$250K is not "average" at all.

It is nowhere near "rich" and incredibly short of "super rich" but certainly more than the median...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

Median is just the middle where half the households make more and half make less. Nothing more.

A better indicator would be a bell curve and the standard deviation. Then you could make some claims concerning relative wealth and how it relates to where one fell on the curve.

Wealth is hard to measure by income. Steve Jobs only makes $1/year. Is he poor? That formula only works for employee type income, which is generally the poor and middle class.

Not sure what this babble has to do with spending cuts........and neither will you when you sleep of your drunk

Man, the fantasies some of you kids believe.....

Lol.... of course your stupid ass thinks it's a spending cut when you use debt to pay for it... hahahahahahahaha.


Truly, lol... no wonder this country is so fucked. This is 2nd grade math and it goes straight over your head... maybe this is why your business failed so bad? You can read a tape measure like no other, but basic balancing of a check book is without question far far far past your abilities.... :1orglaugh

There's nothing wrong with someone earning $984000000 a year if he did it in an honest way: that is by providing products and services other people value and are willing to pay for.

Neighbors voluntarily helping each other -> good.
Doctors voluntarily spending their vacation in Africa helping poor people -> good.
People voluntarily raising money to help the homeless -> good.
...

Government programs -> only wreak havoc.
From an economic point of view government intervention only increases time preference, resulting in higher consumption, less saving,...
From a sociological point of view this increase in time preference results in higher crime rates, drug and alcohol abuse, higher divorce rates,...

for more info see Hans-Hermann Hoppe on time preference.

Other than... Gov programs haven't only wreaked havoc. I kinda like my interstates and highways and bridges. I've seen first hand welfare programs help people and those people use it to start over, and successfully do so - when nobody else would help, period!

From an economic point of view, the gov has funded almost everything that has grown our great country to various levels throughout history - including the technology you use to make this post, so bad aren't they?

Odd, countries with social gov's, much more gov in life... don't all have higher crime rates, drug, alcohol abuse, or divorce rates. Actually, most of those countries have MUCH lower rates than America.


In a Country that votes on local/state laws, elects the people, etc... if it's fucked up, it's OUR OWN fault... not the fake hand of the big gov that everyone likes to blame.

Does a person making $250k a year have the same right to their property as someone making $50k a year?

The only industry that pays themselves that much money is the financial industry. They are the highest paid individuals in the world and they produce/create nothing.

Other industries, like life products, even with almost full market penetration with some products, the owners don't come anywhere close to making enough to pay themselves that type of money, even the entire company doesn't make that much money.

Almost all fortune 500 company owners make less than 15 million a year (I think it was, it wasn't that high either way), you have to add up total value of every asset they own to get to the billions, with the biggest in the entire country being only 50 billion or so.

Nothing about the financial industry is honest.... they stole trillions from us, take our tax dollars and make more money, then pay themselves fat bonuses with our money directly.

They should be taxed to death, 98%+

Try switching the drop down on the left from "pct GDP" to "$ billions" and see if that helps.



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If someone needs proof of what you are saying here. Simply look south.

the richer get richer and the poorer get poorer :(

Absolutely!

I blame lobbying.

I fully understand your anger. While it is true that most (all? empirical question ;) ) of the 'super rich' have made their fortune (or at least a major part of it) in unethical ways, this still does not justify taxation.

Taxation is a practice whereby one organization forces another to pay, regardless of what this other organization has done. Taxation is a violation of people's property rights and therefor unethical.

Back tot he financial industry: The hideous things banks have done and continue to do, they have been able to do thanks to the state. It is the state that forces people to use fiat currency. It is the state that forces people to use banks. It is the state that takes out loans "in the name of the people" and taxes people so it can pay back those loans with interest. It is the state that allows banks to run their fractional reserve scheme (something that is inherently unstable and banks would be unable to do in a free market). It is the state that covers the banks' losses with money it takes (taxation) from 'the people'. It is the state that rewards the irresponsible behavior of the banks.

This whole low taxes vs high taxes for group x vs group y discussion is nothing but a distraction. Divide and conquer... make the poor and middle class, entrepreneurs and wage workers, etc fights amongst each other about who should be taxed that tiny bit more and the result is that that no one takes the time to question the underlying problem. People fight amongst each other and the system, the institution that makes all of this corruption possible remains safe, out of the spotlight.

Another president, another congress, another senate, another head of the Fed, new regulations, a different tax system,.... none of these things will fix anything.

Like they said in "The Tigercat": everything had to change so everything could remain the same.

If you really want to change something, fight the disease, not its symptoms.

the gold standard made the great depression worse, how soon people forget ...

please spend some of your money on a better banner, that thing is hurting my eyes

please elaborate.

not that hard to google it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_st...eat_Depression

wow, this kid wakes up drunk.
No wonder he's on the bottom rung of society.:1orglaugh

You anti-banking, anti-financial guys don't have a good grasp on these industries.


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Hey chump change, you missed something.... :1orglaugh



Oh snap..... you were saying?

Excellent post, and this particular point is one that I'm so shocked that people don't recognize. I know that most people don't understand banking or how free financial markets create risk that moderates banking behavior, but it still amazing how people can be duped into blaming banks for things that are the DIRECT result of the actions of government. I never understood how people could be so easily persuaded of the existence of outside scapegoats to distract them from what their governments were doing, but the last 20 years have been a real eye-opener. I now understand how regimes like the Nazi's came to power and convinced people that "someone else" was to blame for everything and that the only answer was to give yet more power to government.



.:Oh crap

A ridiculous spin post, complete with Nazi references! Congrats to you oh blind one!

No spin. Simply referencing my knowledge of banking, (since that's my business), and along with that a personal anecdote which reflects exactly what I have always wondered about human nature from when I was a child and have now witnessed over the last 20 years or more occurring in the US and elsewhere.

Just because you don't agree with my views on banking, free markets and governments, doesn't make it a "spin" post.




.:2 cents:




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To each there own, I suppose. From my perspective, when I hear people scapegoat FRB it's usually them that seem not to understand banking. :(


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There's nothing wrong with banking. It's an essential service of any complex economy and will always arise in a free market. There is however a huge difference between legitimate banking services and the way our banks are being run today. See "The Mystery Of Banking" by Murray Rothbard for more info.

"The gold standard limited the flexibility of central banks' monetary policy by limiting their ability to expand the money supply, and thus their ability to lower interest rates."

Its the manipulation of the money supply by the central bank that causes the boom. It's the further manipulation of the money supply by the central bank and the intervention of the government in the economy that cause the boom to get bigger. The bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.

Oh I'm not angry.. I'm simply being realistic. When it's my tax dollars, and they're using them to make more money, then yeah - taxing them to death is very ethical. If they earned it all without my dollars, then sure, just like everyone else.

I would love a world of no taxes.. and unethical? Only if it doesn't benefit me!

Well, the banks followed the natural progression of the free market, the same progression every industry in the world follows. Whatever State, people, fed, hand you think controls them today, is false... banks are the result of the free market and thus will be here until technology replaces them.

Well, thing is... 90% of the population is on board with taxing the living shit out of the super rich and basically not taxing us anything... if only those making higher incomes would stop yelling down, and start yelling up, everyone would be going the right direction.

Even though I know banks, the reserve, etc... in various ways fuck me over, just like you, I'm not doing anything about it. So rather than discussing what we aren't going to change, I tend to work within the boundaries of reality that I can alter.

If you try to cure the disease it simply moves to a new location... like wealth, it never goes away, it's the balance that goes with it. I don't want to change what can not be changed.... I want to make it work for me, more!

free pdf: http://mises.org/resources/614

So how do you justify a progressive tax?

Yes, I'm familiar with him. Anarchocapitalism would not work in practice.

And I think there's a reason that it is not practiced.


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I know we're not going to change the world by discussing things on a message board etc. And I know most people aren't going to question the whole concept of taxation etc

Personally, I try to lead my life without causing any injustice. Like Ghandi (yes, I'm quoting Ghandi on gfy :) ) said: "be the change you want to see in the world". I work hard, I make money by providing products and services other people value and are willing to pay for. I pay my taxes eventhough I think forcing people to pay taxes is unethical (I pay them because I know the taxman will otherwise make my life a living hell). I try to help my friends, family and neighbors as much as possible (because 1. I think that is what friends do, 2. because I realize that someday I might need help). I never steal. I don't accept any kind of government funding/subsidies. I don't steal. I don't commit murder. I don't profit from criminal activities.

Yep, I'm familiar with that, too. But thanks.



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regardless of what you may think of his political ideas, I recommend you a closer look at the mystery of banking. I'm willing to bet that it will change your opinion on FRB.:winkwink:

edit: I see you replied while I was typing :)

Ghandi is speaking from the inner self. When he says, be the change you want to see in the world, it has to do with your own thoughts manifesting the reality around you. Actions create thoughts, which manifest reality, but all the action in the world doesn't stop wondering thoughts, so your reality is bound to change.....

Anyway :)

While lots of people are just like you, unfortunately history has proven the rest of the population is pretty much selfish bastards that would rather step over a hungry kid and look at them funny rather than ask them to move in, and truly help them.

I don't steal, murder, and I try not even to hate but at the end of day, I walked around the kid too.

I walked around those kids too on many occasions, but while I did nothing to help them I also did nothing to hurt them. I didn't rob them and I didn't encourage a 3rd party (the state) to tax them and use that tax money to build nice roads for me.

While the whole "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" concept is indeed not for everyone, I think more people should consider the easier version: "Don't do unto others what you wouldn't like them to do unto you".

So Moveon.org hired a cartoonist to teach us about the economy?

He left out a few things

Yeah, sorry about that... not sure why I addressed that. I'm a bit tired. I just got back from a 2500 meter swim and all I want to do is eat and rest. :)

I meant to address, but left out for some odd reason, the banking side and the whole Austrian School of thought, which I don't find compelling. I think we've been through this before.

It is a fringe position, IMO. I think it is flawed. It can't be modeled. It's why no OECD country adopts it. It has next to no chance of being legislated in the developed world. No mainstream political organization wants to abolish fractional reserve banking.

I also have problems when it is conflated with government borrowing, which is a step many make that I don't share.


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We are part of the problem then... we don't have to cause direct harm to them, ignoring them helps keep the problem going.

Think how bad it would suck for them, if we had trash roads, no safety services, if it was dirt they truly slept in within our cities, if they had no food banks, or places to sleep on cold nights, no public transportation, no welfare, school lunch programs, even education or subsidized housing that have helped tens of millions of Americans.

Reality is, we do step around them... we live in a world filled with personal greed and attachment to everything around us.

That fake dollar, setup by the State, (as well as gold, our tv, a loaf of bread, etc) has more value to us than a human life.