xXXtesy10

This sort of thing happens all the time. Love the spin. Business as usual. Haters gonna hate.

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SomeCreep

Well shit

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FreewayRick

Yeah, it's an interesting point.

All the tube sites are clearly illegal from a German Perspective, violating youth protection laws.

And the fines can be several million ?.


Whether the tax department could simply hand the case over to the department responsible for compliance with the porn laws (youth protection department), I have absolutely no idea.

It would seem like an idea from their perspective, it would not even be a "witchhunt", the tube sites are breaking german laws, and have done so for years.

FreewayRick

well that's not exactly what I meant. I really don't care who loves or hates Mr. Thylmann.

Just putting into perspective that Germany has a lot of Tax Evaders and a lot of cases involving Tax Evasion.

Compare to other Countries, let's say Greece. You can openly evade Taxes in Greece, and the Authorities do nothing. So they came up with things like stopping the electricity to your home, or putting the name of tax evaders on the internet. Because they can't prosecute tax evaders, even though they know who is evading taxes!


In Germany, it's not like that...if you evade Taxes, there is a decent chance of prosecution. It does not mean the end of the world, nor is it the first time it ever happened.

Just to back it up with some facts:

http://www.morgenpost.de/wirtschaft/...rden-Euro.html

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/steuern...id_803095.html


2010 and 2011 there were 40.000 Tax Evasion Investigations in Germany

These were all relatively big cases, because the Tax Authorities managed to "save" 4.000.000.000 ?.

On average that's 100.000? per case.



There are about 80.000.000 people living in Germany.

That means that 1 out of 2000 Germans were investigated for tax Issues.

You have to deduct people who are too young to work, too old to work, and of course the people who simply don't make enough money to be worthwhile targets (of course that's the vast majority of the population).

Of course, not everybody who commits tax evasion, is actually going to be prosecuted for it (as it is with any crime).


If you deduct all these people, you get an idea of how widespread the problem (or the solution, depending on the point of view) is.

I wouldn't be surprised if other Countries had just as much Tax Evaders or even more. It could easily be that Germany just has one of the most capable and aggressive Tax Authorities in the world, thus making the problem more visible.


Bottom Line, there is no doubt that a Tax Evasion case on its own is no big deal in Germany.

xXXtesy10

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georgeyw

Oh come on, are we in primary school here? Mike stirs shit up for his website - wants to be the *mouth* ie he wants to be the guy who says what everyone else is too scared and I guess he finds himself going a little overboard sometimes.

in reality, it is all talk, Mike isn't going to do jack diddly squat, same goes for everyone else - they're just words albeit a little overboard...

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TheSwed

1. How many of them were CEO's of multi million dollar companies?

2. How many were arrested following an international arrest order issued by a German Court?

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VenusBlogger

Lots of people hardly post in GFY and threads die pretty soon or are inactive.

But look what happened to this thread... This kind of thread tells you that this place is still visited by a lot of people, but most became lurkers and hardly post anymore.

Strange attitude from some people, seriously.

Herrmann

Hi, new member from Germany here.

A lot has already been explained about tax evasion in Germany and yes, there are many loopholes in the system. The big but here is: Once they are after you, you´re fucked. There´s tax detectives, although the authorities are local, there´s no such thing as the IRS, but these guys can get as nasty.

In case of a raid all the material can be used to investigate for other offenses. This is called "finds by accident" (Zufallsfunde), and actually this brought many tax criminals jail time, but that´s a separate case then.

As a first time offender for tax evasion only, you are likely to get parole, given that you plead guilty, confess, and pay the taxes due plus interest plus a fine. That also depends on how much criminal energy you put behind the schemes.

On the arrest in Belgium, and this is from the german news sources talking to the DAs: Fabian was still of german citizenship but living in Belgium. So, due to EU standards, an arrest warrant was issued for him, and Belgian authorities were asked to fullfill it, and that´s what they did. It´s a very common practice. Also, one of Manwins biggest offices is in Hamburg, so the crimes may have been commited there as well, but that is just my speculation.

Here´s the biggest but: Due to privacy laws, even the DA can not say whether Fabian is charged personally for his own taxes and/or Manwins operations. Many reports say that they asked Manwin in Germany, and they decline to comment. At all.

Shap

Is it normal to hold someone in custody this long? They say he was taken into custody last week. That seems like a long time to me

Herrmann

I don´t know much about belgian laws, but when a foreign citizen is arrested in Europe, the requests for transferring him to another country are thoroughly checked. That involves letters by ground mail etc. Given that Fabian is not belgian and has a lot of money, cops always put up the "risk of running" thing, so they keep him locked. Also, Fabian may be in the process of filing against his arrest in Belgium Take Julian Assange as an example. He went through all british courts available ;)

SKUP

He was arrested last Monday. Not last week. His lawyers will probably thwart the process of extradition.

JFK

Herrmann, are you in the Adult Business ?

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FreewayRick

Somebody already picked up on the idea written about here.

http://www.bild.de/news/standards/fr...0810.bild.html

He is arguing that Youporn is a very bad influence on school children. And he wishes Mr. Thylmann would've been arrested for that, not for tax evasion.

Anybody, including minors, can readily access Youporn via mobile phones etc, because there is no age check.


I would make the point that a Judge, Prosecutor, would very likely care a lot more about the complete absence of an age check at his tube sites. In comparison with Content Theft, or other things alleged in this thread.


An extradition of Criminals from NON-EU Countries to EU can take 5 Years or longer, that's how complicated the process is.

Of course within EU it will be a lot faster, but a couple of days really is nothing strange.

Herrmann

As a side job, yes. And not looking for even more work ;)

JFK

was'nt offering

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Shap

All the new news reports I've seen have said it was last week not Monday.

FreewayRick

1. Well in a sample of 40.000 People, I would expect there were quite a few CEO's in that sample? They probably weren't 40.000 Drug Dealers, would be my rough guess.

And even if not, what does being a CEO have to do with evading Taxes? How does being a CEO make anybody more guilty or less guilty?



2. There was an international arrest warrant?

Where did you get that information, because I couldn't find it anywhere?


I'd think there was simply a bit of cooperation between Belgian and German Law Enforcement...after all the Raids were planned a long time in Advance.

But that's not different than say a French Car thief being apprehended In Germany...of course the German Police will send him right back to France. That's a huge difference compared to a European Arrest Warrant or even Interpol Red Notice though...

Herrmann

There´s some confusion on the dates: Confirmed by the DA is just that there were raids in the offices and his home Tuesday last week, that would have been Dec. 5. When exactly he was arrested was not stated publicly, but the first confirmation of the arrest came Monday this week, Dec. 10. The first source was in fact "Die Welt". The date of the searches was then confirmed by the DA to "Der Spiegel", where they also said he was arrested last week. Sorry, I´m not yet allowed to post links here.

So: First news report Dec. 10, searches Dec. 5, arrest in the same week. Most likely Dec. 5 as well, as they usually ring your door 6 or 7 am with the warrants to keep you from destroying evidence.

AshlAr

I live in Belgium and there is some writing on this in the newspaper.

Fabian lives in Belgium, for some years now. He first lived in Kraainem and now in Tervuren, which are both suburbs of Brussels.

Nowhere is stated he was arrested at Brussels Airport.

He was arrested on German demand Early this week and is now held in custody. He was given the option to fight his delivery to Germany, which can take up to six weeks. He chose not to do that and will be in a German jail within 2 weeks.

Belgium has nothing to do with this, except that Fabian is residing here.

His company is Luxembourg based.

AshlAr

I dept a bit deeper...

He was arrested December 4th. Indeed @ Brussels Airport. He will be delivered to Germand authorities within two weeks from now.

Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE

get pissed on in Prison

Herrmann

Interesting, sources?

AshlAr

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/996/Eco...opgepakt.dhtml

In Dutch.

De Morgen is a good newspaper in Belgium.

DWB

Shap, it is not unusual for arrests to be as long and drawn out as possible. It wears you down, and that is often their goal. A worn down Fabian (or anyone) is a lot more likely to play ball than a Fabian who is full of energy and working with full mental capacity.

Not saying that is the case here, but I know it is a tactic sometimes used when detaining people.

AshlAr

He has to be handed to German authorities. There are a lot of formalities with such procedures. They have to comply with Belgian, German and EU laws and cannot make any mistakes, so they take their time for these things.

Normally, it would take 6 weeks for delivery, but they asked Fabian if he was allright with a shorter procedure. He okay'd that and so the timing was cut in half.

Herrmann

This just in: Tabloid "Bild" quoting a DAs spokesperson that the charges include Fabian himself and "his company", not naming Manwin exactly.

DWB

The fact that all of these thieves have not pissed everyone off so bad is the exact reason they are able to get away with fucking everyone repeatedly and still have you want to be stroke buddies with them.

Shap

I agree with a violent crime arrest. But a tax arrest? Seems excessive and not something you ever hear high profiled people going through.

babymaker

So what will this mean for almost all the other big adult companies that are incorporated in Cyprus?? They all have empty offices there as well, most do anyway of the big ones. All the articles I read, this Cyprus thing seems to be one of the big problems, is it going to be a problem for the other companies now as well? Maybe someone didn't research Cyprus as thoroughly as they should have, it might not have been such a good choice. I have no idea personally, just reading all the articles, it made me wonder.

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chaze

Yeah, there is only two things you can't avoid in life. Tax and death.

SGS

For tax in the EU there is 100% cross border cooperation and right at the moment they are taking tax issues very seriously. Some EU tax authorities have a lot more power than the police and have done for many years.

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SGS

In the EU it's a lot easier to avoid death than tax.

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DWB

Sure. It depends on what they want you for and if they think you have information they need or not. "Tax evasion" could just be the only thing they could arrest him on currently which allows them to take his computers and check the books. Then down the rabbit hole you go. Every email, every bank statement, chats, all records of anything may be combed over in every detail, looking for more things to hang him with, or they may find nothing at all and he's totally legit as he has claimed.

I'm just speaking hypothetically here because I have no idea what is going on in his case, but lets assume for a moment that there is dirty money and real tax evasion going. Lets say 1/2 of the rumors are true. Or even better, lets just say they THINK those rumors are true and THINK there are people funding the whole operation with dirty money. They will try to wear him down to the point he tells them what they want to know and cuts a deal with them. And if he has something to tell them, he will tell them. He is a programmer and at best a white collar criminal, not a hardened criminal who is used to such things. This is a very common tactic used. Wear someone down until they give in and make a deal.

Like I said, I have NO idea what is really going on and I'm not saying this is the case. But I know for a fact they do this sort of thing. However, this could all just be procedure and red tape and no big deal at all.

What I do know though, is that none of us know what is really going on. This could be nothing at all and simply procedure, or it could be the tip of the iceberg and he is about to get the screws put to him, which in that case if he is the true owner of Manwin, the company is in trouble. If he is not, they will cash him out and replace him. Another thing to take into consideration, his computers were seized. Whatever data taken from them will probably be shared with other law enforcement (be it legal or not to do so) who may also be looking into him or that company. So even if he clears this one, there may be other issues down the road. No telling what may be dug up. Everyone makes mistakes.

FreewayRick

hm well these are just three cases that come to mind:


Wesley Snipes

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/161090.../#.UMhmqYM82ik

Stephen Baldwin (happened 5 days ago)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwo...paign=20121206

Dr.Klaus Zumwinkel, German CEO

http://www.wz-newsline.de/home/polit...aftet-1.221009


I'm not sure why it doesn't happen more often, probably because the line between tax evasion and tax saving is very thin. And in many cases its settled with a negotiation, long before any raid takes place.



Especially in Germany, the scare tactics tend to be used a lot.

One example, German Tax Authorities buy Bank Account Information, delivered on a CD. They then issued a public warning, saying : If you turn yourself in, pay your taxes and a fine, you won't go to jail.

Of course, a lot of people get scared, and turn themselves in, although they never would've gotten caught.

The scare tactic is important, because it shows who the boss is , before the negotiation even starts.


It's very similar to the Mafia. If you don't pay your protection money, we burn down your store. If you pay, no problem, you can continue. It's your choice, after all you live in a democracy. But just to make a point, we'll break you leg, just so you know who you're dealing with.


In Germany they definitely have a lot more authority than the Police. They have authorities very similar to the Secret Service! (e.g. spying on the suspect, buying confidential data).

It is a big debate whether their methods are justified (e.g. buying stolen data), and it has been going on for years.


Well, I think you're slightly exaggerating :D

SGS

People are living longer and taxes are getting harder to avoid. The time will come I am sure.

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BigPinPin

I am german and I can tell you one thing.... in germany you can kill your enemy and maybe they kick your ass in jail for maybe 1-3 years, you can burn your enemys house and say that god told you so...maybe the take you to jail or a psycho circus for 1-2 years and THAT's IT.....you can do that in germany and you don'T have to fear real trouble BUT NEVER EVER get the idea to hide 5 Euros from the criminal gestapo tax department....THEY will kick your ass like nobody else, even if it's 20 cents...they don't care and they are able to destroy your whole future.

Of course, who wants to spend 55-60% of his income to an idiot state like germany? If you don't want to, go, take all of your shit and start your business, future etc. somewhere else...that's no problem but don't even think about to hide money that was generated in germany....they will hunt you until they get you.

In this case....well.....I think that was just the beginning....

Shap

I'm being paid over the next 10 years so I'm not worried about any little delays here and there. Long term baby

NewNick

Sarcasm ? right ?

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halfpint

If u try and fuck the tax man over he will get u in the end There is a witch hunt for tax evaders over here in the uk atm, The gov need all the money they can get thier hands on and they are going after the big companys who try thier best to avoid taxes.

Simple solution is dont fuck with the tax man no matter how clever your accountants are, u will get caught.


bout 10 years ago I got caught for non payment but I was not hauled of to jail, and it was not a huge amount, but lucky for me the tax office were pretty good with me when I went down to get it sorted out, times have changed since then, and our Gov want thier money

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DWB

Too early to speculate if you should worry or not. But I wouldn't rule anything out either.

Wish you luck either way, you've always seemed like one of the good guys.

Shap

Thanks man. I was just joking. I've already been paid in full.

Konda

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/996/Eco...opgepakt.dhtml

MaDalton

but we all know that FJ Wagner is a giant nutcase, no one with more than 3 brain cells takes that guy seriously

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Phoenix

i have always wondered that also....the completely free access to hardcore porn on such a large scale...and to be based in the one country that actively says it is illegal.

Anyway...It wont affect me one way or the other.
I am sure his family misses him, that part is sad.

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PR_Phil

this is an extradition case, there is no bail, he will be held until he is transferred back to Germany.

In extradition cases, it does not matter if the crime a person was arrested for was minor, or even if they are viewed as not being a flight risk. The idea is that you are holding a guy with the intent of sending him somewhere he does not want to go. I am not sure if the law on it is identical everywhere, or very different, but in the US there has to be a very special circumstance in order for bail to be granted, and most requests for bail are denied.

here is a statement from the supreme court on the subject:

"The demanding government,
when it has done all that the
treaty and the law require it to
do, is entitled to the delivery of
the accused on the issue of the
proper warrant, and the other
government is under obligation
to make the surrender; an
obligation which it might be
impossible to fulfill if release
on bail were permitted. The
enforcement of the bond, if
forfeited, would hardly meet
the international demand; and
the regaining of the custody of
the accused obviously would
be surrounded with serious
embarrassment.
23"

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SKUP

What I don't get is why people bring up US-laws. US and EU laws are very different. So to make this clear: Fabian was arrested in Belgium, which happens to be the capital of Amsterdam, which is colonized by Germany.

HushMoney

you sir, are a genius!

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NatalieK

Us British are under more pressure than any one in the industry at the moment. Especially with US processing laws, British broadcasting & on demand licensing. It's crazy, but yet we're still having to deal with it.

But yes SKUP, the EU laws are different, but tax is tax all over the world

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