I agree regarding tolerance but Read up on history. Cordova and other Arab and Muslim kingdoms were very tolerant of religious diversity and fostered the sciences. While Europe was stuck in the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was having its Golden Age.

When they lost that tolerance, it coincided with their decline. In the West, once Protestant Europe got out of Catholicism's shadow and impelemented tolerance and equality under the law, their economies blew up -- compare protestant and catholic countries in Europe, even now. There's a pattern here. Tolerance and the ability to choose freedome from dogma is the key to progress.

Unless, of course, you have a woman with you. I went to Egypt several years ago and while most of the people were very friendly to us I think much of it was simply because we were tourist. However, I did spend a day out with just a cab driver and myself and did meet a lot of cool people who were nice to me.

That said there were two situations that stuck out in my mind. One afternoon we all went to a market. Our tour guide told us that women can't be alone. There were some women who were traveling without guys and the guide said they need to group up so they are with a man or they could have some problems.

The last night I was there a bunch of us went out to smoke the hookah pipe and celebrate the end of our vacation. It took us nearly an hour to find a hookah place that would allow women and they made us sit outside.

So you are welcome and part of the party, unless you have a vagina.

How do we Americans oppress them? We do help fund their government through various ways mostly through the purchase of oil, but it is their leadership that chooses to oppress us. Do you think the President of the US is telling the leaders of Saudi Arabia to treat its citizens like dogs?


[/QUOTE]Anyone who has gone to the Middle East and isn't an American will agree with me, hands down the nicest people on Earth. The lack of tolerance for anything different? They have diverse cultures there, Christians living alongside Muslims for the longest time with no problems. Sunni and Shiite isn't the giant issue you think it is, it's blown way out of proportion in the media and is as much a feud as is the Orthodox Christian vs Catholic thing and that's really not an issue around here, is it?

Arabs have been living in the center of the world for the history of mankind. They are very tolerant, look at all the people that go to Dubai. Historically Arabs have always been very welcoming and friendly people, known throughout the world as hospitable and courteous. It is only recently that people have been fed this 'Arabs are monsters' idea so that they don't feel so bad about murdering them by the thousands.[/QUOTE]

There has been nothing but unrest, violence and problems in that part of the world since the beginning of written history. Herodotus wrote about the unrest around 450 BC and it hasn't stopped. It seems to me like the Arab states mostly hate each other, but they all agree to hate Israel, but if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow they would go right back to fighting each other.

That part of the world has known nothing but blood in the sand since the beginning of time. I'm not saying they a warmongers, but I don't think they are as peaceful as you might think.

In the end this is true. A lot of middle eastern people that I have known in my life just want to be happy. They want to live their lives, raise their families and be successful.

Christians DO live peacefully in the Middle East.

And I don't know how you don't recall Christians shooting Muslims, isn't that what you guys are doing there right now?

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

The only intolerance in the world is American intolerance of other people.

WOW! that is a pretty bold statement and a completely ignorant one.

We Americans are often intolerant. I won't disagree with that. But we are not the only ones. There is plenty of intolerance in the middle east from both sides.

Yes, damn them for wanting to protect women. In some places in the world the idea that American women are strutting around with their tits hanging out and their asses sticking out is disgusting. Do you think when Egyptian people come to America they ask the women to cover up? Of course not, they understand that in different places there are different cultures. Just like they don't agree with the way you guys treat women, it doesn't mean that you guys are doing it wrong and they are right. It's just two different ways of doing things.

The idea there isn't to keep the women from enjoying themselves, it's to keep them out of situations where they would be tempted to do bad things. It's either that, or enjoy the 50% divorce rate and the loss of any family structure like is happening in America. Men are treated the same way, and they are supposed to lower their gaze if a woman comes by that isn't their wife. It's just about keeping out of bad situations so that you don't even need to resist temptation, you just keep it away altogether.


You guys just supported a dictator for 30 years in Egypt by funding him and supporting him even though it was widely known that his elections were fraudulent and he didn't allow any opposition. He wouldn't have been able to do it without the aid from the United States keeping him in power.

Then there's the ex-leader of Tunisia that you guys supported and funded, when you guys put a dictator into Iran, when you guys fund and support Israel. All ways that the US has helped oppress the Arab people.

And that draws a stark contrast to what part of the world that has been peaceful? The whole world has been 'nothing but unrest, violence and problems' since the beginning of written history. To say that because throughout history England was always involved in wars means that now the British couldn't be civilized and live in peace would be ridiculous. Why are Arabs any different than the British?


:)

Thailand catered to the Arab countries and they have been POURING in. What was once a single Arab street in my city has turned into Arabs and businesses catering to Arabs all over town now. They spread like a virus.

The Arabs who are coming here are rude, loud, obnoxious, and they smell. They beat on the Thai girls and will literally just try to push you out of the way to cut in front of you at 7-11. The Thais love to kick their ass because they are such assholes.

With that said, I've met some cool and laid back Arabs over the years. It just seems that the bulk of them are dicks.

Side note, the one Arab street they all started on here has many unofficial names... Soi Arab, Soi Bin Ladin, Dirka Dirka Dirka Street, and Arab Alley.

There is a difference between people in the Middle East being intolerant of Americans because of their decades of meddling in the Middle East and Americans being intolerant of everyone just because they aren't Americans.

Which is very much the case. Mexicans - you guys hate them. Canadians - those fucking socialists. French - fuck the French those are Freedom Fries. Chinese - they are trying to take us over. Russians - fucking communists. Japanese - fucking Japs.

No other country in the world just lays down a general blanket of hate like the United States does.

Can you really expect anyone decent to move to where you live though? How many Americans you meet there that are what you want people to think of your average American?

And they think it's bullshit that you weren't raped by a priest growing up. And that you don't fuck your sister daily right after you wank off your dad.

You see how sometimes the stereotypes that people think of you aren't always correct. Americans fail to see that their stereotype in the rest of the world is a bunch of fat, dumb, incestuous hicks who know nothing more than being raped by their priests and shooting off their guns. Is that really the truth? You can't feed me the bullshit that most of you haven't fucked your sisters or been raped by a priest because that is complete bullshit.

You see what I did there? Don't be a dummy and use stereotypes to make up your image of people because you might be shocked if someone used a stereotype to make up an image of you.

The people in the Middle East are a million times nicer and more welcoming than Americans. They are much more tolerant of different people and while the United States' founders were off raping their slave girls, the Middle East didn't see blacks as any different than anyone else and they were equals. You guys not only hate each other but are afraid of each other and treat each other with suspicion. And that's what you do to your fellow Americans. With foreigners you guys think that somehow because they aren't from America that somehow you guys are better than they are or they wish they were you.


Wait so 60 years of meddling doesn't give the Middle East the right to hate America, but just one attack on the US by a stateless group gives Americans carte blanche to go in and kill Arabs and Muslims as they see fit? Laughable.

hey, folks are free to hate whomever they want, i've never said otherwise. but the 2nd post in this thread made out the uprising to be a result of some sort of revelation by muslims that they are being controlled by u.s. that's not the case.

And what about the women in Saudi Arabia who got gang raped by several men. The men got a slap on the wrist and she got sent to jail and was sentenced to 90 lashes because she was out in public with a man who was not a relative. Is that keeping her safe and protecting her?

for that matter women in Saudi Arabia are banned for traveling alone. Again is this to protect them? Should they not be able to go to the store and do the family shopping without a chaperon?

I'm not saying that the US is perfect in treatment of women, but take some time to look up the human rights violations that occur against women en mass in the middle east.You are choosing to look at it through rose colored glasses.

If a man taking a sticking and beating his wife like a dog because she didn't listen to him is simply a cultural difference than I guess I am an arrogant American because I think that is wrong. Forcing a woman to cover her entire body if she doesn't want to is wrong. not allowing women to be educated is wrong. These are basic human rights and they are violated every day in the middle east.[/QUOTE]

So a person is not allowed to think for themselves because they might find that the grass really is greener when they they get do what they want, not what they are told to do?

I understand religious and social customs, but should a person not be able to chose who they want to marry and how they want to live their lives? This is nothing more than the establishment and leadership simply oppressing the people and telling them how to live and deciding for them what will make them happy.


I suppose we can argue this for a while, but it really will go nowhere. We may sometimes support dicators for the good of our country or our interests and I won't defend that act, we shouldn't be doing it. But I doubt we tell them to kill, rape, maim and imprison their people.



They are not. You make my point for me. Your claim is that arabs are peaceful and want nothing more than to live in peace with the rest of the world. I simply pointed out that this is not the case and there has been unrest in that area forever. But as you say, there is unrest all around the globe. We humans are prone to this. We often solve our problems with violence and we are often intolerant of those who are not like us. The people of the middle east are no different.

No, there is no difference between why Americans or middle easterns are intolerant. I grew up in a small redneck town and for the most part everyone I ever met told me that Russians were dirty thieving communists. I also, literally, didn't speak to a black person until I was 16. Not because I was a racist, but because there were none in the town I grew up in. There were a lot of people from that town that then hated blacks and Russians yet had never really known either and had no reason other than they were taught that way. When they get out into the world many people choose to not learn for themselves and re-evaluate how they feel so they hold onto that prejudice they were taught as a child.

There is such a lack of education in many of these countries in the middle east that the only option some people have is schools that will teach them to read and write, but will also teach them to hate Americans. They, like us, are also taught by their parents. Unlike us, many of them have no outside information to help them change that opinion. So they don't really hate us because they see us as oppressive and have first had knowledge of it.They hate us because they were taught to hate us and they were told since the day they were born how evil and horrible we are and that we are to blame for any problems they have. They have no information to offset that so they have no way of knowing that it isn't correct.

Moeloubani is an ignorant Palestinian...as most can see from his posts...and ignorant people are not aware that they are ignorant. I used to respond to him from time to time because he seemed to be reasonably articulate...and it took me awhile to realize that he is ignorant so I dismissed him as I try to avoid responding to ignorant people.

That never happened, gang rape is illegal in every country in the Middle East.

I'm all for democracy and people setting their own rules. I just hate the idea that just because the way someone else does something makes me feel uncomfortable that I have to associate what they are doing with being wrong.

That's the way they do things there and in a lot of ways the way we do things here are disgusting to them. How can we let women be reduced to nothing more than sex objects? They would ask us. How come the United States celebrates women for their beauty but pretty much nothing else?

Of course they could work on some things. But so could we. But we (western world) would never change our ways because someone in Saudi Arabia thinks they are wrong, to us that's just silly even though we expect the same of them.

Yeah but Russians aren't dirty. The United States IS supporting the oppression of the Arab people. There is a huge difference between something based on nothing and something based on something very real. You are allowed to hate something that is out to do you harm.

Hey you're allowed your own opinion of me, but let me thank you for referring to me as a Palestinian. :)

Don't get me wrong man I don't think that every single American is so hateful but you guys honestly do have lots of hate floating around there. Like Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck and every other public figure. :/

I was not 100% correct. here is the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7106234.stm

A woman was raped by 7 men. The men who did the raping were sentenced to lashes and sentences ranging from 10 months to 5 years in jail. . . in short (at least to me) pretty much a slap on the wrist.

The woman was sentenced 200 lashes and 6 months in prison because at the time of the rape she was alone in private with a man who was not a relative. After pressure that was put on the king and led by the US oppressor Hillary Clinton the king pardoned her.

That sounds like a loving, caring kind of place to me.

Here is another.
http://wn.com/saudi_woman_sentenced_to_lashing
a 75 year old Syrian woman who was living in Saudi Arabia was sentenced to 40 lashes, four months in prison and was deported out of the country simply for having two unrelated men in her house.


here is another
http://trueslant.com/nealungerleider...tim-100-times/

A Filipino woman working in Saudi Arabia was raped by a co-worker. She pressed charges against the guy who did it. She was sentenced to 100 lashes for having sex out of wedlock because in Saudi Arabia all sex out of wedlock - including rape - is illegal and punishable by jail time or lashings.

Another fantastic little story here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...ne-school.html

here a 13 year old girl had a cell phone at school which was against the rules. She was lashed 90 times in front of her classmates.

But, as you say, I'm sure these are all just situations that are done to protect women from making bad choices or to be tempted into bad things.

Well we probably disagree about what a slap on the wrist is.

1000 lashes of a whip and 5 years in jail to me is a little more than a slap on the wrist, but hey, that's subjective I guess.

I'd say most people when reading what you wrote would have guessed that the girl got all these lashes but the guys got away with it with a slap on the wrist meaning almost nothing. 1000 lashes and 5 years in a Saudi jail for rape? Not a slap on the wrist.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen, I was just pointing out that rape is in fact illegal in the Middle East and that people get more than a 'slap on the wrist' for doing it.

You have to remember that you aren't usually hearing the full story with these articles. For example just recently you remember that Iranian woman that was supposed to be stoned for adultery, when in reality what she was charged with was murder and killing her ex-husband.

Kids are hit with sticks all across the world in school for breaking the rules. Only in North America is it wrong for a teacher to hit a kid, and only for the past couple of generations has it been that way.

That said I don't like countries led by religion and I think that Saudi Arabia could relax their laws a little. But if they have elections that are fair and free and the people vote and the vote comes back that they want to stick with their rules as they are now, it doesn't mean they are barbaric or wrong. It means they are just as right as what is happening in the United States, rules set by the people for the people. It's as simple as that, just because you guys do things one way it doesn't mean every other way is wrong.

I'm not Stereotyping... What I stated is law. Clearly you're uneducated on what happens in the middle east.

Stereotyping would be something like, they all smell like shit because they all use the hand to wipe the ass with. That's not what I did, what I did was state laws all over Middle Eastern Countries.

No I don't see what you did, other than stated stupid shit that isn't relevant.

As an American, I don't care if I'm a bigger asshole, non welcoming jerk.. straight up, fuck off and don't visit douche bag, my welcome mat includes a gun in your face - welcome to America! That's the point of being free....

Btw, if you or any sand jockey thinks all Americans are catholic, then you are all uneducated idiots that are clueless at the entire point of America, and any opinion or stereotype you have is so pointless no American gives a flying fuck.

End of the day, they will still kill a gay, force a girl to marry an old man and live through a life of rape, beat women, force them to do everything or be killed, get stoned, ect, ect, ect... nothing more than savages.

I was simply stating the laws and facts in the US. What I stated was law. Clearly you have no idea what the laws are in your own country.

Btw you seem to give a flying fuck with your angry post. Rawwrrr, me American me angry!! Way to represent and prove me right.

Edit: just saw you added this part.

And at the end of the day you're still just angry about the rape you suffered at the hand of your catholic priest, your catholic mom was abused by her drunk husband who wasn't your dad (even though he and you think they are), your sister is still angry that you got her pregnant, your actual biological dad is gay and now he spends his days sucking shit off of dicks in between his shifts as a garbage man (how he met your mom). To make money your mom prostitutes on the street and enjoys aborting the fetuses at the last moment because its her body and she likes the way it feels.

Isn't that how it is in the US?? You see how stereotypes are usually way off? Please TheDoc, you're embarrassing yourself.

Are you on drugs? What law did you post, at all? And how is a stereotype a fact? You're either completely stupid or high out of your mind.

It's not legal for priests to rape kids in America. However in the middle east, in many countries it is legal for adult men to marry children, and rape them.

I'm not Angry, I'm American.

I don't have a catholic priest or anyone in my family, so I can't relate. Only an idiot would think all Americans are catholic when the Country is built on freedom of religion, exactly what sand jockey's hate.

Again what I stated is laws ... you're trying to make up some lame stereotype to cover up what is law in the middle east.

Don't hate me for giving you the facts, hate the middle east for allowing it.

And this post...in a nutshell...clarifies that you are ignorant...and says a lot about why you are ignorant about so many things.

What needs to really happen in the middle east is a huge sweep up of all children, from birth to 18, and toss them into reeducation camps. It doesn't really make a difference if they still hate americans or not, but someone has to teach them to wipe with toilet paper!

In what countries is it legal for a man to rape a child? You gonna back that up or are you going to be the average American and just talk out of your ass?

The Middle East isn't a country, just saying that something is legal in North American just because it's legal in Mexico doesn't work. Or yet again are you just being the ignorant American?

I don't hate you man! Don't for a second think that. I'm not resorting to calling you racial slurs and things like that (like you to me), I have no hate for you and to be honest I feel sympathy for you that you are so misled. Uneducated people turn out like you all the time ignorant and angry but intelligent people like me hold no hate towards you for something you can't help. I feel sorry for you is all. :(

Iran also has freedom of religion, as does Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and countless other Middle Eastern countries. Please do me a favor and read up about this before you make your next post, I hate feeling so bad for making you look so bad when like I said before, you probably just can't help it.

But wait...

I thought you avoid responding to ignorant people? What's the matter, having a crisis about me? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Edit: LOL I just saw what you mean. You're right how ignorant of me to forget adding you to that list theking. Let me fix the statement:

Rawwwwrrrrrrrrrr I AM AMERICAN!!! FEAR MEEEE!!! Too bad when it comes down to it guys like you are put to shame by skinny little Afghanis on dirt bikes. All talk. LOL :1orglaugh

It's rape when she's forced into the marriage, stop pretending it's okay for children to marry adults.

No shit, that's why I said Middle Eastern Countries, I didn't call it a Country.

Who said some didn't have freedom? Oh you don't like being called a sand jockey - why, not one? Probably like I'm not fat?

That's not a racial slur btw... truly, you're either the worst troll ever or completely stupid. And I'm not being an asshole american, I'm just telling you how it is.

What does that have to do with every single person in the middle east needing to be educating on using shit paper?

:1orglaugh

You mean as opposed to the bidays they use now that are cleaner than toilet paper? You know that actually wash them instead of just spreading the shit around?

As much as I'd love to argue about the different ass wiping techniques used throughout the world, I won't. I just wanted to show you that no matter what you think you can pull from that tiny little brain of yours, I have something to crush it like a tiny ant.

what ?? you sure you are not delusionnal ?:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

So I see you went with the average American and talk out of your ass option. Well done.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Clearly you're either being stupid or pretending it doesn't happen... typical to say the least.

Trust me, you aren't going to get another person from any part of the world to side with you on this. We all know it's true.

I honestly don't give a shit if you wish to deny it.

While it is a punishment, I personally feel rapist should be put away for life or killed.

So you are okay with the victim of the rape being lashed or thrown in prison? You are okay with being the victim of a rape being illegal?

There is a pretty big difference between spanking a kid with stick on the ass a few times or even using a paddle and lashing a kid 90 times. Also, the punishment should fit the crime, that seems extreme to me.

If they have real, true and free elections and that is what they choose for themselves I would be okay with it. But they don't have such a thing. Also, I would want to know these elections are really true and fair and people weren't intimidated into voting for something they don't really want.

Plus, all of that said, I still have a feeling deep down that to live like that would be wrong. A child born into that culture does not choose it, he or she has no choice in the matter. If they are adults and choose that life for themselves, fine, but for a kid to be dropped into a world where they could get raped, the punished for it, is wrong.

They probably do have a lot of bidays in the middle east..... hahahahahaha, bidays.

Obviously I'm not okay with someone being punished for something they had no choice in. And I don't think the punishment is for the actual rape but for getting themselves into the situation (being with strange guys homes etc).

That's what I'm hoping for right now, free and true elections. For the past 30 years for example the elections in Egypt have been rigged, and the people would have risen up earlier if it weren't for the support that Egypt had from the US. That's why I say the US oppresses the Arab people.

Now, I know you have a bad feeling about a child born into that culture. However at the same time, I'm sure there are tons of people out there that have a bad feeling about children born into OUR culture. Does that give them the right to come in and kill us? Of course not! So you are saying children should only be allowed where you say it's okay, but if you say it's not okay then there should be no children allowed there?

Come on man, that's laughable at best. What if the tables were turned, would you be okay with someone saying 'I don't like your culture and I don't think it's fair for babies to be born into it so I'm not going to let you have any babies.'

These are people just like me and you, the same as me and you, with the same rights, the same feelings, the same emotions. There is nothing that makes me and you any different than an Afghani, Egyptian or Chinese person as a human. Don't we all deserve the freedom to choose what we want to do without the interference of others?

Bla bla bla still nothing to back anything up still just talking out of your ass bla bla bla.

You suck at debating TheDoc.

Lol I knew it couldn't have been biday but Google didn't autocorrect me :(

Don't make me go through all you've written and point out your countless grammar mistakes. I didn't know that was what we were doing and I saw sooo many!

.... I want to know, are you sitting here claiming the middle eastern countries do not have under age marriage?

I truly want to know if you're being this big of a douche bag and ignoring an extreme problem through Asia, the Middle East and Africa?

Only a complete shit stain would deny this when you can take seconds and find world orgs setup to help fight it, statistics on it, and crazy amount of information about it?

Truly... what type of person are you?

Point is stain, they don't use a bidet.... you can't even spell it, you've probably never seen one, and you sure as hell have no idea if the people in the middle east, some of the poorest people in the damn world, have one.

I mean come on.... a huge percentage of the population doesn't even have running water and you think they have a damn bidet?

Keep your bullshit to yourself please.

In what country does a large percentage of the population not have running water?

You gonna back yourself up TheDoc? I think you're just making stuff up.

Under what age? You mean according to your customs they are marrying underage, sorry you feel that way but you're going to have to learn the 'religious freedom' you were preaching earlier.

I'm out for the night, was fun ravaging you TheDoc, next time put up a fight will ya?