Middle Class Shrinks to ALL-TIME LOW - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Relentless · 09-15-2012, 05:26 AM

The middle class did not shrink... That's a misnomer. That would imply some people went from middle to wealthy and others went from middle to poor. What actually happened is the number of poor people grew quite a bit, and the people already wealthy became more wealthy.

Growth of poverty is not a shrinking middle class... It's many new poor people and almost zero new wealthy ones...

woj · 09-15-2012, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

The middle class did not shrink... That's a misnomer. That would imply some people went from middle to wealthy and others went from middle to poor. What actually happened is the number of poor people grew quite a bit, and the people already wealthy became more wealthy.

Growth of poverty is not a shrinking middle class... It's many new poor people and almost zero new wealthy ones...

You are slightly mistaken, number of "High-net-worth individual" (HNWI, $1m+ net worth) almost doubled since 1999... so quite a few people do in fact move from middle class to the upper class...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNWI#Capgemini_figures

Mutt · 09-15-2012, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

The middle class did not shrink... That's a misnomer. That would imply some people went from middle to wealthy and others went from middle to poor. What actually happened is the number of poor people grew quite a bit, and the people already wealthy became more wealthy.

Growth of poverty is not a shrinking middle class... It's many new poor people and almost zero new wealthy ones...

how can you state that like it's a fact when you post no evidence? i am sure plenty of people have gone from middle class to poor(lost a good job, non-replaced or replaced with a minimum wage job) and plenty of people have gone from middle class to rich(tech industry)

L-Pink · 09-15-2012, 06:13 AM

Here's a little math problem for striking teachers .....

There is a profession that relies heavily on property taxes to fund it's overhead. The real estate market is terrible and property values both residential and commercial is falling. So is revenue, where will money for increased budgets come from?

(I have commercial property that currently pays 9.5% of GROSS rental income in property taxes)

.

tony286 · 09-15-2012, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

Regan was in the 80's you moron! The biggest decline of the middle class has occurred since the start of Obama's trickle up poverty economic policies!

You are mistaken, learn facts then we can talk.

geedub · 09-15-2012, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Public school teachers have Masters Degrees? WTF????

You'd think the kids would be better educated if that's the case.

They get a masters TO GET A RAISE and nothing more.

BlackCrayon · 09-15-2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

wow, you're all class

its uncalled for to call her a whore but he makes a very valid point that this society values the valueless way more than the things that actually keep society running.

Paul Markham · 09-15-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

It's been happening for nearly 40 years. Ever since Wall St & the Government shook hands and became partners.

Yeah, "trickle down" works

Look at the economy and manufacturing industries over the same period.

America became great by being the manufacturing power house for WW2. It rose through the 50s, 60s, 70s then the rest of the world started to catch up.

India as well.

It's those big business Republicans exporting jobs that's too blame.

https://www.google.com/search?num=10....1.ZiYQXox8jZY

Robbie · 09-15-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

the middle class shouldn't be so worried about the super rich - they've always existed and always will. most normal people don't even dream of being that rich and don't care.

it's the public sector workers getting paid fat paychecks and moreso fat pensions and always asking for more that should piss them off.

small businessman, whether he/she runs a sandwich shop, carpet cleaning, sells insurance, whatever - that person risks his own money to start his business, pays rent, pays for equipment, pays some employees, works his ass off, small business owners typically take NO vacations until years into a small business when it's successful. If that person works their ass off they will make the 70K per year the garbageman makes, the school nurse makes, the teacher makes, guys in trade unions make, middle management types working for the federal and state goverment - teachers put in 3 years of undergraduate school and one year of teachers college, wow what a huge undertaking that is, takes a real genius and so much work to make it through that. the small businessman has to pay for his own retirement - the only upside for the small businessman is the chance his business takes off and he makes $200,000 or $2,000,000 a year. I don't have stats but I bet just as many of those small businessmen go bankrupt as those who make it big.

Somebody posted an article here not that long ago about state employed California beach lifeguards - retiring in their 40's with $800,000 pensions! That's the middle class's tax money funding those pensions.

A good teacher is worth 70K a year or more - 75% of them aren't good teachers, they do the minimum, inspire nobody, make an upper middle class income with job security and have a nice pension waiting for them at retirement.

the basics of our economy are fucked up and you can't blame one party for it, the world has changed and adapting to it is hard - so people lash out at the rich for causing all the problems when the rich are only a small part of it. Stop running out and buying iPhones that are manufactured overseas, stop shopping at Walmart and support the small businesses in your cities, stop buying BMW's and Audis .................. of course the middle class is shrinking - the jobs that have replaced the well paid manufacturing jobs of yesteryear are low paying service jobs.

Great point!

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Here's a little math problem for striking teachers .....

There is a profession that relies heavily on property taxes to fund it's overhead. The real estate market is terrible and property values both residential and commercial is falling. So is revenue, where will money for increased budgets come from?

(I have commercial property that currently pays 9.5% of GROSS rental income in property taxes)

.

And another excellent point.

TheSquealer · 09-15-2012, 03:17 PM

Of course, when the economy slows, even more unemployable dipshits are unemployed.

People who aren't dipshits tend to be ok. People who are bright and hard workers have a tendency to land on their feet very quickly.

Great employees are the last to go. Barely productive Idiots who spend their days complaining, blaming anything and everything for their low station in life, tend to get let go first and stay unemployed longer. We have a whole new generation of lazy assholes who understand nothing but instant gratification and who posess an unreal sense of entitlement that are just like people in this biz who bitch non stop about tubes - as if it's not their fault the world is leaving them behind. Even sadder is that a person can get elected for president by saying absolutely nothing but "hope" and "change" and everyone is stunned that he didn't change the world, turn the economy on a dime and make their house payments for them.

This thread is not about rich vs poor. This thread is about the end of an empire. The end of a dream. The end of work ethic. The end of sacrifice and dedication. This thread is about a nation founded by people who were hungry for success and worshipped success - where those hungry people were slowly displaced by morbidly obese idiots, esting themselves to desth and who have turned to blsming others rather than striving for and worshipping success.

But hey... Support Obama, blame Reagan, blame Obama, Blame Bush, support Bush, blame Obama etc... The USA will still be a nation in deckihe full of worthless idiots with a growing sense of entitlement and waning work ethic.

2012 · 09-15-2012, 03:18 PM

we're not in a depression because we can just print more money. yes, oh yes please yes more please thank you Jesus

Barefootsies · 09-15-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

We have a whole new generation of lazy assholes who understand nothing but instant gratification and who posess an unreal sense of entitlement that are just like people in this biz who bitch non stop about tubes - as if it's not their fault the world is leaving them behind. Even sadder is that a person can get elected for president by saying absolutely nothing but "hope" and "change" and everyone is stunned that he didn't change the world, turn the economy on a dime and make their house payments for them.

Relentless · 09-15-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

how can you state that like it's a fact when you post no evidence? i am sure plenty of people have gone from middle class to poor(lost a good job, non-replaced or replaced with a minimum wage job) and plenty of people have gone from middle class to rich(tech industry)

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/mitt-romneys-definition-of-the-middle-class-is-pretty-weird-in-1-graph/262402/
According to Romney and the Obama tax plan BOTH candidates view middle class as people earning 200-250K per year (yes, I know the median income in the US is closer to 50K)
But according to BOTH candidates, if you make more than 250K you are doing well enough to be considered above the middle class level.
How many people make that amount? Roughly 4% of the country.

Middle class is a bogus term used to manipulate people into ignoring the math.
More people are becoming poor than are becoming wealthy. The numbers aren't close.
Wages and income of people in 95+% of households have stagnated or declined while incomes among the top 1% have skyrocketed.

Whether that's ok or not can be debated. Whether it is because some work harder or just got luckier or both can be debated.
The simple math of what is happening demographically is objective fact. Many more people are getting poorer and a few are getting much much wealthier.

Whether you are OK with that or not is a matter of opinion. Whether it is happening or not... is not an item of data in question.

Relentless · 09-15-2012, 04:44 PM

Some more data for you mutt,

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/...of-all-income/

Quote:

The growth at the top came at the expense of middle- and low-income earners. After the top, each quintile of income earners saw their share of income decrease, with the biggest drop among middle income earners. The middle fifth of households took in 14.3% of all income last year, the lowest since 1967 and down from 14.6% in 2010.

The middle class is not a group of people that remains static and moves up or down. Most people are getting poorer and a very few are becoming much wealthier. That is not a 'shrinking of the middle class', it is a larger divide between wealthy and poor... and the volume of poor is rapidly outpacing the number of wealthy. As a simple matter of arithmetic, that much is known.

Relentless · 09-15-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

You are slightly mistaken, number of "High-net-worth individual" (HNWI, $1m+ net worth) almost doubled since 1999... so quite a few people do in fact move from middle class to the upper class...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNWI#Capgemini_figures

Woj, assuming your numbers are correct (I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, but let's take your numbers as a given), when you say 'almost doubled' what you mean is 'went from 6 million to 10.9 million' - a change of 4.9 million people over the last 13 years. Do you really think that the other 287+ million people in the country are doing as well or better over the same period of time? That 5 million new millionaires is 1.6% of the population... By contrast http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/13/news/economy/poverty_rate_income/index.htm shows you since 2000 three times as many people have fallen into poverty as have become millionaires, with poverty defined as earning less than $11,139 per indivual in annual income.

If your Wikipedia numbers are accurate 4 million people became millionaires while 3x as many fell into poverty. Median income has changed very little over the last 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, the middle-income family only earned 11% more in 2010 than they did in 1980, while the richest 5% in America saw their incomes surge 42%. Again, why this happens is debatable... If it is OK or not is debatable... Whether or not it is happening is objective fact and basic arithmetic.

Rochard · 09-15-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

This thread is not about rich vs poor. This thread is about the end of an empire. The end of a dream. The end of work ethic. The end of sacrifice and dedication. This thread is about a nation founded by people who were hungry for success and worshipped success - where those hungry people were slowly displaced by morbidly obese idiots, esting themselves to desth and who have turned to blsming others rather than striving for and worshipping success.

Um, the end of what empire? Did the United States loose something?

Paul Markham · 09-16-2012, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

We have a whole new generation of lazy assholes who understand nothing but instant gratification and who posess an unreal sense of entitlement that are just like people in this biz who bitch non stop about tubes - as if it's not their fault the world is leaving them behind. Even sadder is that a person can get elected for president by saying absolutely nothing but "hope" and "change" and everyone is stunned that he didn't change the world, turn the economy on a dime and make their house payments for them.

Agreed.

An ex shooter I know, in the UK, is now sitting at home moaning about not being able to find a job. While my brother in law and his wife are in the UK working. One Czech the other Polish, along with loads of other fellow county men and women. From out village alone there are people going to the UK to work in manual or low end jobs. Until some form of force is put on those laying around to work, they will continue to find excuses.

Heard today employers are looking very favourably at volunteers to the Olympics and giving them jobs over those who did nothing. Not surprised.

tony286 · 09-16-2012, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Of course, when the economy slows, even more unemployable dipshits are unemployed.

People who aren't dipshits tend to be ok. People who are bright and hard workers have a tendency to land on their feet very quickly.

Great employees are the last to go. Barely productive Idiots who spend their days complaining, blaming anything and everything for their low station in life, tend to get let go first and stay unemployed longer. We have a whole new generation of lazy assholes who understand nothing but instant gratification and who posess an unreal sense of entitlement that are just like people in this biz who bitch non stop about tubes - as if it's not their fault the world is leaving them behind. Even sadder is that a person can get elected for president by saying absolutely nothing but "hope" and "change" and everyone is stunned that he didn't change the world, turn the economy on a dime and make their house payments for them.

This thread is not about rich vs poor. This thread is about the end of an empire. The end of a dream. The end of work ethic. The end of sacrifice and dedication. This thread is about a nation founded by people who were hungry for success and worshipped success - where those hungry people were slowly displaced by morbidly obese idiots, esting themselves to desth and who have turned to blsming others rather than striving for and worshipping success.

But hey... Support Obama, blame Reagan, blame Obama, Blame Bush, support Bush, blame Obama etc... The USA will still be a nation in deckihe full of worthless idiots with a growing sense of entitlement and waning work ethic.

Really people still dont worship success? All the TV shows where they show the wonderful lives of someone with a shit load of cash, someone has to watch them or they wouldnt make them.How does Tony Robbins have a career then?How Kim K or Paris Hilton ? Their only reason for their celebrity was they came from money. Or Donald Trump the man writes books and they are best sellers. Has hit tv shows.
People still worship success,Steve Jobs is treated like a god. US worker productivity is at a all time high.
There is no blame,the middle class is truly getting fucked. And people like yourself buy the talking points.
Not everybody wants to be a millionaire or a small biz owner and thats ok You have to workers for the system to work. They want to work hard make a wage so they can support their families. That's not too much to ask. That's what made america great, a strong middle class. During the great years you speak about CEO pay was 18 to 20 times avg worker pay now its 200x. So its not they cant find hard workers here its they cant make 200x if they hire workers here.
You want to respond to me great but please no name calling. Im talking to you like an adult with respect, I ask the same back.

DudeRick · 09-16-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

You are mistaken, learn facts then we can talk.

You make a statement about Reagan starting a problem and you don't even know when he was president and you tell me to learn facts before I talk?!? Jesus what a pompous fucking liberal idiot!

tony286 · 09-16-2012, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

You make a statement about Reagan starting a problem and you don't even know when he was president and you tell me to learn facts before I talk?!? Jesus what a pompous fucking liberal idiot!

Really? The first time I voted was for Reagan for his second term. Lol

DudeRick · 09-16-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

It started during Reagan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286;

Really? The first time I voted was for Reagan for his second term. Lol

So which is it? Are you an idiot that doesn't know when Reagan was president or an idiot that can't read a chart that starts to decline in 1970?

Bryan G · 09-16-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

That's not a lot for a Masters Degree. Want them to make min wage?

All teachers have a masters degrees??? Don't think so lol. Teachers are extremely over paid (at least in canada). Where else can you make 80k a year, work 6 hrs a day, have 10 weeks holidays, retire with 80% of your income.

tony286 · 09-16-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

All teachers have a masters degrees??? Don't think so lol. Teachers are extremely over paid (at least in canada). Where else can you make 80k a year, work 6 hrs a day, have 10 weeks holidays, retire with 80% of your income.

Actually teachers work alot more than that. Papers get graded by themselves?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...xYGS_blog.html
A new report from Scholastic and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, called Primary Sources: America?s Teachers on the Teaching Profession, finally quantifies just how hard teachers work: 10 hours and 40 minutes a day on average. That?s a 53-hour work week!

These numbers are indicative of teachers? dedication to the profession and their willingness to go above and beyond to meet students? needs. It never was, and certainly isn?t now, a bell-to-bell job.

The 7.5 hours in the classroom are just the starting point. On average, teachers are at school an additional 90 minutes beyond the school day for mentoring, providing after-school help for students, attending staff meetings and collaborating with peers. Teachers then spend another 95 minutes at home grading, preparing classroom activities, and doing other job-related tasks. The workday is even longer for teachers who advise extracurricular clubs and coach sports ?11 hours and 20 minutes, on average. As one Kentucky teacher surveyed put it, ?Our work is never done. We take grading home, stay late, answer phone calls constantly, and lay awake thinking about how to change things to meet student needs.?

Bryan G · 09-16-2012, 01:09 PM

Oh right because teachers SAY they work that amount of hours. So it must be true! Point still stands. They make 80k plus a year , get 10 if not more weeks holidays and retire with a pension most would dream of. I can maybe name one teacher that had an influence on my life, most we worthless wanks. Those who can do! Those who can't, teach! Any idiot can be a teacher. What's the difference between a teacher and a baby sitter? Oh that's right the over paid salary paid by tax payers.

Colmike9 · 09-16-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

What's the difference between a teacher and a baby sitter? Oh that's right the over paid salary paid by tax payers.

Exactly! There were so many worthless piece of shit teachers at my school and only pretended to teach when administrators came in for evaluations and one actually gave me the grade book once to do her grades and said "Just do As and Bs"..

(We ended up getting her fired for something else, though..)

But there were about 3 that taught me so much about programming, robotics, 3d and SEO, so there's that. But those teachers were the smart quiet ones that never got rewarded for going the extra mile..

Robbie · 09-16-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Actually teachers work alot more than that. Papers get graded by themselves?

When I was in high school in the 1970's I always applied to be a "teachers assistant" in my classes.
Guess what I did?

I graded the papers. And so did all the other teachers assistants during the different class periods.

Not saying that teachers don't stay after school an hour or two. They do.

My high school started at 8:30 a.m. I'm sure the teachers were there by 7 a.m. for that.
It let out each day at 2:15 p.m. I'm sure they stayed over an hour maybe two.

So if they were there in the teachers lounge having coffee at 7, then went to their classroom and got set up to go for first period...and let's say went home at 4 p.m.
How is that harder than any "normal" job?

Most people have to be on the road by 6:30 a.m. or so to get to work on time through traffic. Most of them don't get home until 6:30 p.m. or later according to traffic.

Teaching is a good profession. But the teachers unions should simply be illegal. All public sector unions should be.

This is a direct quote from the biggest liberal Democrat President of ALL times...Franklin Delano Roosevelt:

"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters. Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable."

davethedope · 09-16-2012, 01:51 PM

All this anti-teacher sentiment- am I right to assume public education should be abolished?

Only those who can afford private schools should be taught?

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

Um, the end of what empire? Did the United States loose something?

Empires end most often with a shift in values, causing economic decline. Namely, that people are united behind growth and success (be it through conquest or other means) and once they are fat and happy, once the hunger and thirst for more is quenched and there is nothing left to fight for, their values change.

Patriotic or not, you have to admit that all empires die. The USA no longer has an identity. It's not the place to go live the "American Dream" that it once was. There are no values that unite people. There is no collective hunger for success. There is just a bunch of ADD assholes tweeting about their cats bowel movements, bitching about the 1% as they blame McDonalds for making them fat.

The middle class is in decline (and the nation) because values are in decline. That's just my opinion.

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davethedope

All this anti-teacher sentiment- am I right to assume public education should be abolished?

Only those who can afford private schools should be taught?

No, unions should be abolished and assholes that don't want their job because every time their contract is up for renewal, its decided that everything is "unfair" should be replaced with people that do want their jobs.

ANYONE who manages employees and/or owns a business knows that more and more money NEVER makes for happier employees. People need to be fairly compensated of course, people who aren't happy... need to be replaced with people who want to be there.

Bryan G · 09-16-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davethedope

All this anti-teacher sentiment- am I right to assume public education should be abolished?

Only those who can afford private schools should be taught?

Are you retarded? Serious question. Where did anyone say public school should be abolished? teachers are over paid for what they do, understand???

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Actually teachers work alot more than that. Papers get graded by themselves?

Blah blah blah... the age old argument.

And how many teachers were blind sided by the fact that they had to work? Something recently changed? The work load recently increased? No one knew what it meant to be a teacher BEFORE they decided to pursue a career in education?

We have one of the shittiest educational systems on the planet and the solution of course its always to throw more money at it... in the meantime, it continues decade after decade to decline. Weird how that works.

Teachers in the highest paying school districts in the nation have been striking off and on all through my life and always promising everything would get better if only everyone would put more money in their pockets and guess what? USA still sucks for public education.

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davethedope

All this anti-teacher sentiment

No one is "anti-teacher"... most intelligent people who have ran businesses or managed people on a large scale, understand the need to be "anti-shitty employee"

davethedope · 09-16-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Are you retarded? Serious question. Where did anyone say public school should be abolished? teachers are over paid for what they do, understand???

There has to be incentive for someone to do any job, though.

Teachers are educated people- and the old saying about doing and teaching is trite.

Good paid teaching jobs attract better teachers.

Plus, their salaries are adjusted to inflation.

They're not being overpaid.

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Really people still dont worship success? All the TV shows where they show the wonderful lives of someone with a shit load of cash, someone has to watch them or they wouldnt make them.How does Tony Robbins have a career then?How Kim K or Paris Hilton ? Their only reason for their celebrity was they came from money. Or Donald Trump the man writes books and they are best sellers. Has hit tv shows.

Yeah exactly my point. Everyone worships the no talent fucking morons that have nothing to offer anyone. No talent idiots are celebrated. A new nation of the instant gratification, ADD dipshits which we are now churning out like we are the worlds largest retard factory. They don't worship hard work, sacrifice, dedication and devotion. There is no sense of tremendous sacrifice and hard work that it takes to be successful. Every black kid when I was little used to want to be a pro athlete and knew what it took to get there, now they all want to be rappers and reality tv stars. Every white kid when I was little wanted an education, to be a doctor or own a business and now they want to gather in a park and blame banks because they stay stoned and play XBox all day.

Bryan G · 09-16-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davethedope

There has to be incentive for someone to do any job, though.

Teachers are educated people- and the old saying about doing and teaching is trite.

Good paid teaching jobs attract better teachers.

Plus, their salaries are adjusted to inflation.

They're not being overpaid.

Yes of course you have to have incentive. You honestly think teachers are not over paid??? Lol. I'm gonna guess either you or someone in your family are teachers. Look at the education of kids these days its a fucking disgrace. "Teachers" are paid close to 6 figures a year and most are absolulty hopeless and bitch and complain. Here in ontario the government just made it illegal for teachers to strike and what are they doing in protest??? Cancelling all sports, after hours activities etc. They say its about the "kids" lmao. Its about them and how they can get more money. Teachers are not most educated people. They have guides on how to run courses and curriculum . They should be happy with what they make and shut the fuck up, like most public unions that are paid by us the tax payers.

mineistaken · 09-16-2012, 02:40 PM

What about immigrants who flood in and work for minimum wage? That should account to middle class shrinking as well. Meaning that it actually does not shrink, just immigrant numbers are growing hence percentage of middle class people is going down.
Not saying it is the case, saying that it is part of the case.

davethedope · 09-16-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Yes of course you have to have incentive. You honestly think teachers are not over paid??? Lol. I'm gonna guess either you or someone in your family are teachers. Look at the education of kids these days its a fucking disgrace. "Teachers" are paid close to 6 figures a year and most are absolulty hopeless and bitch and complain. Here in ontario the government just made it illegal for teachers to strike and what are they doing in protest??? Cancelling all sports, after hours activities etc. They say its about the "kids" lmao. Its about them and how they can get more money. Teachers are not most educated people. They have guides on how to run courses and curriculum . They should be happy with what they make and shut the fuck up, like most public unions that are paid by us the tax payers.

Here in the states you need some advanced degree to teach or at least some specialized certification- I don't know about Ontario.

But, (and since you seem to like trite sayings) you get what you pay for. Don't expect much from the public schools.

Teachers should have the same rights as every bus driver, garbage collector, and street sweeper in the province- as your case may be.

I happen to think public schools produce morons- regardless of teachers, so it's neither here nor there.

Bryan G · 09-16-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davethedope

Here in the states you need some advanced degree to teach or at least some specialized certification- I don't know about Ontario.

But, (and since you seem to like trite sayings) you get what you pay for. Don't expect much from the public schools.

Teachers should have the same rights as every bus driver, garbage collector, and street sweeper in the province- as your case may be.

I happen to think public schools produce morons- regardless of teachers, so it's neither here nor there.

Teachers here after university have to go to teachers college. Some of the thickest people I know are teachers. Yes they have rights as do bus drivers, garbage collectors etc (all over paid btw). A garbage collector in Toronto probably makes 65k a year lol. To do what?? Throw a bag into a truck. In fact now all the trucks have automated arms and all they have to do is drive close to the garbage and the arm picks up the trash and tosses it into the truck. Don't get me started on their overtime. As soon as they work 7 hrs(they never work a full 7 hrs) its considered double time (again paid by us). I know garbage men that make 110k a year. You don't think that's a problem?

davethedope · 09-16-2012, 03:41 PM

How much should they be paid?

Garbage men making what, $48 dollars an hour? is a problem.

But you see this teacher problem- try taking that money away from them.

What do you think's going to happen?

Relentless · 09-16-2012, 03:53 PM

Pssst - when you don't pay workers enough to be consumers the whole economic system comes crashing down.
You want teachers and nurses and construction workers and civil servants earning enough to buy things.

The role of unions is one of establishing safety and fair wage levels. Most are corrupt.
That means you need to regulate unions better, not abolish unions.
Much the same way that we need to regulate oil companies better after the BP spill, not abolish oil companies.

Knee jerk solutions won't fix anything.

tony286 · 09-16-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

Pssst - when you don't pay workers enough to be consumers the whole economic system comes crashing down.
You want teachers and nurses and construction workers and civil servants earning enough to buy things.

The role of unions is one of establishing safety and fair wage levels. Most are corrupt.
That means you need to regulate unions better, not abolish unions.
Much the same way that we need to regulate oil companies better after the BP spill, not abolish oil companies.

Knee jerk solutions won't fix anything.

This is one of the smartest men in the room. I salute you Sir !

TheSquealer · 09-16-2012, 05:08 PM

Yeah, teachers don't make enough to buy cars, Tv's and iPods. Clearly a bunch of homeless people living on the edge with their high 5 figure salaries.

Minte · 09-16-2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Yes of course you have to have incentive. You honestly think teachers are not over paid??? Lol. I'm gonna guess either you or someone in your family are teachers. Look at the education of kids these days its a fucking disgrace. "Teachers" are paid close to 6 figures a year and most are absolulty hopeless and bitch and complain. Here in ontario the government just made it illegal for teachers to strike and what are they doing in protest??? Cancelling all sports, after hours activities etc. They say its about the "kids" lmao. Its about them and how they can get more money. Teachers are not most educated people. They have guides on how to run courses and curriculum . They should be happy with what they make and shut the fuck up, like most public unions that are paid by us the tax payers.

You had a much different opinion when our Govenor Walker broke the teachers union here in Wis. If I recall, you found his actions borderline nazi. What happened? Did some teacher piss in your wheaties..

Rochard · 09-16-2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Empires end most often with a shift in values, causing economic decline. Namely, that people are united behind growth and success (be it through conquest or other means) and once they are fat and happy, once the hunger and thirst for more is quenched and there is nothing left to fight for, their values change.

Patriotic or not, you have to admit that all empires die. The USA no longer has an identity. It's not the place to go live the "American Dream" that it once was. There are no values that unite people. There is no collective hunger for success. There is just a bunch of ADD assholes tweeting about their cats bowel movements, bitching about the 1% as they blame McDonalds for making them fat.

The middle class is in decline (and the nation) because values are in decline. That's just my opinion.

LOL. Don't kid yourself. The American Dream is alive and well, and people still cross our borders daily trying to get in.

Rochard · 09-16-2012, 05:28 PM

I was thinking about this thread this morning when I was out running. The median income here in town is $40k a year, yet every house seems to have a BMW or a Mercedes in the drive way.

Robbie · 09-16-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

I was thinking about this thread this morning when I was out running. The median income here in town is $40k a year, yet every house seems to have a BMW or a Mercedes in the drive way.

Isn't a "median" income the same as an average income? In that case they would be taking everyone's income and dividing it by the working population.

So all the people who actually make good money would be counted in with the minions that work at McDonalds or Walmart, etc.
So that would bring the average income down nice and low wouldn't it?

kane · 09-16-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Yes of course you have to have incentive. You honestly think teachers are not over paid??? Lol. I'm gonna guess either you or someone in your family are teachers. Look at the education of kids these days its a fucking disgrace. "Teachers" are paid close to 6 figures a year and most are absolulty hopeless and bitch and complain. Here in ontario the government just made it illegal for teachers to strike and what are they doing in protest??? Cancelling all sports, after hours activities etc. They say its about the "kids" lmao. Its about them and how they can get more money. Teachers are not most educated people. They have guides on how to run courses and curriculum . They should be happy with what they make and shut the fuck up, like most public unions that are paid by us the tax payers.

1. No. I don't think teachers, for the most part, are overpaid. Be 100% honest here, what jobs in our society are more important that teachers? A person could argue doctors and health care workers, maybe police and fire and then what? Educating our kids is extremely important to the future of this country.

2. Teacher do not make "close to 6 figures a year." Here and here are two good sites that show the average wage of teachers. The first shows that the average wage across the US for teachers is $40-$43K per year. The second show the average per state. There are a few states that get up in the high 60's or low 70's, but most are in the 40's.

3. This is not to say that the system is not fucked up. Yes, there are bad teachers. Yes there are lazy teachers. Yes, there needs to be better ways of getting rid of those people and getting quality people in their places. Also, they need to revise the ways teachers are allowed to teach. Most teachers pretty much have their hands tied. Because of standardized testing they have certain things they need to pound into the kids heads so that they score well on the tests. Those tests leave them very little room to actually teach beyond that.

Socks · 09-16-2012, 08:01 PM

Every day as English speaking Internet users we get to witness the average quality of students that the USA (and thus its teachers) is producing.

In fact, it makes up a large part of what we find so fucking hilarious here every day. Morons everywhere.

People have the most opportunity to gain knowledge than at any other time in the history of mankind. There has simply never been an easier time to be an educated person. Young people have the most time, opportunity, availability, and resources than ever before. These kids likely don't have to take care of their elders or siblings, care for the family farm or business, or even defend themselves or their property. They are almost completely free to learn as much as they want to.

So I have to ask the teachers of America: Why can't many of your students read well, write well, or even spell? More importantly, why in all your years of teaching have you not been able to convince your captive subjects that gaining knowledge is honourable, virtuous and valuable?

Also I don't think there's a system with more finger pointing than the education system. It's just never anybody's fault. Clearly they don't have the right processes in place for handling dumbasses.

I was a dumbass in school, there's no way they should have let me disrupt the classes like I did. I went to school on acid, mushrooms, drunk.. I missed 30+ classes per class per semester and there were never any consequences. The other kids got put on contract, but I was in the gifted program so it was because I was "bored" or "not challenged". Those are the excuses THEY MADE FOR ME!

I didn't even have to dream that shit up, it was offered up on a plate.

They are awfully good at making excuses now that I think about it. I always just believed in educating myself, and didn't want to jump through hoops and memorize nonsense. Plus I knew I wasn't going to university or college, so their grades were of little value. I never even took a single computer or business course, and that's all I've ever been into. I literally started 3 businesses while in highschool, all computer related.

Was I stupid for not taking the classes, or were they stupid for not offering something of substance?

Socks · 09-16-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Isn't a "median" income the same as an average income? In that case they would be taking everyone's income and dividing it by the working population.

So all the people who actually make good money would be counted in with the minions that work at McDonalds or Walmart, etc.
So that would bring the average income down nice and low wouldn't it?

Robbie did you miss that guy open-shoving with your-wife-is-a-whore on the first page? That shit shouldn't fly here. She's not even here to defend herself.

PornoMonster · 09-16-2012, 08:51 PM

Isn't the Upper class shrinking also??? The amount of people in it??

09-15-2012, 03:17 PM	#60
TheSquealer BANNED Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In Your Head Posts: 25,120	Of course, when the economy slows, even more unemployable dipshits are unemployed. People who aren't dipshits tend to be ok. People who are bright and hard workers have a tendency to land on their feet very quickly. Great employees are the last to go. Barely productive Idiots who spend their days complaining, blaming anything and everything for their low station in life, tend to get let go first and stay unemployed longer. We have a whole new generation of lazy assholes who understand nothing but instant gratification and who posess an unreal sense of entitlement that are just like people in this biz who bitch non stop about tubes - as if it's not their fault the world is leaving them behind. Even sadder is that a person can get elected for president by saying absolutely nothing but "hope" and "change" and everyone is stunned that he didn't change the world, turn the economy on a dime and make their house payments for them. This thread is not about rich vs poor. This thread is about the end of an empire. The end of a dream. The end of work ethic. The end of sacrifice and dedication. This thread is about a nation founded by people who were hungry for success and worshipped success - where those hungry people were slowly displaced by morbidly obese idiots, esting themselves to desth and who have turned to blsming others rather than striving for and worshipping success. But hey... Support Obama, blame Reagan, blame Obama, Blame Bush, support Bush, blame Obama etc... The USA will still be a nation in deckihe full of worthless idiots with a growing sense of entitlement and waning work ethic. Last edited by TheSquealer; 09-15-2012 at 03:19 PM..

09-15-2012, 03:18 PM	#61
2012 So Fucking What Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 17,189	we're not in a depression because we can just print more money. yes, oh yes please yes more please thank you Jesus __________________ best host: Webair \| best sponsor: Kink \| best coder: 688218966 \| Go Fuck Yourself

09-16-2012, 01:09 PM	#74
Bryan G Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,338	Oh right because teachers SAY they work that amount of hours. So it must be true! Point still stands. They make 80k plus a year , get 10 if not more weeks holidays and retire with a pension most would dream of. I can maybe name one teacher that had an influence on my life, most we worthless wanks. Those who can do! Those who can't, teach! Any idiot can be a teacher. What's the difference between a teacher and a baby sitter? Oh that's right the over paid salary paid by tax payers. __________________ Bryan skype: bryan.glass3 \| ICQ 302999591

09-16-2012, 03:53 PM	#90
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	Pssst - when you don't pay workers enough to be consumers the whole economic system comes crashing down. You want teachers and nurses and construction workers and civil servants earning enough to buy things. The role of unions is one of establishing safety and fair wage levels. Most are corrupt. That means you need to regulate unions better, not abolish unions. Much the same way that we need to regulate oil companies better after the BP spill, not abolish oil companies. Knee jerk solutions won't fix anything. __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

09-16-2012, 05:08 PM	#92
TheSquealer BANNED Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In Your Head Posts: 25,120	Yeah, teachers don't make enough to buy cars, Tv's and iPods. Clearly a bunch of homeless people living on the edge with their high 5 figure salaries. Last edited by TheSquealer; 09-16-2012 at 05:11 PM..

09-15-2012, 05:26 AM	#51
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	The middle class did not shrink... That's a misnomer. That would imply some people went from middle to wealthy and others went from middle to poor. What actually happened is the number of poor people grew quite a bit, and the people already wealthy became more wealthy. Growth of poverty is not a shrinking middle class... It's many new poor people and almost zero new wealthy ones...

09-15-2012, 06:13 AM	#54
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	Here's a little math problem for striking teachers ..... There is a profession that relies heavily on property taxes to fund it's overhead. The real estate market is terrible and property values both residential and commercial is falling. So is revenue, where will money for increased budgets come from? (I have commercial property that currently pays 9.5% of GROSS rental income in property taxes) .

09-16-2012, 01:51 PM	#77
davethedope Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 532	All this anti-teacher sentiment- am I right to assume public education should be abolished? Only those who can afford private schools should be taught?

09-16-2012, 02:40 PM	#86
mineistaken See signature :) Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ICQ 363 097 773 Posts: 29,656	What about immigrants who flood in and work for minimum wage? That should account to middle class shrinking as well. Meaning that it actually does not shrink, just immigrant numbers are growing hence percentage of middle class people is going down. Not saying it is the case, saying that it is part of the case.

09-16-2012, 03:41 PM	#89
davethedope Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 532	How much should they be paid? Garbage men making what, $48 dollars an hour? is a problem. But you see this teacher problem- try taking that money away from them. What do you think's going to happen?

09-16-2012, 05:28 PM	#95
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 73,336	I was thinking about this thread this morning when I was out running. The median income here in town is $40k a year, yet every house seems to have a BMW or a Mercedes in the drive way. __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

09-16-2012, 08:01 PM	#98
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	Every day as English speaking Internet users we get to witness the average quality of students that the USA (and thus its teachers) is producing. In fact, it makes up a large part of what we find so fucking hilarious here every day. Morons everywhere. People have the most opportunity to gain knowledge than at any other time in the history of mankind. There has simply never been an easier time to be an educated person. Young people have the most time, opportunity, availability, and resources than ever before. These kids likely don't have to take care of their elders or siblings, care for the family farm or business, or even defend themselves or their property. They are almost completely free to learn as much as they want to. So I have to ask the teachers of America: Why can't many of your students read well, write well, or even spell? More importantly, why in all your years of teaching have you not been able to convince your captive subjects that gaining knowledge is honourable, virtuous and valuable? Also I don't think there's a system with more finger pointing than the education system. It's just never anybody's fault. Clearly they don't have the right processes in place for handling dumbasses. I was a dumbass in school, there's no way they should have let me disrupt the classes like I did. I went to school on acid, mushrooms, drunk.. I missed 30+ classes per class per semester and there were never any consequences. The other kids got put on contract, but I was in the gifted program so it was because I was "bored" or "not challenged". Those are the excuses THEY MADE FOR ME! I didn't even have to dream that shit up, it was offered up on a plate. They are awfully good at making excuses now that I think about it. I always just believed in educating myself, and didn't want to jump through hoops and memorize nonsense. Plus I knew I wasn't going to university or college, so their grades were of little value. I never even took a single computer or business course, and that's all I've ever been into. I literally started 3 businesses while in highschool, all computer related. Was I stupid for not taking the classes, or were they stupid for not offering something of substance?

09-16-2012, 08:51 PM	#100
PornoMonster Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,257	Isn't the Upper class shrinking also??? The amount of people in it?? __________________ $6 a Month 4 Blade Razors, 4 Cartridges, Includes shipping! Domains 4 Sale CashForVideos.com - Pussy.biz - FootPorn.com - SoloMovie.com - CollegeGirlCams.com - AmateurCamGirls.com - PR3 4 Letter Domain