Libertine

Lately, there have been lots of people saying that showing porn with 18+ girls that look younger than that is immoral, because pedophiles get off on it. That's an example of severely flawed logic, as I will try to show you.

Pedofilia is not something people choose. Pedo's do not wake up one day and think, "Gee, wouldn't it be fun to be attracted to very young girls?". It's a sexual disorder, one that drives many of them to suicide and leads to very severe social problems.

Now, there are those among them that follow their desires, and do things we consider immoral. They abuse young girls/boys, and should indeed be punished severely for that.

However, there are also many among them (probably the majority) that do NOT give in to their desires, and suppress their feelings because they realize that it would be immoral to abuse children.

A good way for these people to relieve the sexual tension they are bound to build up is to watch porn with girls that are over 18 but look young. For instance, they might join tawneestone.com or the likes, knowing that she is over 18 but looks young enough for them to get off on.
Now, when they do this, what exactly is wrong or immoral about it? The girl in question is over 18, and the guys watching it can relieve their sexual desires without having to resort to illegal acts.

Still, some people say these people should "burn in hell" or "get tortured to death". But why?!
They have sexual desires which they haven't chosen themselves, and realizing that fulfilling them would be immoral and illegal, they resort to something which doesn't hurt anybody.
They cope with a very serious sexual disorder, and do that in a way which doesn't hurt anyone. If anything, they deserve our respect, and most certainly not hatred.

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Sly_RJ

Sexual preference is a disorder?

Bull shit.

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Libertine

Well, you may also call it a sexual preference. That doesn't change a thing.

Edit: the reason I called it a disorder is that it is considered just that by the majority of people. One can consider socially unacceptable sexual preferences a social disorder, since they severely hinder one's functioning within society.

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Scott McD

If they want the "young girl" look, they will obviously go for the cp sites aswell, and not just ones like tawny's. Then that gives the cp a market, and thats why it still goes on today.

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Libertine

Why would they go for cp sites as well?
Has it occurred to you that maybe they realize abusing children is immoral and illegal, and therefore don't want to have any part in it?

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Chong

punk i understand what you're getting at, and it makes sense to me.... obviously mcD doesn't

SpaceAce

It's a moot point. If they are over 18, they are over 18. Whether they look 18 or not is a bullshit question with nothing to do with anything.

Either they are of legal age to be in porn or they are not. There is no other question.

SpaceAce

eroswebmaster

Regardless of the reasons someone joins a site like Tawnee Stone's or any site that takes a model 18+ but makes her look younger...no laws are being broken by anyone. We can talk morals all fucking day long but guess what people...a majority of the world think we lack those little things called morals just because we peddle porn.

So becareful...those who live by the sword die by the sword so to speak.

However as a wm I would be worried about creating a site like teenkarma (18 year old who looks 14) only because I know there is a chance you would fuck up somewhere and not have an I dotted or a T crossed in some contract and get caught up in some shit storm.

You might spend a whole weekend or even longer in jail getting ass fucked because people think you're pushing CP all because you fucked up on one single contract.

Sure you get it all worked out in the end, find the model and prove she's 18+, but the damage done to you and your business may be irreperable.

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Libertine

I completely agree, but many people seem to disagree because "pedo's get off on it".

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ThunderBalls

punk, I agree mostly to what you are saying, but, if its a 'disorder' as you put it, then don't you think they should be getting help to correct the disorder rather than fueling their desires?

Libertine

Studies have shown that treating pedophiles basically doesn't work.
Sly_RJ had a point when he called it a sexual preference, pedophilia should most likely be considered a socially unacceptable sexual preference... and if it were illegal or immoral to be attracted to women, would you be able to change your attractions? I know I wouldn't be able to change that for myself.

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eroswebmaster

Seriously...who in their right mind would show up somewhere and say...Hey I'm a pedo and want some help.

You've got states enacting laws now that if someone does molest a kid when they get out to prison they are shipped off to hospitals where they can be kept indefinitely.

My point being that if you were to admit something like this you could open up a can of worms that would or could literally destroy your life even if you had not committed any crimes.

I agree it's a horrible issue and when a crime is committed it's a horrible crime.

But just recentley I read about some sexual offender who was chased out of 4 different states because by law he had to register as a sex offender.

Now we all know why they have to register, but let's think about this.

What if that person is actually trying to correct this issue and is seeking help. He still lives in a world of punishment. Not only is their physical lives threatened, but I'm sure they are ruined financially. ( and yes I'm sure they deserve all this) But in the end what happens to this guy?

He gets to a point where he's under a lot of pressure (when most offendors commit their crime) seeing no way out he offends again.
Maybe this time it's worse, he kills the kid.

Then everyone sits back and says..."see I knew he'd do it again."

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Gman.357

Punkworld, according to your logic, the lusting of young girls or boys is a disorder along the same lines of alcoholism or drug addiction. Correct? Regardless, if it is or isn't a disorder, fulfilling and nurturing those forbidden desires by supplying pple like that with "fantasy" content that stimulates their mentality is very much like treating alcoholics with booze injections, or drug addicts with a steady supply of narcotics. It doesn't help the problem, and in fact can make it much worse.

If a pedo can go to a site LEGALLY and look at girls who appear underage (regardless if they are or not), it's only satisfying them temporarily. Like anything else you indulge sexually, they will eventually become desensitised to the "fake" stuff, and either go looking for the real deal, or worse... the real thing.

Not to mention this... as content providers and webmasters go, catering to this "nymph" or underage appeal can prove very dangerous! If a girl looks 14, but her ID says she's 18, and a content provider shoots her because her ID says she's legal but she really ISN'T.. then that's a whole world of trouble no one wants. So why bother fucking with that shit in the first place? Fake ID's are easy to get.

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Ouch.

Fletch XXX

Good post Punk.

Its very difficult and almost retarded to expect a logical, perhaps phychological discussion on this board, but I totally agree.

I bet, people here have forgotten that wasnt it Freud who said that EVERY man is born with the natural desire, and will to both fuck and kill his own mother, even his sisters and children?

And that it shall be only the Id, and the progress of growth that determines when those 'feelings' or 'desires' either reach the surface, or fall back into the depths of the consciousness.

I have plenty of books on sexual psychology, and freud, and jung blah blah blah. Very into the things that make humans do what they do, always have been.

I dont expect anything less than silly nonproof backed posts here, but you are definitely onto the tip of the iceberg.

cherrylula

aren't there countries where girls get married and shit when they're like 12?

eroswebmaster

Basically the same argument people use about mainstream porn, even softcore mags like Playboy.

Guys look at this stuff become desensitized and then go out and rape women.

Regardless of what the fantasy is, as long as they are all consenting adults from producer, to actor, to consumer, no one is breaking any laws.

Doesn't mean I'll push it, promote it, produce it...but as a person who believes very strongly in our first amendment rights I'll defend your right to.

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twistyneck

I think it's like that in Canada.

Bobo

I've never had such desires. In short, Freud was wrong on that score.

Bobo

LOL, that's a joke, right?

Fletch XXX

If you had read anything, youd know.

It happens 1n the first stages of your life, you dont even remember.

Pick up a book sometime.

Libertine

First of all, I do NOT compare it with any kind of addiction. I have already called it a socially unacceptable sexual preference several times, and that is what I consider it to be.
The problem with sexual preferences is that it is close to impossible to "treat" them (as has been shown by the results when trying to "cure" pedophiles). They're most likely there to stay.
If they decide not to try and fulfil their sexual desires because they themselves consider them immoral, chances are that they will keep up that attitude.
Now, what you are saying comes very close to saying that porn causes rape. After all, if a very ugly man can't get laid, and he watches porn instead, by your logic he eventually will become desensitized and resort to something else.

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Bobo

You can try to convince me with psychobabble all day long. Nobody subscribes to that bullshit. 'Cause that's what it is, bullshit. Don't believe everything you read, not even from 'experts' because they're often wrong

Read further, and you'll discover that much of what Freud wrote about has been discounted for the past 20 years.

In fact, he had a protege by the name of Carl Jung who disagreed with much of what his mentor taught him.

Fletch XXX

The day I believe an idiot on a BBS called 'Bobo' over Sigmund Freud is the day I suck off Mr T.

Sly_RJ

Sure. I'd believe everything Freud has to say.

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Libertine

Actually, this is one of the few things which have held up pretty decently over the past hundred years.

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Bobo

Don't take my word for it. It's the opinion of the scientific community. Should I schedule your appointment with Mr T now?

Only an idiot would take what Freud wrote as the gospel.

LiveDose

Good. To bad this doesn't happen more often.

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SpaceAce

Liquor stores sell alcohol, despite there being alcoholics.

If fake IDs were so easy to get, all content providers that deal in anything less than 40-year-olds would be languishing in prison. Besides, legal identification is the only way to judge someone's age. If it later turns out that the person obtained ID from the government under false pretenses (they altered their birth certificate, etc.) I seriously doubt they could ever make a conviction stick.

It's not my job to worry about the mental illness/sexual preferences/oddities of every single person who might come across my site. Either I am working inside the law or I am not. You can't ask anything more of people.

SpaceAce

Bobo

That's news to me. Care to share evidence?

Fletch XXX

Gimme some links to thsi 'Scientific Community?'

Did I say it was gospel? I said I barely knew if it was him or jung, i just knew I had read the theory.

Take it as you like 'Bobo'

ThunderBalls

Yes, I've read the same about the inability to treat them, but I think treatment for this type of thing has not been explored as aggressively as for other disorders.

Having a degree in psychology I by no means consider myself an expert on the subject, but in my opinion having a sexual desire for women is implanted in you by nature and having an 'abnormal' sexual desire for children is implanted in you more by environmental factors, I really don't think the majority of pedophiles were born with those desires.

Gman.357

There are alternatives for "ugly" men who can't get laid to still get the real thing without resorting to rape. But Pedos can not get the real thing without getting the real thing.

And yes, I'm saying that watching porn all the time can be desensitizing just like viewing scenes of violence can be. I can validate that point in this way... go to rotten.com and find a disgusting pic that makes you sick. Then look at that image once a day every day for a month. You will eventually become used to seeing it, and it will take something even more shocking to get the same reaction you got the first time you looked at it.

Doesn't mean you're gonna wanna go out and kill someone to get that same feeling again, but that's because you don't LIKE that feeling. But when you do like the feeling you get from something (sexually) you want more of it. And pretty soon, pictures won't provide the same feeling. Then movies won't be good enough. You're gonna eventually want to try the real thing... in this case it's sex, and for pedos it's sex with kids.

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Ouch.

Libertine

Don't have any. I took a few psychology classes in university, and this is what my professors said. They might be wrong though, I am not exactly an expert in the field so I wouldn't know.

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Scott McD

These threads always get everyone on the defensive, or offensive.

Ah well, makes a good read....

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SpaceAce

Actually, Freudian analysis is alive and well. Much of his work is now disputed, but it has hardly been "discounted" as a whole. Specifically, I believe the Oedipal Complex has held up pretty well through the years. All you have to do to see proof is spend time around very young male children. The mother is the ideal. She takes care of him, feeds him, loves him, clothes him. The main rival for that affection is the father.

Carl Jung also believed he had visions in his dreams and was connected to a world consciousness that included, I believe, dead people.

SpaceAce

Libertine

So broke ugly men or ugly men in countries where prostitution is illegal will resort to rape?
Personally, in times when I don't have a girlfriend I very happily use porn to relieve sexual tension. I have never raped a girl though, nor have I ever paid for sex.

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Bobo

I did an AltaVista search for your convenience:
http://www.personalityresearch.org/p...eystehner.html

Check the APA style references at the bottom of the paper for further reading/critiques.

Fletch XXX

The basic defense of this theory would be to assume, the mind, or better yet 'psychological age' had not yet surpassed the 'Id' stages, or regressing into instinct like, animalistic behavior.

All animals are born with these. Mother animals kill and eat their babies all the time.

Its not that different with humans.

I just watched a court trial about a mom who drowned 6 babies, back to back.

Fletch XXX

<img src=http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/weird/hannibal_lecter/(T)-Ed-Gein.jpg border="1">

Bobo

I didn't say all of his work has been discounted. Clearly, much of it has been adopted. Terms like 'repression' have become a part of our vocabulary - these are terms Freud created.

But, we should be able to remove the good from the bad. The Oedipal Complex is a good example of the bad.

Libertine

Ah, the infamous nature/nurture debate ;)
Well, you could just take other fetishes as an example if you consider "abnormal" sexual desires a result of environmental factors. As far as I know, changing those has been proven to be close to impossible as well.

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Gman.357

I don't know what the statistics are, or even if there are statistics on such matters. But it seems very likely that broke ugly men in countries where prostitution is illegal will resort to one or more of the following options:

1) Find a girl who is also ugly and broke and live a happy existance together.

2) Illegally solicit sex from prostitutes (just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's not there)

3) Get so frustrated with his miserable existance, that he commits suicide or kills someone out of rage.

4) Resorts to the lowest common denominator of rape or forced sex.

5) Become a priest in the Catholic Church.


And it's good that you don't have to resort to rape or pay for sex., but you know the possiblility of your getting laid is still there... and eventually it will happen. Imagine having no hope at all, and constantly being rejected by women? Or worse... having no sexual desire for women, only little boys.

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Ouch.

Libertine

Obviously you don't know me

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Gman.357

Hehe. My wife has some hot stripper friends I can set you up with, and you won't have to pay of course.

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Ouch.

Libertine

But seriously, I don't think that in this case the porn is what makes the big difference between doing it and not doing it.
I agree with you that a relatively high % will probably actually do it, but I don't think porn is what causes this. I think that if anything, porn provides an alternative. Something better than just fantasizing, but still not the real thing.

Besides that, there is also the option of finding a girl that just looks young. Over here, sex with girls from age 16 is legal, and finding a girl that is barely legal and looks young for her age seems like a real-life alternative that still isn't abuse.

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Libertine

I'm afraid my girlfriend would bite my head off if I did that

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Fletch XXX

Well Punk, thats why its legal.

(second time today I link this on the board)

awesome read, but I doubt many do or will.

http://www.lawrencewalters.com/virtual_article.php3

Mr.Fiction

I don't have the time to read this whole thread right now, but I wanted to point out that pedophiles are not people who have sex with 17 year old girls.

Pedophiles are people who are attracted to pre-pubescent children.

If someone has sex with a 17 year old girl or boy, they are not a pedophile. They may or may not be breaking the law, depending on where you are, but they are not a pedophile.

It's always annoying when people confuse the issue.

Libertine

At the moment those attracted to girls in their puberty (12-18) are generally considered pedophiles. As I made clear in my first post, I am talking about people attracted to girls that look slightly underage (underage teens), not about people attracted to pre-pubescent children.
I believe phebophilia is the correct term, but not many people know or use this word.

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.:Frog:.

No your thinking about the past.

It used to 100% normal for a young girl around 12 to marry a man in his late 20's or 30's and start a family. I think its only very recent in human history that the age gap has become much smaller.
(last several hundred years)

This had to do with a much shorter life Expectancy, and many other factors.

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