Clinton left on a very bad recession, because his bubble burst, that Bush and the Fed tried to correct by creating a housing bubble. How did that work out for us? :Oh crap

even if we are the greatest country on the planet (which you can debate, but we are definitely the planets largest economy), we are arguably in decline.

certainly we have problems. we have the national debt, infrastructre decay, trade deficits and a dependence of foreign oil, and rank behind a long list of other countries in a number of quality of life categories.

so, yes, we can use some change.

but we aren't going to get it.

we have trapped ourselves.

Recession? Clinton was out of office and 9/11 happened before we had two periods that dropped... The bubble going in 2000 didn't help 01, but it sure didn't cause the recession a year later.

Under Bush we had 3 years of recessions...

Yep. Bush came along as the economy was slowing, lowered taxes and went on a spending spree. Same thing as someone quitting their job, buying a bigger house and a new car. Its a recipe for financial disaster.

You mean just like Obama did? :helpme

Im not defending Bush just pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama.

8 years of bad Clinton policies (and policies before that) contributed to the recessions in the Bush years. This shit doesnt happen over night. It is flawed economic theory that both Bush and Clinton used.

Obama is trying to lower taxes? Regardless, fighting to keep tax cuts for the richest at the expense of making old poor people pay more is beyond sociopathic.

My grandmother used to say that if you leave a place better shape than you than you found it, you did a decent job. That's an argument that's rather hard to refute.

The country was in better shape at the end of Clinton's eight year tenure than it was at the beginning. A lot better.

Bush sure as hell can't say the same thing.

The jury is still out on Obama, but it ain't looking too good for him either.

Maybe Hillary should challenge Obama in '12.

Yeah, the 2001 recession did happen over night... It's pretty much without question that 9/11 is the major cause of the 2001 Recession. We probably wouldn't have had a recession if 9/11 didn't happen - it would have been an economic slow down. Actually, if nothing had changed most economics predict we would have kept growing......

Clinton left us with a peak market, that had rebounded after a short fall, which was holding somewhat stable (with a few markets down) until 9/11 hit... it's a huge stretch to blame him for anything when he left us with money to pay the bills and another jack ass totally reversed everything.

Funny thread, I based it on that FACT that Barry said his health care law cost as much as Bush's prescription drug bill, when the whole time when he was trying to sell that piece of shit bill he said it would save money.
I'm going by what he said, but his supporters are coming up with all sorts of excuses, thats right EXCUSES!!

Everyone is saying we can't cut medicare or social security or medicaid, so how we going to afford one more entitlement?



Obama said
...today, health insurance reform is the law of the land all across America...

AT&T Inc. will take a $1 billion non-cash accounting charge in the first quarter because of the health care overhaul and may cut benefits it offers to current and retired workers...

Obama said
...over the last year, there's been a lot of misinformation spread about health care reform. There's been plenty of fear-mongering, plenty of overheated rhetoric...

AK Steel Corp... and Valero Energy announced [similar] accounting charges, saying the health care law that President Barack Obama signed Tuesday will raise their expenses.

Obama said
...You turn on the news, you'll see the same folks are still shouting about there's going to be an end of the world because this bill passed. (Laughter.) ...

On Friday, 3M Co. said it will also take a charge of $85 million to $90 million.

Obama said
...I'm not exaggerating. Leaders of the Republican Party, they called the passage of this bill "Armageddon." (Laughter.) Armageddon. "End of freedom as we know it" ...

Manufacturer John Deere announced Thursday that it expected the company's expenses to be about $150 million higher than last year...

Obama said
...So after I signed the bill, I looked around to see if there any -- (laughter) -- asteroids falling or -- (applause) -- some cracks opening up in the Earth. (Laughter.) It turned out it was a nice day. (Laughter.) ...

That came a day after Caterpillar predicted a new cost of $100 million..

Obama said
...Birds were chirping. Folks were strolling down the Mall. People still have their doctors...

Most of the new costs will come in a reduction in subsidies that about 1,400 companies receive for providing drug coverage to their retirees. In an effort to raise several billion dollars for implementing the health care package, the law makes those subsidies taxable, just like income...

Obama
From this day forward, all of the cynics, all the naysayers -- they're going to have to confront the reality of what this reform is and what it isn't... this isn't a government takeover of our health care system. They'll see that if Americans like their doctor, they'll be keeping their doctor. You like your plan? You'll be keeping your plan. No one is taking that away from you......

10 top companies, including Caterpillar, John Deere, Verizon, Xerox, Boeing and Met Life, warned Congress in December that over the long term, it would [hurt their bottom line] "Taxing the subsidy means that more companies will eliminate or reduce the coverage," they warned, "and more retirees will shift to Medicare ... which will create more cost for both the government and the retirees."

Your logic is so twisted it's rather sad.... Bush's plan cost as much as an entire healthcare bill with pills included in it. That means Obama's plan was far BETTER, not worse at any level or angle. Even comparing them, is silly - Obama basically kicked his ass in with the healthcare plan, all around.


You can't cut Medicare, not without something to replace it with - bingo! And if they would leave SS alone it would be fine.


None of that other trash makes a difference... get on the wagon to improve what we have rather than trying to revert back to a system that has already failed America. And for the love of god, stop trying to translate Obama's speeches into your own twisted meanings.

no, he doesn't say that at all. You need to read it again, and comprehend what he is saying.

what he says is that medicare part b wasn't paid for in the bill that created it. I don't see any part in which he compares the costs.

your credibility suffers when you keep deliberately misprepresenting what the quoted lines are saying.

---

as for cutting entitlements, go ahead, do it. I'll never see any of that money, I don't care if you cut it. I think your side should do it, so do it.

I'm still waiting to see your side start to repeal the affordable care act.

nobody really knows wether the affordable care act will actually reduce medicare and medicaid, as obama and others claim. it might, there's no way to tell at this point, but anybody who believes it is doing so on faith, not because we understand how the bill will work in the real world.

do you have a source for a credible set of numbers comparing the two?

one hears this and one hears that - I was surprised when searching that I couldn't instantly find a website with good accounting and comparison.

Wiki says 500b over 10 years - I remember reading up to 1 trillion with all costs adjusted. Either way, I don't really consider that too much... a bit much for just pills, but that wasn't the big cost.

The big cost was seniors back pockets. They had to cover more up front, more monthly, more of the pills, and when the gap part ended, a % of all pills was paid. Give or take fine details - and it was different for different regions/states... so it was confusing to old people as well.

I don't think we could ever know what it really cost America, trillionS (already, let alone the future costs) is a huge number to keep track of...

Obamacare downshifts the costs to the states. Insurance and taxes are going to go up for the avg citizen but the "cost" for the federal government may appear to go down.

If "downshifting" is a new term to you I suggest you look it up. :thumbsup

Yes you are missing something. Millions of people will no longer be able to keep their insurance and will have to buy MORE EXPENSIVE insurance. As a matter of fact the whole state of Maine has been deemed exempt from the bill because it would skyrocket the cost.

The healthcare plan down shifting the costs to the States is how all Gov healthcare plans work. Medicare doesn't appear lower in costs because they shift it to the States.

Insurance goes up ONLY when insurance companies increase the rates... covering more people lowers rates in every Country in the world, so if they increase it - they alone are fucking us over.

Well the average citizen already pays an extreme amount more than the next Countries citizen pays - so we have some room to work with on getting the costs down, but that's going to be the people doing something about it...

Wrong. Insurance only goes up when the cost of business goes up. And when insurance companies work in a closed system the the hospitals can charge higher and higher rates in turn causing your insurance rates to go up. When your dollar goes down in value your insurance goes up. When more government regulation adds to the cost of the hospitals and insurance companies your cost goes up and so on.

I do not know if your ignorance is on purpose or if you just do not know how business works.

Health CARE costs are going up yet you all expect insurance rates to stay flat. It is actually pretty comical.

Because Obamacare sets a minimum of what your insurance has to be. Millions do not meet the min standard. But are completely happy with their current insurance.

That's not true... if you have insurance and you keep it, you will not have to change. Unless your corp changes, you change, etc - like always then it changes.

The Fed insurance is not more expensive, it never has been for anyone, ever... if WE covered 100% of Medicare out of our pockets, we would be paying a SHIIIITIITTITITTTT to more, trillions and trillions more.

Yep, Maine got it a partial waiver because the Insurance companies already pay X amount per dollar on 'everyone' in the State. The waiver doesn't exempt the state from Coverage - they still have to provide every State citizen with coverage.

You are being dishonest again. Millions of people will have their insurance coverage changed because the feds are forcing companies to change their policies. Well unless you have Obama in your pocket then you get waivers. Which will make the cost of their business go up, which will make the product they produce to go up, which will lead to more out of pocket expense for the tax payer.

Insurance companies set the rates the Hospitals can charge... at that technology gets cheaper over time, in every business aspect in the world, other than American Healthcare. Our rates stay high because insurance companies keep EVERY cost high.

I've lived in a Socialized Country before, so your idea of how this can and does work, is greatly incorrect.

I never said insurance rates would remain flat, I said if they go up it's insurance companies 100% doing it, and that's a fact.

Dishonest? How about we stick to actual facts you can backup rather than repeating talking point memos that have been debunked a 100 times over?

It is an outright lie. Because he is forcing companies to change their healthcare polices and in turn forcing people who liked their insurance to be changed. Their companies will either pass the extra expense to the worker or the buyer of their products.

Debunked? Your opinion is no debunking. But basic economics 101 pretty much is fact.

Yup working great

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11579979

Socialism it works really!

Does that prove it doesn't work? Not at all... it has actually worked GREAT! And it works great in most Countries with it.

Is it perfect? Hell no... is it cheaper than what we have, GREATLY!

Well it is not cheaper. Because to keep their current system they would need to increase their taxes another 40%+. Just raise taxes and everything would be ok right? It actually failed quite quickly. :1orglaugh

The entire US healthcare debacle is/was a joke. In my mind, without a public option, that bill is somewhat useless. You either need to nationalize health care, or at the very least, allow the government to administer its own insurance plan within the free market. Why so much fear in allowing the government to compete with the free market? Other than the fact Republicans are busy sucking the cocks of their corporate masters, of course.

Medicare / Medicaid has a 3 - 4% overhead, whereas private insurers have a 30 - 35% overhead. Why not allow the government to compete in that market? Government can offer its own plan, probably at 20% discounted rates than others, forcing the competition to lower their own rates. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but nope, can't have that in the US.

I remember when the debate was going on, a survey was taken in Canada, asking if people like socialized health care, or would prefer the American privatized system. A resounding amount of Canadians, around 95%, said they were happy with the socialized health care, and didn't want a privatized system. I could be wrong, but I would imagine the same would go for Scandanvian and Western European countries as well.

No part of what you said is basic economics 101... it's all talking point trash.

The only close thing you got right was some companies paying more, yeah companies with over 100 staff, not covering people, will have to pay more.

And hey, if we're all playing on the same equal playing ground, doesn't that give the free market a better chance? Oh, snap!

You, me, and the majority of small companies in America, won't have to pay shit, we never qualify.

^You are talking about countries smaller than a lot of our STATES. Of course if you ask a child if it likes getting free candy or having to work for it they will pick the free candy. That is what children do.

For what it is worth I am not sticking up for insurance companies. I think insurance should be illegal so a real free market could be created. Not what we have now where you can only buy insurance from your state so there is a closed system, helping the costs to go up.

That's false and made up from thin air....

Nope price controls have been prove to fail over and over again. Man you must have never taken any economic classes. Man you really are misinformed.

From thin air? :1orglaugh If you are slashing the government by 40% how much would you need to increase taxes by? It is just using a little bit of quick logic. However, you may are right, the number is probably higher. Since they are not cutting taxes just spending.

It makes no difference what the population is... that's simply more people paying and less people using, it always balances out.

The free market is a bogus ideal that doesn't really exist, anywhere... you know that right? Other than the ability to do business, but outside of that everything is locked up and has been for a 200+ years. If you want to start an insurance company, have at it... your % of success is the same if you opened an adult company, no market is truly free anymore and will never be again.

Looks like you failed economics 101 then.

If the Gov slashes by 40% and reduces 60% saving 20% then effectively they've made up enough numbers out of thin air to confuse us all.

You really think price controls work? Ok I'm done here because there is no hope of a debate is possible because the foundation is started with a distortion of reality.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PriceControls.html

Population # itself doesn't matter, but percentages do. Sure, the US has a much larger population, but also has a much larger GDP, and many more tax payers.

I'd say just move to nationalized health care, like the rest of the modern Western world. Obviously Medicare is working quite well, because nobody seems to complain about that. The only complaint you see is at Republican rallies where old ladies are holding up signs saying, "Government, keep your hands off my Medicare!"

So why not expand that to the entire US population? Everyone pays say $50/month, gets a health care card, and free access to all the health care they need. All of a sudden, everyone from say 16 - 54 years old is paying $50/month into system, which will drastically reduce the liquidity problems Medicare currently has. An average 21yo only needs medical attention once a year, if that.

But nah, fuck all that. The Republicans want to make teaches the scapegoats instead, and try to cut their salaries. I don't quite have the words to describe how moronic that is.

^Because the private sector (those who have insurance/paying cash) have been subsidizing the costs of medicare/aid thus distorting the savings of medicare/aid and helping inflate the price of insurance/cash buys.

edit: Because medicare/aid does not pay the hospital enough to even cover the COST