If you lent all of your money on prosper, then yes. If you were lending to the point you need a bailout, yes. That would make you fucking stupid.

My pundit "buddies"
Tony where do you get this stuff?

As for the Bush vs. Kerry election...here are the numbers:

Bush: 62,028,285 50.7%
Kerry: 59,028,109 48.3%

And I think it was being called a mandate because the Republican Party (not Bush) was in firm control of both the Senate and House.

Unfortunately for all the sheep...neither Republicans or Dems really give a damn about the citizens. So the Republican Congress just began filling the pockets of their cronies. Just like the Dems are doing now.

Disgraceful how things are done in Washington...which is why I can't fathom why you or anybody else could possibly be in favor of giving them more money to steal. :(

I think Gore probably would have went into Afghanistan too. And I think it would have been just as huge of a mistake.

Hindsight is 20/20 though.
And using hindsight, I'd say it's safe to presume that our country overreacted to 9-11.

The actual guys who did it...were all dead (it was a suicide mission).

We should have quietly sent a team in to kill Bin Laden, and went forward with putting steel doors on the pilots cabin. Maybe even had a few months of extra security at airports.

Instead we invaded an entire country. :(
And then used that precedent to pre-emptively invade another country.

And of course we now are all searched like criminals 11 years after a handful of nutjobs used box cutters to take over the pilots cabin on some airplanes.

And my guess is...we'll still be searched for the rest of our lives. It'll never end. And not because it makes us "safe". But because the TSA is now a giant bloated bureaucracy.

He's a lady on the street and a freak in the sheets. I thought that is a good thing?

We voted a Republican into the White House (Bush) and then we voted a Democrat in. Period.

But isn't that always the case?

We we not brought down to our hands and knees while Bush was in the White House? It didn't happen while Bush was office? It didn't happen at the end of eight years of Bush in the White House?

Who's fault was it? Obama's? Clinton's?

During the last year President Bush we lost 2.6 million jobs.

No we were not "brought down to our hands and knees" by Bush.
We were brought down by the housing market collapsing which brought down the banks and triggered an economic collapse brought on by bills passed in Congress during the 1990s that created the housing bubble.
Stop pretending you don't know that.

And we didn't lose 2 million jobs during the "last year". It was more like the last couple of months when the housing market crashed in Sept. of 2008

You're just acting like you don't know this right?

I agree. And I can totally relate to Obama on that.
While most people have trouble speaking before an audience, I'm just the opposite.

I get a little closed off from people one-on-one, but I feel far more at ease speaking to crowds.

I'm guessing Obama is the same way.

No I believe it wouldnt of happened. Richard Clarke warned them and it was ignored.

You are mistaken sir they lost control in 2004 during the second term election of W. Your pundit friends were saying it was a mandate for Bush. The reason I say pundit friends is because atl music radio blows so I will listen to talk in the car any type of talk. At night its all right wing talk here and they use the same exact phrases.

I guess he could be compared to Jobs with his personality. Mesmerizing in front of an audience, an ass in private.

Bill Clinton was warned. He had two golden opportunities to take out bin laden and he
passed.

Everyone was warned that there was going to be a terrorist attack prior to 9/11. The only problem was no one knew, who, what, when or where.

You are way off on that. The Republicans gained even more seats and held complete control over the House and Senate in 2004.

It was the election of 2006 that changed that. Remember? Nancy Pelosi became the first woman Speaker that year when the Dems took over in 2007 and Harry Reid became Senate Majority Leader

You need to start googling this shit up before you argue your points. :) The Republicans trounced the Dems in 2004 elections.

But by 2006 the country was ready for change and the Dems regained control of both houses.

I agree those kinds of changes take time and happen gradually. People thought a 5 day work week was ridiculous when it was first implemented. People thought letting women vote was a terrible idea. People thought blacks counted as 3/5ths of a person. The fact that what I am suggesting is not 'more of the same' is exactly what makes it so important. We do not have a temporary economic problem. We do not have a job loss overseas problem. What we have is globalization and industrialization with a technology base that continually accelerates.

The gap in time from the wheel to fire to bronze was insanely long compared to the gap between computers to the internet to everyone having a handheld always on device. The number of people that used to be needed to provide food, clothing, shelter and basic security for all of us was many times the size of the number needed to do it now. We are in one of the worst droughts in recorded history, at a time when the whole world is in financial crisis and yet you won't find a single kind of food missing from supermarket shelves. We accomplish that with many less farm workers, many less farms and much less arable land than we used to use. Think about that. We used to need several people to open a brick and mortal storefront and staff it... now I can open a dozen internet storefronts a day by myself and never hire a single cashier, stock-boy, shipping agent, billing department, HR personnel, etc... The nature of production has fundamentally changed, especially regarding the monotonous labor-intensive tasks that suit many people as their best possible form of employment.

We have 'extra people' in our society. Our medicine is too advanced for massive plagues to wipe out a big percentage of us at once. Our wars are fought with drones and small skilled teams... if you ever sent 100K soldiers out onto the battlefield a few tactical nukes, biological warheads and other mechanical weapons would wipe them all off of it. Wars of attrition are a thing of the past. That's a massive decrease in the number of people who exit our planet compared to what used to take place every few decades. Population growth is highest among the poorest and least educated parts of our society. If you play video games it's akin to having a great game without any gold sinks or durability loss on items... the game fails because you don't need to produce at a fast rate anymore...

So long as we fail to address the ACTUAL problems, we are just throwing a fresh coat of makeup on a two dollar whore and trying to tell the world she is Jacqueline Smith. Reality is the makeup already isn't working now and will work less and less and less as the whore gets older, less healthy and more expensive to maintain. The real 'battle' here is what do we do with all the extra people? Start a war and kill them off? Wait for a plague? Seriously figure out how to create moon colonies and other sci-fi solutions? Stop subsidizing elder care and let only wealthy people reach their maximum potential age? Go to a 4 day work week to 'create jobs' for people we don't need? Give tax credits to convince some parents to stay home and raise their kids better while creating jobs for others who we don't actually need?

It sounds far fetched... and at the time so did ending slavery, letting women vote, imposing a 5 day work week, and all the other social engineering that we have done in the past to evolve our society. :2 cents:

All true but for one key point you are forgetting... Obama, Romney, the Dems and the GOP are all funded by exactly the same people. Yes, the Unions favor one over the other and the Koch brothers favor one over the other... but for the most part they get the same money from Goldman Sachs, the Billionaires and the meaningful CEOs. That crowd sits down together often enough and so do the politicians behind closed doors.

My strong suspicion is that a deal has already been cut, including detailed policy changes AND the way in which the deal will be announced, packaged, sold to low ranking politicians and to the public. Obama, Boehner, Mitch McConnell, Pelosi, and their cronies already have the deal in their pocket in pencil. They may even have discussed Obama making outlandish requests for 1.6T in taxes just so they could save face by saying "we got him down to 900B and that was the best we could do."

If I'm right it will be capped deductions, a much smaller tax increase than you expect, a buffet rule, roughly equal budget cuts (mostly from the military) AND they already know the details but don't want to make it seem like the GOP caved too easily or that Obama wimped out.

They all have the same masters. We no longer have a true 2 party system. :2 cents:

I was specifically referring to personal income tax rates, not corporate.

Maybe in a Hollywood script sort of way, but I think you give these people entirely too much credit. The way obamacare was handled is more likely how things really are. Basically a bunch of people who really dislike each other,but still think they are doing the right thing as far as their voting base goes and maybe in a few cases as far as the country goes.

Dude, I wasn't hassling you at all. We actually agree on most things. I was getting to the big lie that's been running for 30 years: that lower taxes for the very rich encourages job creation and a robust economy.

That idea has been shown to be false, yet the the very rich - via 1)their mostly republican shills and 2)their outsized ability to manipulate the media - have continued selling this lemon.

If they were smart Monday afternoon they would hold a press conference and say "We have come to an agreement" and put it to rest and give the people some security in knowing what to expect instead of running this shit up for dramatic value and waiting until the last minute.

This has been brewing for 3+ years... the fiscal cliff is a remnant of the debt ceiling debacle. The Axelrods and McConnells of the world aren't standing around with their hands in their pockets having no idea what will happen in either case after election day happens. Them 'hating' each other is like two NFL teams 'hating' each other... they can try very hard to win a game but they are all actually on the same team when it comes to anything meaningful on a career basis. The players association has their allegiance much more than their coaching staff, fans or current team owner. Congress and the White House are much the same.

We both remember when Farve 'let' Strahan tackle him to set the all time single season sack record, and their other examples of that sort of cronyism. That's the kind of meta-camaraderie that makes Congress and Citizens United so dangerous. They say they are on different teams, they say they represent different regions... but in reality they will all lay down and allow the other side to sack them because they are one team with a common agenda that supersedes their interests in actually representing We The People.

Deadbeats huh.. You do realize that it wasn't "dead beats" with no jobs buying these homes that were foreclosed on don't yea? In fact it was places like Texas where everyone had to have their McMansion same with FL, NV ect..ect and all over the US. Places like Cali had people buying absolute shit holes for a million bucks or more because the property values were inflated as fuck.

It wasn't dead beats with no jobs, that bought homes for $200k to a million five.. ect..ect

No. If the public was smart you would be right. Keep in mind, the public watches the Jersey Shore and The Real Housewives on Bravo. The public can't name 30 states on a map of this country if you take the State names off it and ask them to point to them. The public watches debates to see who 'won' by making a snarky zinger... not to see who was right or who lied the most.

Intelligent people would welcome an immediate result and accept the terms of a true compromise. The public has a very small minority of intelligent people. Most people are idiots and this show is being scripted for the masses unfortunately.

What we have now is a society that placates stupidity and takes advantage of dumb people who are willing to vote against their own interests. What our society ought to do is educate dumb people to the limit of their capacity and protect them (from others and from themselves).

We are not far off from Idiocracy:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...iQtt4jzMtwZih_

And most idiots crave a soap opera more than a solution. :2 cents:

Couple things.

"Obamacare" as you call it, is actually a republican plan (written by the Heritage Foundation) that has been kicking around for 20 years. Oh and BTW, it's exactly the plan Romney enacted in Massachusetts. Of course, they won't tell you that on Fox:disgust

Perfect example of what's so comical about the right-wing propaganda machine calling President Blackenstein a 'socialist'. The 'socialist' thing to do would have been to go for a Single Payer system, which he didn't.

Second thing: "but still think they are doing the right thing as far as their voting base goes and maybe in a few cases as far as the country goes."

I completely disagree with you here. IMO, 98% of our nationally elected officials (US house of reps, senate & president) are nothing more than servants of the people who paid to get them elected, ie. huge money interests. Here's the key thing: it's not just 'commit to what we want and we'll fund your campaign.' The next step is 'as long as you play ball, once you leave office you can count on cushy employment in our industry'.

It's called the Revolving Door, and it's very well documented. Look it up, you'll see.

Watched something on the History Channel today about Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan. The same things we are arguing over today in politics people were arguing over back then.

The rich have always manipulated and corrupted politics. Money buys access and power. Always has, always will.

It's political suicide to mess with entitlements.

Seriously,you think you have some profound wisdom? What you just labored over is not a secret. MSNBC has been broadcasting these exact sentiments for the last several years.

Yeah you're right on that one.
I guess I was projecting myself as the public.
I would love for them to say
Hey, we worked it out. Here's what's going down.

I liked that series.
Crooked motherfuckers! :thumbsup

I do believe that they will come up with a solution. I don't believe for a moment that these people are that clever. I know some of these people personally. I have had two state senators at my house. I knew senator Proxmire very well and for nearly 10 years I was an active member of the Aspin(Les) institute. From my experience,these people are dedicated to a cause, but were definitely not that clever.

wow! great pithy, non-substantive response. fyi, i don't watch msnbc. i do my own homework. see sig.

and btw, i'm willing to bet that they don't say what i said about 98% of their 'team'

Of course, they won't tell you that on Fox

And you were expecting a serious response?

Not from you, no.

Once again, see sig.

But why didn't the Bush administration see this and prevent this?

it probably wasn't the best choice of words... but the way some people played this out irritates me...

I know a few people, who put zero down, bought a house, later the value of the house declined, they were able to pay the mortgage, but decided to stop paying, by the time foreclosure proceedings were done, they ended up living in a house for free for 2 years... and of course during the whole process they felt no shame at all, and just boasted how clever they are...

all while I was paying for my housing like a sucker... you don't think that's bullshit?

Wait are you arguing they aren't all friends and playing politics together? That there isn't some give and take going on behind closed doors? I hope you are not naive enough to believe that and it's just be not following the sidebar discussion close enough.

Being friends with former and current Congressional staffers on both sides of the aisle and friends with the son of a US Rep (like dad roaming house in bathrobe and slippers friend) you cannot be further from the truth.

The people they hate on the floor and on news channels are the same people that will come by for a cocktail party. Do you think they don't discuss biz and negotiate?

You mean it doesn't work like all the major media outlets tell us it does? That these guys ALL hate the other side with a passion, and they're NOT all (more or less) on the same team?!?!

That's crazy talk, man! :winkwink:

That's not what Relentless said. Not even close.

There are 537 people involved directly in the decision making process and many hundreds if not thousands more indirectly. There are not 3 people on this board or anywhere else that can agree on anything. If you prefer to believe that the whole government is scripted for our viewing pleasure then that is your choice...

My guess is because it was raining money and the economy was flying.

There were politicians on both sides of the aisle who warned about it (just like politicians on both sides created it to begin with).

Some things are just dumb I guess.

It reminds me of our country being in so much debt. I hear pundits on CNN say that the debt doesn't matter and we should be deficit spending when the economy is like this...

And just like that whole mortgage mess, it will eventually blow up in our faces.

Seems like the govt. always tries to spin shit that doesn't make ANY common sense, and they try to play it off like it's just too complicated for any of us to understand.

And then when it all goes south (like happened in 2008), they talk out of the other side of their mouths and say: "Of course that couldn't last!"

All those politicians are crooks who are lining their cronies pockets straight from the Bank Of The United States Of America.

Bush didn't care about you or me. Obama doesn't either. Neither did Reagan, or Carter, or Ford...or any politician EVER.

I clipped most of your comment Robbie, but i want to focus on this point. I know that wasn't your whole point, but go with me for a moment.

As i've said about a million times, I completely agree with this.

When you can borrow money at 0% interest with express purpose of stimulating the economy, you fucking do it.

History has shown time and again that austerity in tough economic times is a recipe for disaster. Look it up, you'll see.

Email me some time.
I have known more of them than you seem to imagine, but I don't discuss those sorts of things on porn boards.
Some of them are exceptionally clever. Most of them vote as they are told.

Up to a point yes. But with a debt of 16 TRILLION dollars...common sense says something has to give.

And when the cycle comes around and inflation hits and interest rates rise...that's when all this debt is going to bitch slap us all.
Common sense says to not borrow more than you can EVER pay back.

That's what killed the economy in the housing collapse. And it's what is going to happen in the end when inflation hits and interest rates rise.

There are less than 20 people 'involved directly in the decision making process' and at most 40 or 50 more than that who are indirectly involved. The rest take their cues from those involved and toe the party line or quickly wind up marginalized before being replaced.

Congress is not comprised of 535 people with relatively equal clout. A freshman congressman from Wyoming doesn't get a say in much of anything. A career politician who has become chairman of an important committee in Congress or one who can throw financial support from major backers behind other candidates to help them get reelected runs the show.

Boehner, McConnell, Obama, Axelrod, Pelosi, McCain, Kerry, Biden, Lindsay Graham etc are the ones who will be making the fiscal cliff decisions. They have known each other for decades and will quietly make their deal long before anyone else is brought into any 'discussions.'

Meanwhile, Phil Roe the freshman Congressman from Tennessee and the rest of his classmates likely won't even be asked their opinion about the deal. They will be told how to vote and what not to say. Most of them don't even know the Rules of Order until their 3rd or 4th term. :2 cents:

Afghanistan was always a war we had to partake in after 9/11. We did good at the start and after it was going well Bush pulled troops out of Afghan to invade Iraq. Afghanistan likely would have been won years ago had this not happened. Potentially even under Bush's admin had he not changed the target to Iraq.

Simply put Bush dropped the ball and let al qaeda regroup and splinter off into many various groups that we now still fight today.

I'm pretty certain that Gore would have never gone into Iraq, but just like anyone else he would have gone intro Afghanistan, but with that as the only focus it would have most likely been finished by now.

I don't disagree. However,even though in practice things must run fairly close to how you stated it, each senator and congressman still has a vote. It only takes a handful of mavericks to change the status quo.

You must agree though, that getting 20 ego-driven and arrogant people to agree on something is never a slam-dunk guarantee.

There is no debate from me that Bush going into Iraq when he did gained nothing but dismal short-term results on every possible level. Long term, only time will tell. I do believe the world is a better place without the Hussein regime.

I understand your position. The only two I named have been dead for years. Mr.Proxmire was influential but socially a clod. Mr.Aspin was clever and could sell snow to Canadians. The fellows I know today are decent people that worked hard to build businesses. They did quite well for themselves and entered politics as a way to give back to society.

I hate to break it to you, but Iceland went bankrupt.

Thank you. Where the FUCK were the "fiscal conservatives" when the Bush bastard chose to invade Iraq?

He has.

Federal Spending, Taxes, and Deficits Are Lower Today Than When Obama Took Office

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...office/257256/

Minte, why do you bother? 99.9% of your audience here makes under $40k a year and spends their days explaining how smart they are on a chat board.