Why don't you want healthcare reform? You think our system of paying 3 times more than all other top countries pay, for less value, and lower life expectancies, is not in need of repair?

Remember, Obama's plan was originally a Republican plan, that they were happy with, until a Democrat re-introduced it.

The right also had a history of relying on the CBO to bolster their argument. That is, until the Obama's administration used the CBO to show how the new healthcare system can save money.

And semi-unrelated, I really DO pay attention to media that I do not agree with, including watching Fox once in a while. 90% of the time what I see and hear on the right simply serves to reinforce my liberal position on most things, but maybe 10% of the time my eyes are opened to an alternate perspective.

Did you REALLY watch the documentary that began this post, or did you just jump in with talking points, assumed to be contrarian to what you THINK the document says? Be honest....

Again, it is clear that you did not watch the documentary this thread was made to highlight, before adding to the thread. Deregulation related positions are covered in the video.

No, we cant. We cannot afford what we have now.......without some serious reform. The budget needs to be looked at as a whole but that is not the way it is done in congress it seems. They look at each little area and argue about it. We could theoretically increase spending in some areas while making deep cuts in spending in others and come up with a balanced budget. But no one on the hill is willing to do that, its all buzz words and catch phrases. Lets see who can score points while not doing any of the hard work of governing. All while China continues to support our misbehavior and the Fed continues to devalue the dollar.

Other countries lead us in services for their citizens with a higher standard of living then we have. But Americans seem to think that the boogieman of big government automatically means socialism and a loss of freedom while nothing could be further from the truth. Higher taxes can be balanced with more services and an increased level of happiness in our country. I love this country but it seems that today people live in fear, resentment and suspicion of their fellow Americans.... If you're not with us, then you're against us mentality.

Look at GFY as a microcosm of the American society (sorry non-American folks, no offense intended) when there is a discussion here it inevitably turns into a name calling bonanza with nothing of real value being said and everyone trying to outdo the next. The exact same behavior (with a little less honesty) is played out daily in the House, the Senate and on the political opinion shows on both sides.

said plainly, America on the whole needs to mature. We have two much power and influence across the globe to keep acting like children :2 cents:

I started to watch it, but then drifted to almost sleeping
We need reform, not obamacare

I'm sure they are, so why can't you aswer the question?

Exactly, so fix what we have before adding more to fix later

I am for cutting regulation for some industries/businesses and increased regulation for others. Yes, I support regulating industries and anyone that doesn't isn't looking at the issue realistically.

Noone is for causing problems for businesses unnecessarily. If that is what you think that regulation is then you don't understand it's basic purpose.

As far as these Tea Party organizations are concerned, the difference between the rhetoric that these guys use and the actual actions that ultimately get taken is a HUGE divide. I have attended quite a few Tea Party events... I live right down the street from one of the biggest "We The People" organizers in North Carolina. I go to them because I have found that, for the most part, these people generally share the same beliefs that I do when you get into the specifics (as far as policy issues)... but the organizers and the politicians that come and drum up support at these events DO NOT get specific. They only use these general terms. They have a totally different agenda than the people who are there supporting them and THEY KNOW IT. They are not educating people on the issue... they are having a pep rally.

99% of the time, the majority of the people attending the events to support the "Tea Party Agenda" are not even close to educated on the issue they are rallying about... and that is the truth of the matter. There is no better example than seeing a senior holding a sign that says "Keep the government out of my Medicare!".

If you really want to know the truth... if I didn't care about the scrutiny involved... I would start my own political organization and I am here to tell you that it's not that hard. However, considering my background and taking my family into consideration... I am not going to subject them to that scrutiny.

Can you tell me what you think "ObamaCare" contains? What is it about it that you don't like... please make a list.

Funny, I was just having this same exact conversation with my wall.

Vendzilla or wall? - Turns out the argument ends exactly the same, either way!

What do you think, wall?....

Reform = Regulation
Regulation = Bad
Bad = Obamacare
Obamacare = Reform

I can't help that people believe what any politician says, I don't trust anyone in politics anymore, but you have to appluad ay organization that stirs up the coon person to question the government and it's use of our tax dollars

2300 pages

1. Premiums Have Gone Up: Obama promised that families will pay less for their healthcare premiums under his plan. Quite the opposite has happened. Insurance companies are making double-digit rate increases to consumer premiums in anticipation of the cost of new mandates by ObamaCare.

2. You Can?t Keep Your Current Plan And Doctor: Businesses will be forced to change their employees? healthcare plans in order to meet the new regulations. An estimated 69% of businesses will be forced to change their plans, forcing countless millions of Americans to change plans and doctors.

3. National Budget Deficit Is Worse: Sixty-one percent (61%) of all voters nationwide say the healthcare law will increase the federal deficit.

4. More Children Are Uninsured: Anthem Blue Cross, Aetna Inc. and other insurance agencies are dropping child-only policies, citing huge, unexpected costs from ObamaCare. An estimated half a million children in the United States will be affected by the policies.

5. Small Business Taxes Increased: Small businesses?the engine of the U.S. economy?are suffering from increased tax filing regulations and anticipated healthcare mandates. Over 40 million small businesses will be required to file new tax reports for health care. The tax credit for the regulations only covers one-tenth of these business?s losses.

6. Small Businesses Health Care Burden Increased: Almost half of all smaller employers are anticipating ?significant increases in healthcare costs in the short term.? These business owners are likely to cut back on hiring and expansion because they fear a new healthcare burden.

7. More Government Spending: The Congressional Budget Office has already adjusted the cost for ObamaCare since it passed, adding another $115 billion to the taxpayer?s tab. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has adjusted upwards its cost prediction since the bill took effect from 6.1% per year to 6.3%. By 2019, U.S. spending on health care will reach $4.6 trillion.

8. Senior Citizens Suffer from Medicare Cuts: The Medicare Advantage program which covers nearly a quarter of seniors will cut plans from $3-$5,000 per beneficiary. Doctors are refusing to take seniors because Medicare only covers part of their bills.

9. Minorities Get Worse Health Care: ObamaCare forces 16 million Americans into Medicaid, a poorly performing welfare program. The President considers moving Hispanic and blacks into Medicaid an improvement in their healthcare. No one else does.

10. Democrats Losing Elections: Current polls show that 61% of likely voters want the bill repealed and the Tea Party movement has demonstrated America?s anger toward ObamaCare. The primaries this summer have shown that Americans are voting for members of congress who will repeal Obamacare.

Here's a few things, but have you seen how many compnaies and unions are opting out of the new law?

So instead of coments, you have insults, do you suffer from Phronemophobia? Don't, involve yourself in the conversation!!!

You mean this conversation, that I started?

I answered you, sorry you have no rebuttal but talking about the wall thing.


Phronemophobia is curable

Not because of Obamacare they haven't... they were planned increases laid out over 5 years ago.

You can keep your Doctor if you keep your current insurance. Like anytime you switch insurance, you may have to change Doctors.

That means 69% of the businesses with 50+ employees, don't offer coverage at all or only part coverage. So yeah, when they "upgrade" to full coverage or from no insurance to insurance, they'll have to change doctors.

Now for those really small companies, they get a tax break.. I wonder what % of companies have less than 25 employees or are self employed people.... shit tons!

AND States actually regulate this based on the law, you should read it one day.


61% of the people are confused... healthcare would have 'already' added to the federal deficit, Obamacare added "less" than doing nothing.


That's because it's now mandatory to cover them, thus they don't need that 'category' and make it look like a loss. This is nothing but pure corporate spin.


I had to file another tax paper last year, it about broke the nation. Another box on my w2 isn't going to kill me.

The tax credit is for small business, the smaller the business / pay structure, the better cut they get and the bigger they are, the less they get. So in the scale of things, it 'appears' it only covers 1/10th, but the reality is it covers all small business and scales up.


What is a smaller employer? People under 50 staff wont see anything hit them, those with under 25 will get a credit... really it's the 100+ that the Burden starts to hit, and more so the bigger you are.

So who are these companies with 100+ staff, with 'zero' insurance that are going to have this burden hit them. A company with 100 staff pays out about 5 million a year in wages. If they 'refuse to cover ever staff member', the State/Fed will cover them, and the company will be fined $75k a year or $750 per.

Roughly 1.5 more staff a year to cover the fine... yeah probably going to brake those 100+ staffer companies right in half.


And without the bill, it would have been higher.

How are doctors refusing to take something that hasn't started and actually is covered a different way? Very odd to say the least.


Is that because the poor are minorities or something? Because the video of the free care tents had a shit ton of white people in them, unclean, out in the open, getting medical help - I have a feeling people with no coverage are okay with shitty coverage.


That's because the media filled the people with shit tons of lies that are now coming out and back firing on them.


This has been explained to you several times... The Corp, Insurance Company and Major Corps/Unions have worked for decades to get the benefit layout they have, costing Companies/Unions/The Fed billions in legal fights already. To them it's not insurance, it's everything... from people they can't cover (ie why they got the waiver) part time people, 401k benefits, retirement, sick days, etc, etc, etc.... it's not "insurance" it's an entire system that every penny helps balance the other parts out.

I get this, like I get the back of my hand, I truly don't understand why this eludes you so much.

It is a "comprehensive" bill... so yes it deals with alot of different things and that is why it's 2300 pages... most "comprehensive" bills are alot of pages.

Actually, he said that the premiums would go up in the short term and they haven't started the exchange yet... this is why.

Actually, this is false... you can keep your current plan. The only reason an employer would have to change plans is if the plan they currently have doesn't meet the minimum standard of coverage... such as the case of many Restaurant companies that offer plans where you pay $800/year, have high deductibles/copays and can only claim a maximum benefit of $1000/year or something similar... and btw... those numbers are from an actual plan that was offered to my daughter by the restaurant she works at.

There is no credible evidence that the bill increases the deficit at all. Almost all of the CBO estimates say it will save money over the long term... the majority of the money in the short term is to set up the exchange and handle administration costs. If you can show me an example, I am more than willing to look at it with an open mind and study up on it.

You should check out this video - http://charlotte.news14.com/content/...e-reform---you

The reason they are dropping those plans is because of the pre-existing conditions clause. They anticipated that and it's why they increased funding for SCHIP.

If you are referring to the 1099 issue, I know that this is on the table for change... I seem to remember hearing that it was already fixed but I may be mistaken... at any rate it is supposed to be fixed.

Obama has taken quite a few steps to offset that cost including passing the small business bill not to long ago when they extended the Bush tax cuts... Republicans filibustered a bill that the administration offered earlier to accomplish the same goal.

I haven't read about this so I shouldn't comment on it.

Actually, this is somewhat misleading. What really happened is that Medicare Advantage paid doctors more than Medicare by an average of 13%. The bill just made the payments equal and didn't reduce any benefits. What they did was take that extra money and use it to close the "doughnut hole" to reduce out of pocket costs to seniors.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The idiot that wrote that (because I know you copy and pasted this mess) should be slapped.

Propaganda is a bitch...

At least he did something as opposed to the repubs that had years to do something but didn't. No, it may not be "perfect" but at least it's something and can be built upon.

Actually, let me amend what I said... I got to thinking about the 2300 pages bit... I read the bill online and it's not 2300 pages.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111...t?version=ocas

here's a list of those that have opted out of Obamacare

1.Bricklayers Local 1 of MD, VA and DC
2.International Brotherhood of Trade Unions Health and Welfare Fund - Local 713
3.Local 1102 Amalgamated Welfare Fund
4.Local 1102 Health & Benefit Fund
5.Local 1102 Welfare Fund– Lerner Employees
6.Local 338 Affiliated Benefit Funds
7.Operating Engineers Local 835 Health and Welfare Fund
8.Retail, Wholesale & Dept. Store Union Local 1034 Welfare Fund
9.United Food and Commercial Workers Union in Mount Laurel, New Jersey
10.Indiana Teamsters Health Benefits Fund
11.Service Employees International Union Local 1 Cleveland Welfare Fund
12.Southern CA Pipe Trades Trust Fund
13.Teamsters Local 522 Welfare Fund Roofers Division
14.Texas Carpenters and Millwrights Health and Welfare Fund
15.United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1445 New Hampshire
16.Amalgamated National Health Fund
17.Plumbers and Pipefitters Local No. 630 Welfare Fund
18.United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1000
19.1199SEIU Greater New York Benefit Fund
20.Cleveland Bakers Teamsters
21.DC Cement Masons Welfare Fund
22.Indiana Teamsters Health Benefits Fund
23.Laundry and Dry Cleaning Workers Local No. 52
24.Social Service Employees Union Local 371
25.United Food and Commercial Workers Union (Mount Laurel, NJ)
26.United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1459
27.United Food and Commercial Workers and Participating Employers Interstate Health and Welfare Fund
28.Laborers’ International Union of North America Local Union No. 616 Health and Welfare Plan
29.Service Employees Benefit Fund
30.UFCW Allied Trade Health & Welfare Trust
31.United Food and Commercial Workers Union Local 1995
32.IBEW No.915
33.Asbestos Workers Local 53 Welfare Fund
34.Florida Trowel Trades
35.Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 123 Welfare Fund
36.UFCW Local 227
37.UFCW Maximus Local 455
38.Local 25 SEIU
39.UFCW Local 1262
40.Local 802 Musicians Health Fund
41.Greater Metropolitan Hotel
42.Local 17 Hospitality Benefit Fund
43.GS-ILA
44.Health and Welfare Benefit System
45.I.U.P.A.T.
46.Transport Workers
47.UFT Welfare Fund
48.PMPS-ILA
49.PS-ILA

49 Corps/Groups/Orgs/Funds that don't fully cover everyone or cover them equally but do offer insurance though, all of them! And have very little room to move money around being that they all overly compensate at every corner... Very smart of the Gov to allow the opt outs, it would have cost billions in tax dollars to restructure those deals.

LOL, they opted out after reading the new law and found out they were going to have to change their insurance,

see reason # 2

They wouldn't have to change insurance at all, unless they totally dropped what they have now, just like if the Corp changed insurance companies under any situation.

What they found is they would have to cover part time people fully (they're already partly covered), making them cut back the benefits of the full time people, which is contracted in and signed by each person and the corp. Ie: major legal issues.

The difference is, a private corp like mine or who you work for, can change insurance companies anytime they like, benefits any way they like, and you can't say or do anything about it, other than refuse it and pay yourself... With the union, those people, those related corps cant change ANYTHING unless they ALL agree on it.

The #1 lesson from all of the political discussions I have participated in: Even if you prove a conservative wrong they will still insist they are right... why? Logic and facts don't have anything to do with their positions. :2 cents:

Ron Paul started the grassroots tea party. It was then taken over by these people.

The Broke mans Tea Party

But Barry said they didn't have to change anything, they will have to change to be able to afford the changes in the very law that said they will not have to change

I'm more middle of the road than people give me credit, But I will never see how the present plan can save money, given how our government works

Unfortunately this "debating-with-the-wall" scenario just keeps playing out, over and over.

Here's a earlier post, discussing why people continue to vote against their own best interests...

https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/1016939-people-vote-own.html

I'm here to discuss, you're the one that ran out of steam

I loved Ron Paul during the debates. I hope he runs again.

No, he never said nobody would have to change anything... he said if you have insurance / have it provided for you, you won't have to change anything, and he is correct.


You're way to focused on the present plan rather than working to improve the present plan for tomorrow. That's how WE can make it work - but bitching about it, will never make it work.

And our Gov doesn't do everything bad... it's easy to think they do, but the reality is they do some things very damn well.

He announced he would make an official announcement within a month.

Rep. Ron Paul to announce presidential campaign decision soon

Read more: http://www.thestatecolumn.com/articl...#ixzz1JRlRgleQ

Ron Paul can beat Barack Obama in 2012! If the elections were held today, Ron Paul would gain 41% of the vote compared to Obama’s 42% – statistical dead heat. Among independents, Paul has an astonishing 47% to 28% edge over the president.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2012-ron-paul/ronpaul2012/

Not steam - patients. There's a big difference.

I start a thread about a documentary - you admit that you didn't even bother watching it - but this didn't stop you from adding your 2 cents here anyway.

Why bother spending time debating anything, when the other side doesn't care to objectively assess the information?

Regurgitated talking points, and copy-and-paste lists from sites that already agree with your position, is not all there is to a debate.

We all do it, and it's fine, but when that is the extent of the argument, then we have two walls communicating with no one.

If you watched the documentary, and wanted to debate information that was presented, cool - but to argue here, in a post about a documentary that you didn't even bother to watch?

A food critic that reviews a restaurant that he's never eaten at, is not a food critic.

I said I started to watch it, you say I didn't watch it, are you watching me?

The food critic "started going to the restaurant" too, but as he never made it, he hardly knows what their food is like.

what he said was
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it; if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor


So you're saying we have a shit turd of a law, but after time and polishing it,, we'll have a shiny turd?

because he smelled it? LMAO

Okay, that was kind of funny - but with all of the time you've spent arguing here, you could have easily watched the documentary.

Who knows... if you open your mind to alternative viewpoints, perhaps you'll learn a bit about how you're getting bamboozled.

Or maybe you won't, but at least you'll have more information to pull from for future debates.

Exactly.... if you like your healthcare plan you have, you can keep it, you wouldn't change doctors, he is correct. Like if your Corp provides insurance and keeps what they have, you have to change nothing and neither does the Corp.

If they only cover part of it and pay the fine, you still keep the part insurance you have - nothing changes. If the Company drops you or you drop the insurance company, then you have no healthcare plan and yeah, your doctors would 'always' change unless you pay for the same insurance you had - which is exactly like today.


No, you think it sucks so I'm suggesting you work to change it.. I love it, very few things I would change about it. Most changes I would make, would be more aggressive and a shit ton of regulation.

Do you think all those unions that opted out are going to keep their insurance with no changes? I doubt it, the unions will not be able to afford it
Change it by throwing it out and starting over with both parties involved

Tell me one thing, was it based on one persons point of view with facts he found to back it up?

LMAO

Other than contracted changes? Yep... 100% sure it will stay the same.

This is a Republican healthcare bill.... if you start over, you're going to get the same bill. And you will never 100% agree with every part of the bill, no mater who creates it.

I have to ask who told you it was a republican healthcare law, they voted against it, was it the democrats that told you that? Or are you saying the democrats copied the gop version? That I would buy, but the end result was it was pushed down the throats of the voters

Even if it is, needs to be scraped, even if it was a good bill it would have to be scraped, it didn't get sold to the American people as a good law

The video is not one sided, like you're thinking.... he makes some very good points with many facts throughout. And he doesn't "attack" a side, he actually sides with the people and the passion they have, ie: the Tea Party people.

What he does is show how it was started by the people then taken from the people, spun into a corporate agenda and spit back out for the people to feed on with a different message. Then he shows how/why/where it's happening, the history, connections, and all types of stuff that mostly public information.

You should watch it...

Umm... It's damn near the same bill proposed from them years before, it's damn near a copy of Massachusetts's healthcare bill, which works WITHOUT QUESTION and was created by a Republican.

Of course they voted against it.... even if it was perfect, they would have voted against it.

And bullshit, the American people loved it, screamed for it.. Then the far extreme right and media twisted it into so many lies nobody knew wtf to believe (even supporters). But now that the bullshit is starting to settle down and people are starting to see it's not bad.

You're joking right???? :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh Like that could ever happen.

I'll tell you this, I was for healthcare reform and after the thing Pelosi said about we'll know whats it it after we sign it, I knew we were fucked.
I also saw how they added the school reform to get the numbers to look better for the CBO. That and the lie Barry said about letting a bill pass on it's own merit, pissed off everyone!
Thats and all the spending going on and nothing to show for it that soured the healthcare bill for the public, not the evil right wing media, the democrats just made it easy

Reagan got it to happen when he worked with the democrats to raise the SSN tax

Clinton got it to happen working with the gop to reform welfare

Obama got a nobel peace prize for showing up and hasn't worked with anyone but his own party and I think some of them got strongarmed

She's a dumb cunt... not Obama. If you hate a side because of one dumb bitch, then you must hate everyone.

The school reform shit is kick ass and greatly needed. I know a shit ton of teachers and they are damn happy this is coming down, they are very pissed at the Bush system.

I'm very glad a President finally had the balls to stand up and do something for the Americans rather than pretend like they would, no part of me is mad / upset that he forced it through.

The spending was just another right wing bullshit twist, that they actually created years before and Obama corrected. And that, that didn't burnt he bill, the right wing media bullshit totally did it, without question. Every time someone speaks against it, it's almost always a bullshit talking point like the list you posted above.

That says... other times parties worked with each other, and this time one party blocked the other out - which we know without question the Republicans did being that they stated they would do exactly this, no mater what they're voting on.

it wasn't that the school reform was bad, they had to use it to show that the whole bill would save money to get it passed, with out it, it would have not passed because of the vote.

I hope the law gets defunded and the history books show what a lame president he really is.