BFT3K

Unfortunately the old saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely" can be applied to almost any situation. - from greedy politicians, to greedy union leaders.

The key is to keep balance. Government is necessary, but corruption is not. Same with unions. Balance is key.

Remove government completely and we will have anarchy. Remove unions completely and the corporate powers that be, will happily take away more of the people's rights, as the "people" will be further divided.

None of our problems can be solved without a balanced approach. Most issues are not as black-and-white as we wish they were.

Cherry7

Thank you for the interesting post....

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12clicks

this uneducated argument comes up often.
take NJ for example. You have a minority of successful people propping up the state and voting conservative and then you have the rabble in towns like camden, jersey city, trenton, etc. etc. leeching off of the system and voting democratic.
Your chart is an accurate lie.
a misstating of the facts to convey an inaccurate picture.

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raymor

In that case I don't know what you mean by "a hundred years off."
The OP stated that the unions were directly responsible for the civil rights act of 1964. I showed that in fact their side, the left, tried to stop it. Please explain how that's a hundred years off.

The OP also claimed that the unions were responsible for the eight hour day standard. I mentioned that president Grant made tge right hour proclamation long before powerful unions existed. Please explain your comment.

Given the few words you said, I guessed that you meant I was confusing 1964 with 1866, that the left actually supported civil rights in '64. People who claim that simply don't know recent history, or wish it were different and claim their wishes as fact.

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TheDoc

The fact that you even attempted to show dems were against it is, pointless, then referencing history a hundred years before, is even more pointless. That's was the point.

Moving on... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

"In the United States, Philadelphia carpenters went on strike in 1791 for the ten-hour day. By the 1830s, this had become a general demand. In 1835, workers in Philadelphia organized a general strike, led by Irish coal heavers. Their banners read, From 6 to 6, ten hours work and two hours for meals. Labor movement publications called for an eight-hour day as early as 1836. Boston ship carpenters, although not unionized, achieved an eight-hour day in 1842."

"....On May 19, 1869, Grant signed a National Eight Hour Law Proclamation."

78 after they first went on strike.... thank you unions!

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_Richard_

remember reading that story about american military bombing striking unions.. in america..

raymor

The Flintstones, Cleaver post is excellent in that it makes so strikingly clear the heart if the disagreement. The poster says that minimum wage should support an average family. On the other side I recognize that I started at minimum wage when I read fifteen, working a job that taught me basics like showing up on time. By showing up and doing my job, I earned a raise within two months and two years later I was earning twice minimum wage. From where I sit, minimum wage is the MINIMUM for a minimally useful employee, probably a teenager just starting out. It's also the minimum cost to hire a drunk who calls in all of the time.

It seems to me that the sixteen year old and the lazy slob who doesn't bother to show up on time do not produce enough to support a family. If you need to support a family, you need to show up on time and learn your job so you'll be worth a lot more than minimum wage. Regardless of "right" or "wrong", the claim that minimum wage should support a family with a couple kids shows clearly where rhe underlying thinking differs.

I don't need a union to set my wage and I didn't need one when I was flipping burgers because I worked hard to be worth what I needed to earn. When I left one burger place, I had two other job offers within an hour.

I am curious, assume minimum wage were set high enough to support a family of four, say $20 / hour. Do you think teenagers would be paid $20 / hour to do work that's worth only $8, with companies losing money on every employee, or do you think that the young, the drunk and the lazy simply wouldn't be hired at all?

I know the answer for our company.

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dyna mo

what story would that be?

JamesGw

It's insane how much more money you can make by being union. I knew a girl that got ~150/hr doing sheet metal because he was union. After he moved to an area without unions, he would have been doing 30/hr for the same work.

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raymor

Thank you for clarifying. I believe I understand your point now. Your point is that a
local guild in Philadelphia was helpful to it's dozens of members long before the
modern age of powerful national unions and that was also before the eight hour day
was implemented nationally under Grant. I wonder how a few dozen Philadelphia
carpenters in the 1700s relate to the 11 million member AFL-CIO today. Should the
AFL-CIO get credit for what a few dozen Philadelphia carpenters did in 1791, because
they could both be called "unions"?

I wonder if small local unions would be as helpful today as they were around the
time the country was founded. Of course, I don't know what problems those small
local unions caused back then. Maybe they caused big problems, maybe not, I don't know.
Maybe that style of small local union would be more helpful today. I don't know.
Did the modern age of national mega-unions as a result of WWII ruin a good thing?

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_Richard_

the story of the us military bombing union strikers.. i am sure you have as much access to google as i do

Sly

Not finding anything.

Why would you mention an obscure story and then refuse to post information about it?

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dyna mo

of course i have google and i used it in this instance- results = nada

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...triking+unions

thus my asking you what story are you talking about.

Sly

Okay, I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...military_force

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_Richard_

oh weird.. you guys are having trouble pulling up results

how.. odd.

baddog

Back in the day, union busting used to be a lot harsher than what WI is doing today. While I am confident the US military never got involved in union busting, he may be referring to Hooverville and when the Army was called in to remove the occupants during the Great Depression

_Richard_

woo forgive my sassiness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

even this is incorrect lol private planes in 1921 with access to ordinance from ww1? haha

baddog

You like to spin everything you can to be anti-US even if it means making shit up.

_Richard_

here is a 'less edited' version of the story

http://www.redneckpossum.com/BattleOfBlairMountain.htm

victors do write the history apparently

_Richard_

a personal attack based on nothing? why baddog, i am disappoint

dyna mo

no reason to be defensive.

you can make this about my google skills all you want and maybe i am not the top notch googler, yawn, but i simply inquired as to what story you are talking about.

_Richard_

i make what about you? i was stating that i had a lot more difficulty finding this information this time around than i did before, why i was apologizing for my sassiness

dyna mo

The fledgling United States Army Air Service dropped a few pipe and tear gas bombs as a demonstration meant to overawe the labor organizers.

_Richard_

keep reading

_Richard_

i like this sentence the best:

"On orders from the famous General Billy Mitchell, Army bombers from Maryland were also used to disperse the miners, a rare example of Air Power being used by the federal government against US citizens."

dyna mo

i read the whole thing.

_Richard_

wonderful.

_Richard_

so is this tear gas or pipebomb?

guess you missed the pictures?

baddog

You provided two links and each said the planes were there for different reasons. Naturally, you picked the one that implied "american military bombing striking unions."

Since you were not there, you do not know what really happened. History = his story. I know which story you believe.

12clicks

..............

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Sly

So now we are talking about the possibility of the US military bombing striking unions 50+ years ago?

What that has to do with current union politics, I have no idea.

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_Richard_

if you weren't either, why are you telling me what i do and do not know?

before i mentioned this you were all 'the US military would NEVER', but we know that is now not true as these magical 'private planes' were armed with military ordinance.

it's funny you bring up the idea of 'twisting history'

_Richard_

current union politics? or the same politics all along?

Vendzilla

We don't need to add more border control, we need to shut off the silver spoon, we voted to pass prop 187 but we were denied by one fucktard judge. It would have saved the state BILLIONS. The border security is more for control drug and gun traffic and anyone attemping it should be shot. It won't stop them, but enough of them get shot, less of them to keep trying

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think about that

dyna mo

i wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what that is. and there were no pics on the link i clicked so yes, i missed the pictures. :-(

baddog

and you still have not proven that the US military EVER BOMBED strikers. Crowd control in a riot is not an act of war.

More of your bullshit . . . I can take care of this

Barry-xlovecam

baddog

It is obviously a prototype of an A-bomb. Take off the blinders.


</sarcasm>

dyna mo

well played.

_Richard_

how does a military bomber disperse a crowd, baddog? who owns private planes in 1921 and how do these private planes get military ordinance?

ahh swearing.

Sunny Day

25 June 1938 (United States)
The Wages and Hours (later Fair Labor Standards) Act is passed, banning child labor and setting the 40-hour work week. The Act went into effect in October 1940, and was upheld in the Supreme Court on 3 February 1941.

That's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ues_and_events

You can see how many times troops or Natl. Guardsmen were called out

May 1934 (United States)
Police attacked and fired upon striking Teamster truck drivers in Minneapolis who were demanding recognition of their union, wage increases, and shorter working hours. As violence escalated, Governor Olson went so far as to declare martial law in Minneapolis, deploying 4,000 National Guardsmen. The strike ended on August 21 when company owners finally accepted union demands.

20 April 1914 (United States)
The "Ludlow Massacre." In an attempt to persuade strikers at Colorado's Ludlow Mine Field to return to work, company "guards," engaged by John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and other mine operators and sworn into the State Militia just for the occasion, attacked a union tent camp with machine guns, then set it afire. Five men, two women and 12 children died as a result.[4][5]

Unions did violence too. But guards at Ford plants in the 30's carried Thompson sub-machine guns and used them regularly.

Sunny Day

From
http://www.wvculture.org/history/jou...h/wvh50-1.html



Even while negotiating with Governor Morgan, General Harbord proceeded with preparations to intervene. On August 26, he sent Bandholtz to prepare for infantry operations and instructed Major General Charles T. Menoher, Chief of the Air Service, to examine Kanawha Field, outside Charleston, to determine its suitability for use in either reconnaissance or tactical air support operations. Later in the day, commander of the First Provisional Air Brigade, Brigadier General Billy Mitchell, personally led a flight of three olive-drab DeHavilland Bombers (DH-4B) from Bolling Field in the District of Columbia to execute Harbord's orders concerning Kanawha Field. Upon landing, Mitchell, never one to mince words about airpower, commented to the press that the Army Air Service, by itself, could end the civil disturbance by dropping canisters of tear gas upon the miners. If that failed he recommended the use of artillery by the ground forces to bring the crisis to a speedy conclusion.31

Fortunately, Billy Mitchell lost the opportunity to demonstrate what tear gas or artillery could do to mountaineers, miners, and immigrants armed with hunting rifles. As soon as Keeney and Mooney read Bandholtz's note and addressed the crowd, the miners decided to call off the march. The two men impressed the group with the seriousness of the current situation and appealed to their loyalty and patriotism. If the march continued, it was stated, it would be done against the direct orders of the President of the United States. The miners would then be facing the entire might of the federal government and the United States Army. For the first time many miners realized that their march was interpreted by federal authorities as a rebellion against the West Virginia and federal governments and not as a justified and righteous struggle against what miners perceived as greedy coal operators, corrupt sheriffs, or ruthless Baldwin-Felts "thugs." As the marchers began to disperse, Keeney and Mooney hurriedly made arrangements with local railroads on August 27 to return the miners to their homes.32

_Richard_

so the picture of the miners with the bomb is a fake?

Sunny Day

I have no clue or clue where/when that picture was taken. Could be a bomb to use on miners, could be a bomb made by miners for all I know.

baddog

Oh come on. Stop being such a sheep. The only reason thermonuclear devices were not used for union busting is that the strike line was right in front of the businesses. They needed smart bombs.