nation-x

First of all... you provide an opinion piece as proof... typical for conservatives. Secondly, if you didn't notice, all of those numbers are from a 3 year old report. We were talking about income tax... not excise tax. This is a perfect example of how conservatives try to muddy the water... if you want to include all taxes, there are alot of taxes that hit lower income people much harder than the wealthy purely because it's a much larger percentage of their income. Gas tax, sales tax, etc.

Here is the title of the report from the CBO that he is reporting from:

"Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979 to 2006"

Now... look at the report... specifically the line where it says "Individual Income Taxes".

Top 10%: 16.0
Top 5%: 17.5
Top 1%: 19.0

Which part of that did you miss. The average of those 3 is 17.5%. If you want to quibble over .5% we can.

LuckyMax

12Click, stop crying... you are not tax that much compare to the rest of the world...
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-...e-world-2011-4

And if you are so wealthy as you brag about, it shouldn't change anything to you isn't it?

12clicks

uh, I know you seem that being in the top 1% is like making a billion cajillion dollars but that's why you basically have no understanding of the tax structure.

And the difference between you (and the rest of the rabble) and I is that I applaud those who make more than I do. You envy them and despise their abilities.
look how you envy me.

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TheDoc

Interesting... I'll have to dig into that for a bit.

I put food in that category as well, the more money I've made the less I noticed what I spent on food - until we went into health mode. But when I was younger, right after the military, having $20 left over after bills sure made food one expensive little bastard to deal with - that was before gas too.

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12clicks

no, sorry, dopey. the opinion piece sited the CBO's numbers.
If you were interested in understanding what you're arguing about, you'd have read it. But you're not. you're interested in having the government take a pound of flesh from the successful that your envy wants but your abilities can't take on your own.

your numbers are vastly outdated. They're from 2006. Mine are from 2 days ago.

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12clicks

oh, and again we have another liberal who either doesn't understand, or pretends not to understand what "effective tax rate" means.

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nation-x

Way to spin... I would be willing to bet I actually pay a larger percentage of my income in taxes than you do... so you can continue with that bullshit ignorant insult game you always play when you are proven wrong if you want... but these number are from the CBO report that the report you linked to is quoting. So... those ARE your numbers... Richie Rich.

TheDoc

So sad.... Let me educate you more. The top 1% breaks down even more... that 1.1 million people goes so far up in scale. It's funny to watch you pretend to be one of them.

The top .1% - that's 100% no you and never will be - pay more taxes than 10x of your lives, so stop pretending like your shit don't stink buddy, you're a bottom sucker like the rest of us compared to the truly wealthy.

I don't go around pretending I make enough to pay myself 15 million a year... at that, I'm not an idiot, I don't need $350k a year to live on, any smart person would re-invest that money into lower tax burden incomes rather than being a fool and paying full personal tax rates on it.... is that you 12clicks?

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12clicks

lets have more fun at the expense of the dumb

which part of the following sentence excluded gas tax sales tax etc.:

"""When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive."""

oh, but you don't want to include excise tax because it works against your lie.
typical liberal nonsense.
"we need to count gas and sales tax because it helps my argument but no way to we count a tax that works against my argument"


intelligent people understand the meaning of "all" and "effective"

liberals seem to have trouble with those words.

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12clicks

listen, we're all very proud of your $30k a year. I'm sure its the best you can do and I applaud people who do their best.
However, again, the greatest difference between you and I is that I applaud those in the top .1% and I don't believe they should pay a dime more in tax then they do.
You, who aren't in the top 1% scream that your betters should pay more.
when you're successful, you have no time for envy. when you're not, for some people, its all consuming.

oh, and its a good thing you don't need $350k to live on because I guess that means you couldn't live.
making the pittance you do and all.

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nation-x

Look... I have no idea why you can't understand something as simple as this. You provided a link to an opinion piece that quoted that CBO report... it is linked from the article.



You posted that article in response to me saying that people making above $250k/year pay an average of 17% in income taxes... go back and look. I showed you from your own article and the report it quoted that I was correct... the top 10% pay an average of 17.5% in individual income tax.... end if story.

You want to include Corporate Tax and Excise Tax... which has nothing to do with individual income taxes and the rate that will increase when the Bush Tax cuts expire.

12clicks

well we're all very impressed by what you're willing to bet on a chatboard. the facts however remain.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...d0iK_blog.html

When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive. Everyone pays some tax, even those who pay no federal income taxes, and the wealthiest pay a larger percentage share of taxes. Here?s the effective tax rate for all of the groups, according to the CBO:
Lowest quintile (23.4 million taxpayers), zero to $18,900: 4.3 percent
Second lowest quintile (22.4 million), $18,900-$32,100: 10.2 percent
Middle quintile (22.9 million), $32,100-$47,400: 14.2 percent
Fourth quintile (23 million), $47,400-$71,200: 17.6 percent
Highest quintile (23.6 million), above $71,200: 25.8 percent
Top 10 percent (12 million), minimum income of $98,100: 27.5 percent
Top 5 percent (5.9 million), minimum income of $134,400: 29 percent
Top 1 percent (1.1 million), minimum income of $332,300: 31.2 percent

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12clicks

uh, again. you seem to misunderstand the term "all" as it relates to taxes. and "effective tax rate" as it relates to what is actually paid.

now because you want to imagine you're rantings are right, you want to just take the small sample of tax that proves your point. however, in the real world, each of us is responsible to pay ALL the tax we owe. not just the part that makes you look right.

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nation-x

No one is disputing that the wealthy pay a larger percent of total tax revenue that the government receives. They also earn more money than the entire lowest 50% of earners. I will quote Obama... "it's math". I happen to be good at math. It would seem that you would be as well so you can add up all of your cheese... but you are trying to create an equation that doesn't reflect reality.

nation-x

Last time I checked, Ron... Corporations are their own entity... so how exactly do you get to add individual tax rates with corporate tax rates to come up with effective tax rates?

12clicks

lets play even further.
from the chart, your bracket pays 3% (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're in the 3rd quintile.
so how ever you want to cut it, your betters are paying percentage wise, about 6x more than you. any way you slice it, you don't pay nearly as much percentage wise or actual dollars than the top 1%, 5% or 10%

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12clicks

because as the owner of my corporation, I write a check out of the bank account I own and pay the government the tax my corporation owes. as the owner of the corp, the money, and the liability, I pay the tax.

If my corp doesn't pay the tax, who goes to jail, me or my corp?

get it?

yet another silly argument shot down.

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nation-x

I wish I paid 3%... that would be nice.

I pay self employment tax right off the top with no deductions (because I can't afford to pay $1250/month for major medical coverage after taxes) @ 15.3% before we even get to income. Granted, I get to write 50% of that off of my income tax. I paid 27.8% effective rate in 2010 including self employment tax in federal taxes. This will change because I started an S Corp but I will still pay a lot.

Failed

We're an individualistic society; I support the appropriate measure that benefits me. If I'm in the bottom percentile, I will support taxing the living hell out of the rich. If I'm in the top percentile, I will support tax breaks for me, and tax increases for the poor.

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12clicks

I wish I paid 17%. isn't that neat!

we can all wish but the fact remains that the CBO says when adding all taxes together, the effective rate that the top 1% pays is much higher than the middle class pays, regardless of the lies obama trots out.

but look how he's succeeded in making you think otherwise.

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12clicks

thats never been the american way. however, your username is quite apropos considering your post.

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Failed

What America have you been living in? It's always been the American way to think of yourself first and everyone else second.

And yes, how clever to use my handle in an insult, you're the very first one to do it, really...

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Bladewire

WOW! No matter her political affiliation this woman has it right and expresses herself without myopic indignation towards anyone, just the facts. She rocks!

This would be a great beginning to a new contract with America. A new commitment to balance in our country.

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Dvae

What it shows is she has no idea what it takes to start a business, has never owned one or she would not be saying what she's saying.

She has spent her entire life in the university system or some government job doing who knows what which in both cases the capitalism that she puts down has allowed her to live a pretty comfortable lifestyle including retirement and benefits.

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Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

Failed

She's saying after your business becomes a wild success and starts to reap in massive profits, that you should take a piece of those profits and pay it forward. Where does she say that there is no risk in a business start up? Or that you must give a chunk of your business away if it's not profitable? Or that you must give away profits within the first 10 years?

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nation-x

The difference is that he was referring to Capital Gains tax (which oddly enough wasn't included in that CBO estimate) vs. Individual Income Tax rates... and I am quite certain that when he was referring to middle class he was referring to people like me who earn between $84k and $250k.

The last time I paid anywhere near 3% was when I was working as a Restaurant Manager in the 90s and had kids that I could claim EIC for. I do claim one... I have a 5 year old... but it certainly doesn't reduce my liability much...

I don't own property because I am still improving my credit score from going through 2 divorces and being broke for years... so no mortgage interest deduction. I don't have alot of expenses that I can write off because my office is in my bedroom and I don't really have an area in my house that I can dedicate to an office. I don't really drive anywhere for business meetings... so not much there either and my hosting costs are nominal.

I am working on a new project that will probably change all of that... but this is my current reality.

If it were taxes alone... I might be able to support a Republican... but I have learned over the years that they talk out of the side of their necks... meaning that they say what you want to hear but do something entirely different. They are the primary driver of our current debt and the facts prove that no matter what they may say... and a perfect example of the "side of their neck" comment.

I don't support everything that Democrats want and I certainly don't see myself as a Progressive... in fact I think Progressives are the opposite crazy of Tea Party crazy. Two sides of the same coin. However, Obama hasn't done anything that he didn't say he would do from the beginning of his campaign that I care about.

Republicans don't do anything... nothing... zero... to help small business owners like me. They only help out huge corporations that they call "small businesses". They FUCK small business owners like me right in the buttcrack.

Minte

C Corps are their own entity. The better plan these days is to incorporate as an S Corp or an LLC. At the end of the year the owner(s) pay their taxes from a K1.

My businesses are structured as the main entity as a C Corp. It has a large amount of assets that can be depreciated at various rates. The entity that owns the buildings is an LLC. Not many deductions available. And the tire company is also an LLC. Basically since I acquired the tire company it's been converted to a sales and marketing organization that purchases the tires from the C corp.

Having multiple corporate entities is the way to go.

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You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

12clicks

I'm living in the non-ghetto part of america.
I'm sure where you live things are different.

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Dvae

I think most do, have you ever heard of charity?

And giving money to charity instead of the government which wastes something like 80 cents on the dollar to get it to those they are supposed to be helping. Most charities are a hell of a lot more efficient than that.

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Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

12clicks

balance?
I missed the part where she asked 50% of us now paying nothing in income taxes to at least contribute a token amount.

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Bladewire

Her quote doesn't put down capitalism in any way. I'm a business owner, and many like me understand the balance between community, your workers, success and supporting that system to continue your success. Those with short sighted business objectives don't sustain a long lasting profitable business.

Kind of like me never fucking over my members, surfers, or past members, for unrealistic payouts and always delivering more then I promise. Think in the long term and big picture. Trying to fuck over the system that fostered, and sustains, your success is not wise

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12clicks

again, you seem to not understand the words "effective" and "all"

please explain how republicans have fucked small business owners like you.

while we're at it, please explain how democrats have helped small businesses like you.

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Failed

I don't disagree with you there. It would be nice to see after certain x percentage of net profits the remaining profits must go to pay for peoples college education, medical benefits, etc.

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Failed

I'm living in a non-ghetto part of America myself. But, it says a lot about you as a person to believe anyone who disagrees with you, or is intelligent enough to recognize that America is indeed an individualistic society (taught in sociology 101), must be from the ghetto.

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Bladewire

57% of American businesses pay no income tax. The point your trying to prove it moot.

Her ethics are clear and encourage the balance of give and take on all sides.

Why would you argue against balance?

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Bladewire

Businesses only make up 20% of total contributions to charity. 80% is done by the individual.

Really? Post links to those stats please.

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TheDoc

Even if I only made $30k a year, it's equally as beneficial and important as those in the top .1%. Without those $30k a year people to buy the shit of the top .1%, the top .1% wouldn't have shit for money.....

Ahhhh, so I think paying up in scale is fair and you don't think it's fair, that some how I don't applaud those that do well? That's probably the stupidest mentality I've ever heard from you.

How about this... I see it as what it is, the more money you make, the more you used the systems around you and the people - even those that never worked for you, to help build your wealth. So pretending like you owe nothing to anyone but yourself, just makes you a jackass that doesn't deserve anything you have.

That doesn't mean I don't applaud those that do well.. however I'm not going continue to applaud them once they start to fuck everyone else over, once the ego kicks in and they think it's all, me, me, me... because it NEVER was just them.

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The Porn Nerd

Things are NOT better now. Why?

1. Because the rich run everything and think of people who mkae less money than them as slaves, here to do their bidding.

2. The Baby Boomers are running things. No grown-ups, an entire generation of selfish assholes who think they know better than anyone else while they fuck everything up. Where's the Greatest Generation to fix all this crap their kids left?

I hate every damn one of them.

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TheDoc

Stop paying yourself so much and invest that money into dividend investments and you'll be paying below that very quick like. If you actually did it right, you could take almost no real personal income, still collect that much if not more, and pay half of what you do now.

That's what I love about you... you're this mighty killer business 1% dude that knows it all but yet can't figure out how this game actually works so you aren't taxed for shit anymore.

Thing is, if you REALLY made that much, even a low level CPA would be on your ass to lesson your tax burden, and you would know this stuff inside and out.

I'm just some lowly $30k a year nobody and even my CPA is on my ass for this.

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tony286

Actually not true:
Elizabeth Warren was born Elizabeth Herring in Oklahoma City, the daughter of middle class parents Pauline and Donald Herring.[7] When Warren was twelve, her father had a heart attack which led to a pay cut, excessive medical bills, and eventually the loss of their car. Her mother went to work answering phones at Sears and Warren worked as a waitress.[8] She graduated from Northwest Classen High School in 1966 on a full debate scholarship and attended George Washington University, where she debated for them. At that time most scholarships were athletic scholarships for boys, and there were few girls on the debate teams as well. At 19 she married Jim Warren; they divorced in 1979.[9] She graduated in 1970 with a degree in speech pathology and audiology and worked with children who had head trauma and other kinds of brain injuries. [10] Warren went on to study law at the Rutgers School of Law?Newark, where she served as an editor of the Rutgers Law Review, and was one of two female summer associates at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft's Wall Street office.[11] She received her Juris Doctor in 1976. After law school, Warren worked from home, writing wills and doing real estate closings for walk-in clients.[9]
Warren is married to Bruce Mann, a legal historian and law professor also at Harvard Law School. She has a daughter, Amelia Warren Tyagi, with whom she has coauthored two books and several articles, and a son, Alexander Warren. She has taught Sunday School and cites Methodist founder John Wesley as an inspiration.[3]

12clicks

if your 57% number is true, which I doubt, the owners of those businesses pay an effective tax rate of 31% while you pay ZERO.
is that balance where you're from? here in the real world, it isn't.

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Dvae

You missed the part about she having started a business. Oh I see it, she worked from home, writing wills and doing real estate closings for walk-in clients.

Did she have employees?
And it must have been a smashing success if she moved on to universities and government.

And the rest is pretty much as I said universities or government.

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Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

12clicks

I love how the bottom wage earners trot out the imaginary tax breaks and good CPA nonsense when talking to their betters.

yes son, we all got the top 1% because you know more than us and our collective CPA firms.

you're an endless source of entertainment.

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Dvae

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0597f.asp
Juan Williams

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Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

TheDoc

Hahahahahahahaha... imaginary. Why don't you go look at what the tax rate is on dividend earnings and capital gains tax on investments, I mean come on... this isn't rocket science here, and that's the bottom of the barrel of possibilities.

This is funny - you're suck a fake, if not you really a complete idiot. You probably put all the money directly into your personal bank account too. Hahahahaha... No wait, you're one of those safe guys aren't you? Earning interest in your local vault so you don't get taxed, twice or some lame excuse... haha.

You deserve to be taxed at an effective tax rate of 31% if this is how your handle money, if you're that stupid, you deserve to be taxed more.

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VikingMan

There is not sense of community left so her statement is moot. What she is talking about works in a place like Japan but not in a place where there is so much racial strife and division. Everyone for themselves because they "have to get mine".

12clicks

no, sorry. lemmings are easily replaced by the very next guy in line. People who create multi-million dollar businesses and hire employees, are way more important. Without them, the lemmings would just run in circles waiting to be lead.

as I've already sited the CBO numbers showing you that its already this way, you have no point. Your incessant ramblings about what your betters should pay shows envy, not applause.

again, dear lemming, no one is calling for your betters to pay nothing. We're just pointing out that we already pay enough. You on the other hand, want to lie and say you somehow pay your fair share when that share probably wouldn't pay for a good bottle of wine.

ahhhh, the imaginary "fuck every over" because you've failed where your betters have succeeded.
son, I know its tough for you to watch people pass you by but its just life. We all rise to the heights our intelligence and abilities allow us to. The key is to not fault others for what are merely your own limitations.
success isn't for everyone.

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12clicks

here, lemming. let me dumb it down for you.
I have EARNED income. that puts me in the top 1% No matter how much I invest, my investment earnings will not overtake the earned income.

I understand that when imagining what your betters are doing, its easy to imagine incorrectly but then, I'm not the one fleeing to canada for that country's handouts.

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Bladewire

I don't post without data to backup my claims. 57% of American businesses pay no taxes.

Post links to substantiate your "effective take rate of 31% for American businesses"

2010 U.S. Government Revenues
For the fiscal year 2010, the U.S. government collected $2.2 trillion: 40% of revenues came from social insurances taxes, 43% from individual taxes, 7% in corporate and other taxes, and a tiny 3% in excise taxes.

7% of federal tax revenues is generated from corporate and other taxes.

Also ... " in 2009 GE, Bank of America, Citigroup and Valero did not pay any taxes on income." and " 83 of the largest 100 U.S. companies have overseas tax havens. In 2007, Citigroup had 427 subsidiaries in foreign tax havens, Morgan Stanley had 273, New Corps had 152, Bank of America had 115, and Procter & Gamble 83." and "..there is one single address in the Cayman Islands that is home to 19,000 corporations as their home address.."

I pay thousands of dollars in taxes and you assuming I pay $0 shows an unbridled bias against anyone who challenges your viewpoint, which is not based on facts, as I've demonstrated.

I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. It's ironic having this back and forth with you

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