Question for Videographers

[AaronM]

I'm looking to step away from tape and move to a more storage friendly solution. For those of you who are shooting tapeless, what format did you decide on and why?

I'm also open to camera suggestions as long as they are equal in quality to the Canon XH A1.

Thank you.

[Slutboat]

the new Canon SLR's (T2i, 7D, 5D MKII) absolutely blow away the XH A1 - night and day better video (if you have the Pro L Series Lenses)

800 bucks on Amazon for a T2i - better video than anything you have ever shot EVER.

However it's not easy to make the transition to shooting video on a SLR camera - there are many variables and things you will need to learn about focusing, file formats, and editing..

For instance you have to transcode your footage to 29.97 prior to editing...

If you make this leap - email me if you need some tutoring...good luck

[billywatson]

Believe it or not, I like my little Canon Vixia HFS10. I'm a Canon dude, and I'm starting to finally get used to shooting tapeless.

[marcop]

800 bucks on Amazon for a T2i - better video than anything you have ever shot EVER.

About nine months ago I bought a T2i to experiment with DSLR video, and was blown away by the quality. As Slutboat says, you'll have to make adjustments to how you shoot video, but it's not too difficult.

[DirtyDanza]

I would not go to a tapeless workflow in our biz... for family stuff yes.. out biz no


here is why

We pay for footage .... lets just say you have a harddrive with 15 scenes on it.. say you paid the girl a grand per scene...

now it crashes... you just lost 15k...

with tape... you have a lifetime archive....

I would look into some of the sony's that can do tapless as well as archive to tape on a deck somewhere via firewire or something......

[AaronM]

Although I appreciate the input, I already shoot with Canon 5D Mark II's and am not looking for DSLR video.

[Slutboat]

Although I appreciate the input, I already shoot with Canon 5D Mark II's and am not looking for DSLR video.

Thats very understandable - I know a few photogs that can't manage shooting video with SLR's - at least they used to say that all the time - most of them have made the switch now, the SLR seems to have taken over with all the high end guys... I know I could never go backward in quality now.

[AaronM]

I would not go to a tapeless workflow in our biz... for family stuff yes.. out biz no


here is why

We pay for footage .... lets just say you have a harddrive with 15 scenes on it.. say you paid the girl a grand per scene...

now it crashes... you just lost 15k...

with tape... you have a lifetime archive....

I would look into some of the sony's that can do tapless as well as archive to tape on a deck somewhere via firewire or something......

This is why God invented RAID storage solutions.

Several of my clients are moving in the direction of tapeless and some are starting to request content on Blu-Ray. A dual format camera isn't a bad idea though. Any specific models you think I should look at?

[xenigo]

The next best thing to DSLR video is going to be the RED Scarlet with the S35 sensor, or the Sony PMW-F3 with S35 sensor. Any of these options will produce better results than the Canon XH A1, and are tapeless.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...m_Full_HD.html

http://gizmodo.com/5085242/red-unloa...slr-3d-and-28k

[dgraves]

Believe it or not, I like my little Canon Vixia HFS10. I'm a Canon dude, and I'm starting to finally get used to shooting tapeless.

i second that...i really like the canon vixia quality and i'm happy to get away from tapes.

one important tip about the SD cards though. if you ever take the card out of the camera to transfer the files, make sure you initialize the card before you use it again. i lost a hardcore shoot once and when i called canon they told me it was caused by plugging the card into my computer's SD slot. appearently files get written to it when you do that.

after that i started initializing my card before every shoot even though i don't remove it from the camera when i transfer.

[AaronM]

The next best thing to DSLR video is going to be the RED Scarlet with the S35 sensor, or the Sony PMW-F3 with S35 sensor. Any of these options will produce better results than the Canon XH A1, and are tapeless.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...m_Full_HD.html

http://gizmodo.com/5085242/red-unloa...slr-3d-and-28k

Can you say "Over kill"?

[xenigo]

We pay for footage .... lets just say you have a harddrive with 15 scenes on it.. say you paid the girl a grand per scene...

now it crashes... you just lost 15k...

Not to be an asshole, Danza... but who in their right mind doesn't back up their footage immediately after shooting? I typically shoot 35 gigs of content in a session. As soon as I'm done shooting, I am at my machine copying it over to one of my drives. When that's done transferring, I duplicate it to another drive.

I've never had a loss of any sort that didn't result from my own personal mistake.

[AaronM]

I guess I need to clarify a few things.

3 chip HD camera with same general size as the Canon XH A1.

IMHO, Cameras such as the Canon Vixia HFS10 are too small to use as a primary day to day video solution. I want something I can get both hands on comfortably and hold fairly steady.

Maybe we should be discussing the pros and cons of the different formats instead of the cameras themselves?

[xenigo]

Can you say "Over kill"?

Better to overkill than to underkill.

Right now I'm in the mindset of what can compare with DSLR quality, yet provides proper AF. These are the options as far as I know.

I'm happy with the footage from my 7D, but I'm also looking at these new products...

[AaronM]

Better to overkill than to underkill.

Right now I'm in the mindset of what can compare with DSLR quality....

The problem is, I want better than DSLR quality. However, paying 18k for a camera that will be shooting primarily Internet content is a major waste.

[Robbie]

Aaron I moved to the Panasonic AG-HPX170P which uses the P2 cards

I LOVE it.

I was wary and nervous about moving from tape. But now that I have...I couldn't ever see going back. You can get the 1TB external hard drives at Best Buy for under a couple hundred bucks for storage and it sure beats having stacks of DV tapes lying around.

It's also cool for a real dumb reason...I never start a shoot anymore and realize I don't have a tape! lol

But seriously...the workflow is much superior.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...lid_State.html

[Grapesoda]

I'm looking to step away from tape and move to a more storage friendly solution. For those of you who are shooting tapeless, what format did you decide on and why?

I'm also open to camera suggestions as long as they are equal in quality to the Canon XH A1.

Thank you.

aaron, I use sony camera so the files i shoot are compatible with vegas video... I use a consumer hd cam with a beachteck to pull in the audio, with wide lens attachment and shoot to 4 or 8 g duel pro cards and then burn the files to bd for the client.. i do NOT use the camera hd though i could if i needed to.

i did this for convenience sake... been shooting tapeless for almost 3 years

[xenigo]

I guess I need to clarify a few things.

3 chip HD camera with same general size as the Canon XH A1.

IMHO, Cameras such as the Canon Vixia HFS10 are too small to use as a primary day to day video solution. I want something I can get both hands on comfortably and hold fairly steady.

Maybe we should be discussing the pros and cons of the different formats instead of the cameras themselves?

Oh, I thought you were talking purely from a quality of footage perspective. The Vixia cameras have slightly smaller sensors than the XH A1, but the quality is not bad. The Vixia HF100 camera I use does produce some very good quality video, and I'm very happy with the results. But as you probably already know, it interlaces the footage and you will need to de-interlace the footage in post. In extremely low light the camera also backs the frame rate down to like 5 frames per second or something strange like that. Tape cameras tend to excel in low-light situations...

For the $600 they sell for these days, I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up just to test it out for a week or so. You can always return it if you don't like it.

As far stability, why don't you pick up a Steadicam Merlin?

[Grapesoda]

I guess I need to clarify a few things.

3 chip HD camera with same general size as the Canon XH A1.

IMHO, Cameras such as the Canon Vixia HFS10 are too small to use as a primary day to day video solution. I want something I can get both hands on comfortably and hold fairly steady.

Maybe we should be discussing the pros and cons of the different formats instead of the cameras themselves?

a really BIG ASS SECRET: client can't tell the diff between consumer and 3 chip if you light it correctly

[tony286]

Go with the pannys like robbie said. If you want mainstream boards to check out im me i will be home later

[Slutboat]

The problem is, I want better than DSLR quality. However, paying 18k for a camera that will be shooting primarily Internet content is a major waste.

You wont get better than DSLR quality from any video camera in the 6-10k range - its all about the glass.

[xenigo]

The problem is, I want better than DSLR quality. However, paying 18k for a camera that will be shooting primarily Internet content is a major waste.

If you want better than DSLR quality, you're not going to find it for less than $60,000. The only camera south of $80,000 that can produce results better than a DSLR is called the RED Epic.

The cameras mentioned earlier are your best bet for quality approaching that of DSLR.

It's not a major waste spending $18k on high-end internet footage. The better the source footage, the better the final product is... it just comes down to what you want. I stream Netflix to a 46" TV, which qualifies as "internet content"... and unless you're shooting with some sort of ARRI or RED, you won't be able to approach that level - online or anywhere.

[DirtyDanza]

Not to be an asshole, Danza... but who in their right mind doesn't back up their footage immediately after shooting? I typically shoot 35 gigs of content in a session. As soon as I'm done shooting, I am at my machine copying it over to one of my drives. When that's done transferring, I duplicate it to another drive.

I've never had a loss of any sort that didn't result from my own personal mistake.

I had 3tb worth of drives with all my "tape content" on it... some idiot hit the transformer in my neighbor hood ... I had surge protector after surgeprotector and a apc backup.. still fried the drives... I now have 3 drives that are nothing but paperweights.....


I know it could be rare.... but it could still happen.... I just worry about that shit....

[Slutboat]

If you want better than DSLR quality, you're not going to find it for less than $60,000. The only camera south of $80,000 that can produce results better than a DSLR is called the RED Epic.

The cameras mentioned earlier are your best bet for quality approaching that of DSLR.

It's not a major waste spending $18k on high-end internet footage. The better the source footage, the better the final product is... it just comes down to what you want. I stream Netflix to a 46" TV, which qualifies as "internet content"... and unless you're shooting with some sort of ARRI or RED, you won't be able to approach that level - online or anywhere.

yea I also chuckled when he said "better than DSLR quality" - I don't think he realizes what his 5D can do with the right lens...

[xenigo]

aaron, I use sony camera so the files i shoot are compatible with vegas video... I use a consumer hd cam with a beachteck to pull in the audio, with wide lens attachment and shoot to 4 or 8 g duel pro cards and then burn the files to bd for the client.. i do NOT use the camera hd though i could if i needed to.

i did this for convenience sake... been shooting tapeless for almost 3 years

I thought you were using some sort of $7k pro Sony camera w/ XLR inputs?

[tony286]

Tapes get fucked up also. I like tape but its a dying meduim

[DirtyDanza]

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro...roduct-HVRZ7U/


is what im picking up for christmas....


you can do both...

the quality is top notch...

you get ssd recording and tape archive at the same time... no wires ....

this is the cats ass IMO

[xenigo]

I had 3tb worth of drives with all my "tape content" on it... some idiot hit the transformer in my neighbor hood ... I had surge protector after surgeprotector and a apc backup.. still fried the drives... I now have 3 drives that are nothing but paperweights.....


I know it could be rare.... but it could still happen.... I just worry about that shit....

Oh, I forgot to mention I unplug all my backup drives after I complete a backup. They're all externals.

But that's incredibly shitty. Go buy a couple 2tb external drives and you'll be good to go.

[xenigo]

yea I also chuckled when he said "better than DSLR quality" - I don't think he realizes what his 5D can do with the right lens...

He's got the lenses covered... he uses the 24-70 and 70-200. Same gear I shoot with.

[AaronM]

If you want better than DSLR quality, you're not going to find it for less than $60,000. The only camera south of $80,000 that can produce results better than a DSLR is called the RED Epic.

The cameras mentioned earlier are your best bet for quality approaching that of DSLR.

It's not a major waste spending $18k on high-end internet footage. The better the source footage, the better the final product is... it just comes down to what you want. I stream Netflix to a 46" TV, which qualifies as "internet content"... and unless you're shooting with some sort of ARRI or RED, you won't be able to approach that level - online or anywhere.

I disagree. Thank you for your input Noah.

[DirtyDanza]

Ive shot with RED before and ive shot with dlsr's before ....

while they provide a great looking picture...

it is very easy to duplicate with a sonyHDV camera and the right guy behind the lens....

I personally would not spend that kind of cash on a camera when I can get same results out of a 7k camera.....


I shoot on z1u now... and have the z7u coming for christmas.... I have filmed a shit ton of broadcast commercials with the z1u that play all day here in las vegas on HD and look fine....

the bottom line is we can only display so much here...

shooting 2k and 4k is just over kill.. kind of like having a 10ton truck for a 2 ton job.... there is nothing to display 2k and 4k right now....

when I asked the guys at the RED booth this year at NAB about that they all just kind of stood there stumped .......

aaron is a good photog.. he could prolly get a handheld HD camera from best buy and shoot better content than 90% of the people on here who use the fancy 20k plus cameras....

remember the guy that shot the video using only his iphone how good it came out....

I say all video work is credited to the guy behind the camera and his vision .....

[CIVMatt]

I'm kinda surprised you're still USING tapes, you're going to love going tapeless.

[Jim_Gunn]

a really BIG ASS SECRET: client can't tell the diff between consumer and 3 chip if you light it correctly

What you wrote above is the truest statement in the thread. A lot of videographers and wannabes almost seem to fetishize the equipment. I don't use the very latest camera technology but spend a lot of time on lighting and optimizing the settings instead of upgrading the camera and get great video as a result. I'm still using tapes, but at some point next year I may go tapeless, perhaps with the Sony Ex-1 series since I like Sony video cameras. For my workflow in the meantime, tapes are still very easy for me to deal with.

[sinclair]

I am a fan of Panasonic. Big fan of the tapeless workflow as well. Not jumping on the DSLR bandwagon at all.

I am liking what I see so far in the AG-AF100 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ur_Thirds.html)

[justinsain]

Great thread even though AronM probably isn't getting the input he was hoping for.

My video equipment is ten years old and I need to upgrade as well. I guess that will mean a change in storage and work flow so it was nice to read the comments so far.

I'll probably stick with a separate DSLR and video camera however I'm blown away by what I've seen so far with a DSLR.
Here's a link to a local surf photographer's work that he shot with a 7D and the Canon 70-200 2.8

http://flshredcast.com/

I would be super satisfied with anything that could match that quality of his video.

[AaronM]

Great thread even though AronM probably isn't getting the input he was hoping for.

There have been a few great options suggested in this thread so I'll grab those and research things a bit more in depth.

Thanks again for all the recommendations.

[tony286]

aaron this was shot with your dslr camera
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/...s-eos-5d-mkii/
I got the 60d, Im learning to use it for shooting video. The footage just out of the camera untouched is pretty omg.

[Mr Happy]

I would not go to a tapeless workflow in our biz... for family stuff yes.. out biz no


here is why

We pay for footage .... lets just say you have a harddrive with 15 scenes on it.. say you paid the girl a grand per scene...

now it crashes... you just lost 15k...

with tape... you have a lifetime archive....

I would look into some of the sony's that can do tapless as well as archive to tape on a deck somewhere via firewire or something......

Only an idiot would back it all up both optical and HD on more than one drive.

Spend the money on a real video cam the SONY EX1R is a huge step above DSLR cams for video, but a lot more money as well.

[Mr Happy]

yea I also chuckled when he said "better than DSLR quality" - I don't think he realizes what his 5D can do with the right lens...

I know exactly what a Canon 5D MkII can do with the right lenses. I have a 7D and a 5DMkII, also a SONY EX1. The Sony EX1 is far superior to them both in full 4:3 drop and aspect ratio. Viewed on full size screens the DSLR cams are full of noise even shot at 50 iso

[xenigo]

I know exactly what a Canon 5D MkII can do with the right lenses. I have a 7D and a 5DMkII, also a SONY EX1. The Sony EX1 is far superior to them both in full 4:3 drop and aspect ratio. Viewed on full size screens the DSLR cams are full of noise even shot at 50 iso

Footage from my 7D is clean as fuck. I've never seen anything better. Maybe I need to rent an EX1.

[AaronM]

aaron this was shot with your dslr camera
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/...s-eos-5d-mkii/
I got the 60d, Im learning to use it for shooting video. The footage just out of the camera untouched is pretty omg.

Hey Tony,

I've seen a lot of great video shot with DSLR's and I've shot my fare share as well. However, call me old fashioned but I prefer a dedicated video camera. I have many reasons for this...Right or wrong....It's what I want.

I shoot a variety of content in a variety of ways and although the DSLR video engines are amazing, I'm not interested in using them at this point.

[tony286]

Hey Tony,

I've seen a lot of great video shot with DSLR's and I've shot my fare share as well. However, call me old fashioned but I prefer a dedicated video camera. I have many reasons for this...Right or wrong....It's what I want.

I shoot a variety of content in a variety of ways and although the DSLR video engines are amazing, I'm not interested in using them at this point.

look at the pannies my friend and Im around if you want some places to do research.

[AaronM]

look at the pannies my friend and Im around if you want some places to do research.

Thank you.

[JP-pornshooter]

blueray is just a delivery route

i shoot tape still but deliver all my content on bluray dvd, i was probably the first to do this, many of my clients didnt even have a bluray drive but after i asked them if this was an allowable way to deliver content they followed suit.

i have shot thousands of scenes on tape, never had one problem with a tape going bad..

dslrs for adult video is just not a great solution, great for editorial or news but not adult
pannys not bad tho

[Slutboat]

Footage from my 7D is clean as fuck. I've never seen anything better. Maybe I need to rent an EX1.

No you don't need to rent an EX1 - many people, like Mr. Happy waste thousands of dollars on an inferior picture quality machine then don't like to admit it...



The claim that they are full of noise is just laughably false - every pro shooter that I know in LA has switched over to the 7D (or 5D) for video - these are guys that can afford any camera... full length MOVIES are being shot with these cameras - it's well known that nothing short of the RED touches the DSLR's for quality - they absolutely smoke the EX1.

I know exactly what a Canon 5D MkII can do with the right lenses. I have a 7D and a 5DMkII, also a SONY EX1. The Sony EX1 is far superior to them both in full 4:3 drop and aspect ratio. Viewed on full size screens the DSLR cams are full of noise even shot at 50 iso

HUH??? - do you even know what "aspect ratio" means? and they don't even do 50 iso (unless it's faked)

[Grapesoda]

No you don't need to rent an EX1 - many people, like Mr. Happy waste thousands of dollars on an inferior picture quality machine then don't like to admit it...



The claim that they are full of noise is just laughably false - every pro shooter that I know in LA has switched over to the 7D (or 5D) for video... full length MOVIES are being shot with these cameras - it's well known that nothing short of the RED touches the DSLR's for quality - they absolutely smoke the EX1.








HUH??? - do you even know what "aspect ratio" means? and they don't even do 50 iso (unless it's faked)

flawed test... one cam on auto and one on man... if the stop on the ex1 was opened up a bit the detail and color would be there, gotta wonder about the skills set of the guy doing the test and the guys taking this a valid, plus I'm sure the glass on the canon is cleaner , no better glass was put on the ex1. but next time you get ready to shoot some gonzo make sure and use a manual focus vid camera

[Slutboat]

there are many reasons why a porn shooter would not want to use a DSLR for his daily video shooting - picture quality is not one of them.

watch this video in full res on youtube if you want to see this issue put to rest...



or go on Vimeo and look at some of the cinematic clips being shot with the Canon DSLR's - the ability to use a broad range of professional lenses is such a game changer... the depth of field and exposure latitude and iso range... good luck doing anything close with a "video" camera...

[Slutboat]

but next time you get ready to shoot some gonzo make sure and use a manual focus vid camera

This is a very un-informed statement - the auto focus works fine - just not while recording - and I use a Zacuto on the back of the camera to manually NAIL focus at any moment while I'm recording - these techniques are far beyond what most porn shooters will ever attempt to master.. but if you take the time to learn this shit - you will see why this is a far superior method than letting your auto focus search around for something to focus on...

[Grapesoda]

there are many reasons why a porn shooter would not want to use a DSLR for his daily video shooting - picture quality is not one of them.

watch this video in full res on youtube if you want to see this issue put to rest...



or go on Vimeo and look at some of the cinematic clips being shot with the Canon DSLR's - the ability to use a broad range of professional lenses is such a game changer... the depth of field and exposure latitude and iso range... good luck doing anything close with a "video" camera...

reality check: I'm a content producer... not shooting a feature

[Grapesoda]

This is a very un-informed statement - the auto focus works fine - just not while recording - and I use a Zacuto on the back of the camera to manually NAIL focus at any moment while I'm recording - these techniques are far beyond what most porn shooters will ever attempt to master.. but if you take the time to learn this shit - you will see why this is a far superior method than letting your auto focus search around for something to focus on...

let's see here: film and television, set lighting, director of photography, local 728, local 33, nabit, DGA, local 659...single camera and three camera from 1983 till 1999 .. I think I know what the fuck I'm doing and I know why.

so guess it's not really an uniformed statement is it?