LiveDose

fiddy...

I just had to, sorry...

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JeremySF

"READ THE FUCKING NEWS OUTSIDE OF THE USA!!!!"???????

Yes, I do read the news outside the USA, and have to say that your contentions are false. First let me clarify my position: I'm not a total hawk, but I do think disarming Saddam Hussein without force will be very difficult. My position probably is probably reflective of most Americans, the 67% of Americans who support the use of force if it is done in concert with our allies. Only 26% support force unilaterally.

But, to say that everyone is against the U.S. is outright false. Yes, France and Germany are squarely against the U.S. But, have you heard of Tony Blair? Moreover, did you read the news yesterday in which 8 European countries including Spain, Italy, Denmark, Portugal, Czech, Hungary, Poland and of course the UK, issued a public statement calling for Europe to stand behind the U.S. Read more about it in the non-American newspaper, The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...886125,00.html).

Let me also summarize for you Saddam's kindness. Here's what good ol' Saddam has been up to over the years:

- It?s become standard practice for Saddam Hussein to arrest women and children and even rape and murder a husband/father?s daughter and/or wife in front of them to intimidate them into cooperating.
- Overseeing the murdering of more than 1000 Kuwaitis after his invasion of Kuwait, as well as holding foreign diplomats as hostages, stealing from Kuwaiti citizenry, raining down missiles upon Israeli civilians and seeing through war crimes against American militia.
- A campaign in the 1990s to ethnically cleanse thousands of Iraqi Shiites.
- The Faylee Kurds, mainly men ages 16-28, were tortured in Hussein?s detention camps while their families were sent away to Iran.
- Daily executions, secretly carried out, at the whim of Hussein. "In Iraq, not a day passes without us hearing that someone from a family we know has been executed," one refugee is quoted as saying.
- Hetau Ibrahim Ahmad, prominent Kurdish spokesperson, tells of her having to flee her entire lifetime, in fact becoming a daily refugee. She sets forth detail of killings, oppression and displacement of Kurds by Hussein terrorists.
- Dr. Katrine Michael, 1988 victim of chemical weaponry, had to flee to Turkey because of the ongoing chemical bombardment of Kurds by Hussein.
- Nidhal Mhuk Shalal Aljuburi, Sabria Mahdi Naama and Peyman Halmat relate women?s public beheadings (while family members were forced to watch), women being dragged through village streets, rapes by Hussein?s security forces, kidnapping and mass killings, and displacements.
- Nidhal Muhi Shalal Aljuburi told of the practical extinction of her Jibour tribe, such including relatives, by Hussein. She related Hussein?s purposeful polluting of southern Iraq marsh areas, such yielding the dying out of animal life.
- More ethnic obliteration of the non-Arab population of Kirkuk, blatantly murdering thousands of Hussein?s political opponents.
- Amassing weapons of mass destruction and instigating global terrorism.
- Committing enough crimes so as to fill millions of pages of documentation on the part of the Clinton administration?s investigative teams who culled data for bringing Hussein and his henchmen to international justice.
- Brainwashing of children, beginning at age five. They are enrolled in "Ashbal Saddam" ("Saddam?s Cubs") where they must undergo military training, the latter including cruelty to animals. "From the age of nine, children are put through ?proper? military training. A firearm is a physical part of the child's body," a mother was quoted as saying.
- Children are at times arrested, put in prison because a parent opposes Hussein, or merely because a soldier decides it is necessary. One mother told that her children, ages eleven and thirteen, were put behind bars for six months?all because her husband, prior to his being executed, refused to preach in favor of the Hussein war against Iran. Finally, to see her offspring set free, she had to pay the government.
- One million of internally displaced persons in Iraq is due to "forced population removal, known as Arabization. Under this program, farmland is confiscated, citizens are harassed, imprisoned, tortured, and not permitted to inherit or purchase business or real estate. "The terror in Iraq is ubiquitous," the report says. "Every Iraqi, man, woman and child is a potential enemy -- of the party, of the regime, of the leader Saddam Hussein -- and must be dealt with accordingly."

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Undutchable

To the one that mentioned Saddam's horrendous killing of kids and women: Over 500.000 babies died due to sanctions and Madeleine Albright called it "a price worth paying" on national TV. It's easy to point fingers but let's not forget to look at ourselves: our own histories are filled with cruelties and hositility to other nations. My country, the Netherlands, was founded by looting, robbing and enslaving people. America's founding meant the end of it's previous inhabitants. And even in recent histories there have been a lot of cruelties and unjustful killing by western hands.

But, even if we completely disregard this, it would still be wise to analyse the effects of a war on Iraq. How much further can we provoke the Muslim/Arab nation (which is over 1 billion people) before we tumble into a world war 3? This threat is very real at the moment. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The worst possible move in the fight against terror would be to invade another Muslim/Arab country. You will play right into the hands of extremists and it will rise even further. Al-Qaeda has already proven that it is almost impossible to track down, let alone dismantle. With political courses that stimulate the rise of extremism, you will create the ideal circumstances. Osama Bin Laden's goal is to provoke a war between the entire Muslim population and the west, because he is convinced that if the Muslim world unites, they will win. It's hard to say anything about their actual chances, but hey, let's not find out and give Osama what he's been after so far.

jhen

Go run and hide then you panzy.....sing a John Lennon song and maybe they will just stop

Read this bullshit from above....

You will play right into the hands of extremists and it will rise even further. Al-Qaeda has already proven that it is almost impossible to track down, let alone dismantle. With political courses that stimulate the rise of extremism, you will create the ideal circumstances. Osama Bin Laden's goal is to provoke a war between the entire Muslim population and the west, because he is convinced that if the Muslim world unites, they will win. It's hard to say anything about their actual chances, but hey, let's not find out and give Osama what he's been after so far.


What a complete puss!!

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jhen

How would you like One Wilshire behind your business

Undutchable

When terrorism hits home on a daily basis, we'll talk again ;) You have no idea what kind of enemy you are facing

Fucking moron

Undutchable

Let me elaborate just a bit more: the enemy looks very weak, but in fact he's weak because it's leaders do not represent them. Muslims in general are already much more fanatical than their leaders. Their leaders use hard repression to stay in power, but as fanatasism surgers, they will fall and the power will be to the extremists. Now picture this: A nation of 1 billion motivated people ready for war and willing to die for it. On the other side of the battle is a high-tech society that for most part is scared shitless of death.

Their weaknesses: a technology setback, one which might not last long once they gain power over governments such as Pakistan who have tons of weapons including nukes. This threat is not fictional, it's very real.

Our weaknesses:

- Open societies: It's very easy for terrorist to penetrate our societies and to do damage because we've structured them that way
- High reliance on technology: Will we be able to stand up to guerilla tectics when our hi-tech infratructure is down?
- Fear: Our biggest weakness. 9/11 had 3000 victims - true, a lot, but it could've been worse and other countries have had to deal with much bigger losses. We're a people that love life and hang on to it more than anything. The fact that we've traded in a lot of our freedoms just for the "feeling" of security is a very good indicator. How will we combat a people that *wants* to die for their cause?

Once an international war is declared, you will open "Pandora's box" as some people have described it. I *sincerely* hope that you guys are right and I'm wrong, but if the US keeps following this course, then don't bet on it

vegasdude

its up to each own 2 make a deciesion...

now if I had taken my familys advice and listened to other peoples opinions I would be an office rat today....

I support Bush but I don't hate people who does not have the same opinion... but i'll let people find out by themselves where they stand... I dont need any france german or palestian advice!

Vegas

jimmyf

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ab1183

Undutchable, what do you suppose we do about it then? We surely cant just let these people do whatever they want. And BTW, the "sanctions" you speak of were put in place by the UN not the US.

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Undutchable

I know they were UN sanctions, but aren't we, the West, the UN? Most of the countries in the Security Council are Western countries and I think we have to accept the responsibility for so many deaths. And in the end, what has it resulted in? Nothing. Saddam still got his food while his population starved and turned anti-Western. Bad politics if you ask me, and certainly not "a price worth paying". Let's see if 500.000 deaths of our own new born would be a price worth paying as well..

Personally, I'm also against Saddam. His tiranny is obvious and he needs to be taken care of, no doubt about it. Personally I think it would be best to get the Arab League, led by Amr Mousa, the most powerful leader in the Arab world at this time, involved in dismantling Saddam. Show the world that America and the West are not actively seeking out aggression against Muslims and show moderation and support for those that are moderate and seek alliance with us.

So far, under Bush it has been Afghanistan, Iraq, and now he's even speaking of Iran. If this action would be taken unilaterally, do you really think people will stand by? The provocative stance needs to go... or we'll face the consequences and loose the war against terror

BigFish

On one hand anti-war, propaganda groupies talk about how U.S. is acting unilaterally 'against the U.N. body' and against the U.N. will in going to war with IRAQ. On the other hand, when people talk about sanctions they say the U.N. IS THE U.S.A and it's solely the fault of the United States that sanctions were put in place and kept. Make up your tree hugging mind will you.

Undutchable

Don't call me a groupie, you didn't catch me insulting you did I?

I told you that the UN is an organ governed primarily by the WEST, please read carefully before you respond. I'm part of the west and part of the society that put these sanctions in place. I think the US and the rest of the West should involve the rest of the world into their politics. We have to stop playing the dominance game because it's not the way to go if we want the global cooperation that the UN and other organisations have been aiming for.

I have made up my mind and I'm very clear about it, if you don't agree with it then present some arguments. I hate it when people are disrespectful just because it's a fucking board. You might bump into me sometime ya know? Save the tree hugging comments for when that time comes.

BigFish

Isn't it obvious that the U.S. and the U.N. are separate bodies already? This is the U.N.:

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

You put in your argument, in the same sentence, that 'we' the United States are responsible for the deaths. If 'we' had so much power over the U.N. then there would not be any discussion over IRAQ right now because it would have already been over. Why not tie that list to the deaths too instead of singling out the United States like the typical propagandist would do and has done.


The U.S. is not playing a dominance game. It just wants to get rid on one tyrant with war crimes history in the Middle East. Getting rid of a mental leader is not playing dominance (more propaganda). The U.S. has the military capabilities to take over Canada and Mexico at the same time, do you see the U.S. doing that? In the young history of the United States, when have we ever attacked another country just for the sake of conquering it?

TNVeric

The problem is not Saddam. He is too worried about covering his ass to try anything bold at this point.

What happens when Uday takes over? The stories that others have posted on this board come from multiple reliable witnesses. This guy is pure evil. We just cannot allow him to run Iraq. Even if the family goes into exile, we must hunt them down. Can we say for sure that they won't loot Iraq of billions of dollars and take some bio-weapons with them. The only good thing about these people is that they are consistent. We can actually count on them to do just that.

Either way we have to finish off the Hussein family. End of story.

-TNVEric.

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Paul Markham

OK how is going to IRAQ kicking our a dictator going to ruin the whole world?? I mean they will go over and kick the crap out of IRAQ faster than in the gulf war and then they will give the country to a democracy and the people in IRAQ will once again have a properous country and millions of peoples quality of living will be improved. USA does not conquer and keep countries they turn them into successes.

They invest billions into the countrys, just look at Germany and Japan who were the USA's worst enemy and 50 years on they have nothing but prosperity.

War brings peace. enough said. [/B][/QUOTE]If it was only that simple.

I suppose they could not do that in Afghanistan, but they can in Iraq.

Yes Sadaam is an evil man, but more or less evil than Kim in Korea? Who we know wants S. Korea. Sadaam got his arse kicked in Kuwait and is not so stupid to try that again. Keep a peace keeping force in the area and there is no problem.

Bush is about to open Pandoras box and he thinks it will be over in 6-8 weeks. Now that is scary, especially after Afghanistan.

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Undutchable

Some clarification: All I did was quote Madeleine Albright and her comment. I did NOT say that the US was responsible for the sanctions, I said WE the entire West is, or actually the UN but since that's mostly controlled by the West... Enough said

I myself am not from the USA so when I say "we" I generally mean the modern world / the west.

As for the dominance thing: Just one tyrant? Bush already mentioned Iran and hinted at another conflict! Hello, this is the third war he's hinting at in just 1 4 year election period... And it is the third Muslim nation that he's wanting to attack.

If you would visit the Middle East you'd get a good idea of the public opinion. People hate the USA because they fear it. They fear it because they have seen the counless acts of war that their allies have suffered. They feel as if they can be next.

At the moment, the leaders in the Middle East are very favorable to the USA. The ties with the US are pretty good, but the public opinion does not reflect that at all. It is a very unstable situation that has the potential of going bad very quickly. As for your last sentence, isn't that how the US was founded? ;) We might prefer to forget that, but if we're going to look at the bad sides of others, let's not forget our own

wonton

Man, it's all pretty simple and pretty obvious. We are going to war for OIL and only for OIL. All this weapons of mass destruction shit and UN resolution garbage is all bullshit. North Korea, Israel, Russia, Libya... all have weapons of mass destruction and have violated numerous UN resolutions. Why aren't we invading them?! BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO FUCKING OIL THAT'S WHY!!!

And all this bullshit about Sadaam being Dr. Evil is just that - bullshit! Of course he's nasty but he was nasty since 1973. He was nasty when he gassed the Kurds in 1988 WITH GAS THAT BUSH SENIOR SOLD HIM as head of the CIA. He was nasty when he slaughtered 500,000 Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war - WHEN PRESIDENT REAGAN FULLY SUPPORTED HIM!

But now Sadaam is suddenly public enemy # 1? Of course...CNN recently reported that global oil production has peaked and Sadaam just happens to be sitting on the world's second largest reserve on the planet.

Even a six year old could figure this out. It's about OIL and only about OIL.

But hey - I'm all for it. I want cheap gas and want to maintain my American lifestyle. Fuck 'em all, I say. But at least let's be honest about it!