recently. Anyway i digress. there are others as well i just dont know their names off hand and anyway its kind of irrelevant.... Bottom line is do your own research look into shit and stop reading everything the establishment wants you to read.

technically i am a scholar i have a published paper (in psychology).

And i don't validate your final solution. So there. Wrong. Very wrong.

oh but of course im not legitimate right?? and nor is anyone who disagrees with you....

i've done my own research. i'm not the one here trying to back up my view by pointing to anti-semitic nazi sympathers as truthful historians, that would be you.

you can disagree all you want, but you haven't disagreed with me at all. you might want to reread my posts here, i haven't tried to change your mind. i did supply a fact, which is again, not 1 legitimate scholar believes the holocaust did not happen.

There are plenty of still living Holocaust survivors who tell their stories. And their personal stories and recollections corroborate most of what we think about the Holocaust and none of what you say. I don't doubt that diseases couldn't have ravaged the camps, but so did starvation, random executions, gas showers, so on and so forth.

It's like Lance Armstrong and steroids, where there's smoke there is fire.

I guess the living survivors of Auschwitz, Dachau, Warsaw Ghetto, etc. all conspired to tell a different story? There are massive organizations out there that still hunt Nazi war criminals to this day, but it was only a few rogue guys? I think in reality you might be taking some evidence and giving it your own meaning which is far from the truth...

What say you? Are all those living survivors lying or mis-stating the truth?

For the record my gf went to the LA holocaust museum yesterday. There was a random speaker / Holocaust survivor. He talked in detail of the gas chamber. He came from a fairly large family and only him and his mother survived. He was a 9 year old when he entered the camp and only survived by being a run-errand boy.

If you doubt it, go to a Holocaust museum. There are plenty, buildings full of evidence.

And yes, others got it really bad as well including the Russians. And when the Russians entered Germany, the German civilians got it bad as well for payback, including the who knows how many German soldiers who were captured in Russia that never returned. Moreover I am reading a book right now that said the Nazis came to power with only 44% of the vote, and then the Nazis outlawed all other political parties. Many of the soldiers forced to serve / fight, really didn't have a choice, and never even really supported "The Party." Most of the airmen in the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) weren't even supporters of Hitler, and were pretty open about not liking him, but still felt they had to protect their homeland.

My religion doesn't and shouldn't have any bearing on this discussion.

Why would you care?

I'm looking for where I read about the bullets being discussed, haven't found it yet.

tomorrow i will be less tired and will show you some links my friend. and your religion doesnt matter per se, but if you are jewish then i understand your bias... nothing wrong with jews at all, i mean at all, all the jews i know personally are fucking lovely people, but you gotta admit jews kinda have a vested interest in this... i mean without the holocaust bs the israeli state would probably not exist...

death marches certainly were not logical and didn't kill everyone marching either.

In the final months of the Third Reich, as the Allied armies approached Germany, the regime began to evacuate the 715,000 prisoners held in concentration camps. Most of the inmates were being used as forced labour for the German war economy, although under conditions deliberately engineered to weaken and eventually kill them: the Nazis even had a specific term for this, Vernichtung durch Arbeit, "annihilation through work".

Although the prisoners were already very weak or ill after enduring the routine violence, overwork and starvation of concentration camp or prison camp life, they were marched for dozens of miles in the snow to railway stations, then transported for days at a time without food, water or shelter in freight carriages originally designed for cattle. On arrival at their destination, they were then forced to march again to the new camp. Prisoners who were unable to keep up due to fatigue or illness were usually executed by gunshot.


http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...pix/march2.jpg

evidence is in documents not people's 60 yr old bias memories... Basic Psychology will point out that witnesses generally have very poor memories of events after time passes, people are very suggestable and you can actually insert memories into them by merely using suggestive words and such. However ill post tomorrow when im less tired a link of jews who stated they played soccer and had dances and performed plays in these camps... they dont want you to hear that though do they...

no need, many of us saw the movie a long time ago

Jaeger, I will look forward to continuing this with you tomorrow then.

Tisme, hang on got this for you in the meantime, its very long but its very good, even my bimbo ex gf got through it and liked it...

if you have time you should watch...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE

i cannot find the other shorter video i wanted to post but ill have more time to look tomorrow..

Sure, with that type of logic you can come up with an explanation for almost anything. Maybe we should discard all eye witness accounts of everything, including within the legal system? Because eye witness accounts are too faulty, and people are suggestable. Memories can easily be inserted into people....

I guess all the riders that saw Lance Armstrong do steroids were wrong, even though he openly admitted to it... It was figments of their imaginations and the suggestions of him doing steroids altered their memories.

I choose to accept the face value of things, and understand there will be no convincing you. Clearly everyone else got it wrong, and you got it right.

dude psychology teaches that the legal system is flawed with regard to eye witness accounts, its a long story but its what i learnt at university, people are very suggestable after a certain amount of time after an event. the legal system does not take this into account because the legal system is based on brittish law 1000 years old and before that roman law, basically it does not adapt quickly...

it's not even valid if/then logic, if someone has had a memory suggested to them, then the holocaust survivors had the memory suggested to them.

i mean rly?? srsly? people think the jews that survived the final solution had that memory supplanted?


wow.

with this reply it all makes sense now, you have had a top class education.

i appreciate your wanting to question everything, and curiousity and questioning things are for the most part a good thing, as is independent thinking.

but with that being said...

the holocaust was real and it was ugly, it was a tragedy, and one day you will come to realize it, if you truly are intelligent. :2 cents:

700,000 survivors, that must have been a helluva operation, planting fake memories in all those sick people.

i didnt say fake memories

suggestable i said

so subtle influence...

with a little self interested bias...

and not all accounts were all that bad, if i could find that damn video you would see jews saying they had fun playing soccer and dancing...

and you harken back to my prior point, why so many survivors?? why arent they dead? you cannot tell me that such an efficient government system could not have killed them all...

was the memory supplant accomplished via youtube like this maybe? they could show it on a screen in front of a bunch of them to process the memory plant faster.

as biggy pointed out, you have your view and you are sticking to it. your call but since you asked this question, it reveals to me that you are not understanding why they didn't kill them all. do some more research on the final solution, it will answer that question.

hint, it's why i posted that information about death marches.

in this i totally agree, we are all entitled to our own opinions, that is very important to me. disagree with me, that is fine, to be honest i am glad that you have a strong opinion.

You are a fucking moron.

coming from someone too stupid to actually reply to anything intelligently (unlike almost everyone else in this thread who at least are intelligent enough), ill take that as a compliment...

The Nuremberg trials of Nazis that took place in 1945. Not many years later with confused or otherwise altered memories.

Even the Germans who testified said it happened as we know it did today. They didn't deny the Holocaust happened, they claimed to be following Government orders.


__________________________________________________ ________________________

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007271


"Eyewitness testimony from both perpetrators and survivors laid the foundation for much of what we know about the Holocaust, including details of the Auschwitz death machinery, atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen and other SS and police units, the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, and the original statistical estimate of six million murdered Jews. Many people directly involved in the killing program died before the end of the war, but the Allies interrogated many of those who were still alive in preparation for the trial. None of the perpetrators denied the Holocaust. Most just tried to deflect their responsibility for the killings.

Three key perpetrators gave evidence directly related to the Holocaust: Hermann Göring, the highest official of the Nazi state tried at Nuremberg, testified openly and frankly about the persecution of German Jews from the rise of the Nazi party to power in 1933 until the outbreak of war in 1939; Otto Ohlendorf testified directly about his unit, Einsatzgruppe D, killing 90,000 Jews in the southern Ukraine in 1941; and the commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war. All three claimed that they carried out the legitimate orders of the state.

While the testimony of perpetrators is often chilling in its frankness about the killing program, testimony from survivors, then and today, is often the best antidote to Holocaust denial. Holocaust survivors directly experienced Nazi genocidal policies. Their testimony is personal, immediate, and, for this reason, compelling."

Eyewitness testimonies don't have any merit cause they are looking for sympathy. Eyewitnesses came out saying there were lampshades, soapbars, and matresses made from jewish people too.

No matter what people say the physical evidence pointing to gas chambers just isnt there.

The six million number was used time and time again way before WWII

Here is a documentary made by a jewish guy in the 90's about Auchwitz got in alot of trouble because of it.

Why is it illegal to research in some countries. Kinda strange.

just know that my opinion is based on facts from the most documented event in human history.


that's a fact, not my opinion. :)

those items were documented and are historical fact.

ok show me a nazi document that mentions anything of it then, but you cannot can you? such a document does not exist. If it is so factual and documented why are there no German documents from the period about it?

And these are nazis... crazy about their paperwork... still nothing that proves a mass killing...

Mayabong, I'm certain that you could even find a video of someone saying that the moon is made of cheese. Doesn't make it so.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007271

From the Nuremberg trials:

"...the commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war."

lol :1orglaugh

dude those items have been proven to be made up by even mainstream historians.. just look at them, quite ridiculous really... why the fuck would you make those items... just saying clearly bs

Jaeger, do you read German?

Any such Document would almost certainly be in German.

I don't, so a link is not possible, I'd have no clue what I was linking to.

look, as i mentioned earlier, it's preposterous to me to even see a debate re: the validity of the final solution, let alone participate in *debating* it.

i think i made my point though.

actually i do read german, not very well but well enough to get an idea of what is written, my father is fluent, so i picked up a little. im not german though.

also pls watch that youtube video i posted, i know its long but its interesting..

There is no physical evidence. There aren't even blue stains on the walls in "gas chambers". Zyclon B leaves blue stains as can be seen to this day in the delousing chambers. "Gas Chambers" not a trace. Not to mention these gas chambers windows ect. Some "gas chambers" were right outside the fences in full view of everyone. When you start to look at it, its kinda laughable. i have no emotional attachment to it like most of you guys do though. I'm tired of hearing about it and so is most of the world. :p

Jaeger, I will watch the video, got it opened for later. There were 3,000 tons of Nazi records submitted as evidence at the Nuremberg Trials, I'd guess at least some if not all is online as a public record.

Being as it's in German I'd have no clue what was what.

Mayabong, so the Nazi Commandant of the camp made up the story of his killing all those people at his own trial?

Why?

SING ALONG!

"The I Was Not A Nazi Polka"

The Chad Mitchell Trio

"Wenn Sie durch Die Schöne Deutschland gehen
Einen gesang werder Sie Hören
Es gibt eine kleine Melodie in Deutschland
Fur fünfzehn oder Zwanzig Jahren

[Spoken]
As you travel through Die Schöne Deutschland
(Wenn Sie durch Die Schöne Deutschland gehen)
A melody will greet your ears
(Einen gesang werder Sie Hören)
It's a melody that's been around in Deutschland
(Es gibt eine kleine Melodie in Deutschland)
For fifteen to twenty years
(Fur fünfzehn oder Zwanzig Jahren)

Each and every German dances to the strain
Of the I was not a Nazi Polka
All without exception join in the refrain
Of the I was not a Nazi Polka

Goering was a crazy we wanted to deport
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka
We all thought that Dachau was just a nice resort
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka

The German is so cultured, he does not like to fight
The peaceful life is what he most enjoys
For years the German people were utterly convinced
I.G. Farben manufactured children's toys

I never shot a Luger or goosed a single step
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka

- Was you not an SS guard?
- I was not an SS guard.
I was not a Nazi Polka
- Did you not love Ilsa Koch?
- I did not love Ilsa Koch.
I was not a Nazi Polka
- Did you not despise the Jews?
- I did not, some of my best friends..
I was not a Nazi Polka
- Did you not think Adolf great?
- I did not, Adolf who?
- Adolf who?
- Ja, Adolf who?
- Fritz, you're putting me on.
- Was bedeutet dieses 'putting me on'?
- Are you kidding me or something?
- Nein, I'm not kidding you. Adolf who?
- Adolf Hitler!
- Should I know him? Is he a folksinger?
- You don't remember?
- Nein, I don't remember him. Who was he?
- Well..

A little man, very mean, very loud and brash
- Mmm-mmm...
Not too tall, he never smiled, wore a black mustache
- Nein, I never heard..
He had a girl, Eva Braun, hair as red as flame
- Ah, ja, ja.
He papered walls for many years till his moment came
- Of course!

He's the one who clapped his hands, went into a dance
When the news came to him that we had conquered France
- That's him
He once said, when our flag proudly was unfurled,
"Today, Germany, tomorrow, the world! (Yeah!) Tomorrow, the world! (Yeah!) Tomorrow the world! (Yeah!) Tomorrow the world! (Yeah! Yeah!)"
- I never heard of him
- Neither did I

To our Israeli allies let us raise a toast
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka
Sure there were some Nazis, two or three at most
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka

We tried to throw off Hitler right from the very start
That's what every history book should tell
We hated Heinrich Himmler, Martin Bormann too
We believe as Sherman did that war is hell.. hell.. hell.. hell..
Heil!.. Heil!.. Heil!.. Sieg heil!.. Sieg heil!.. Sieg heil!!

Germans are as gentle as flowers in the spring
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka
Germans are a people who love to dance and sing
Sing the I was not a Nazi Polka

[Spoken]
Wait a minute! Wait a minute! You there, you are not singing.
You do not like to sing? Tell me, you still have a family in Germany, nicht wahr? Sing!

Sing the I Was Not a Nazi Polka
Sieg heil!"

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...t/IMG_0173.jpg

:winkwink:

exactly.........where are all the german holocaust deniers now?

Affidavit signed by Rudolf Hoess attesting to the gassing of Jews while he was the commandant of the Auschwitz killing center.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_da...1&MediaId=5628

also, a map titled "Jewish Executions Carried Out by Einsatzgruppen A"

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_da...1&MediaId=5617

A map with pictures of coffins and numbers next to them.

Don't need to read German to figure out this official Nazi document.

No it wasn't, The Egyptians well over 2,000 years ago not only knew the world was round, they had even measured it using shadows and got it quite accurate. But even before that going back to Persian or Babylonian astrologers 3,000 years ago. They knew the world was round.

In fact we have no written evidence of any ancient civilizations ever thinking the world was flat.

the first man to sail around the world and prove the world was round was Ferdinand Magellan, but even in his time, no one believed the world was flat. He just proved what everyone already knew

For some reason some people still believe that in Columbus time, people thought the world was flat, which is probably where you get your opinion from. But everybody knew that the world was a sphere by the time Columbus was born

Do US schools still teach the myth that Columbus proved the world was round or another period of time you are referring to?

Or did you pick that 'fact' up from watching cartoons? :1orglaugh

"Do US schools still teach the myth that Columbus proved the world was round or another period of time you are referring to? "


Not sure what they teach now, way back when I went to school the world was flat. :)

why am i still awake lol,

first link imo irrelavent bc it is after the fact, it is well known that many nazis signed whatever they were told to after pressure or promises of a better life in the USA or whereever after the war.

Second link, interesting, Einsatzgruppen certainly did exist and certainly did execute people behind the front lines, but as i understand it, they executed partisans, communists, jews and lots of people... in other words the map just shows that they executed people. yeah ok, but that could be anyone..... it doesn't mention jews anywhere on that photo.

Good question. Blow your brains out so there is one less fucktard left to breed