Biller Comparision

[m0rph3us]

Let's have a little debate on the pros and cons of today's 'leading' 3rd party billers. I'll start. These aren't assumptions but just conclusions from actually using these billers

IBILL
Pro: good conversions, decent scrubbing
Con: paying, financial/stock/management situation, support

CCBILL
Pro: Support
Con: not so hot conversions, scrubbing, bad rebills

EPOCH:
Pro: Good conversions, lots of 'goodies', good rebills, good support
Con: Only US Corp. No EU.

PSW:
Pro: ?
Con: now requires EU/US corp now to process VISA, ?.

PROBILLING
Pro: No requirements
Con: Hard Scrubbing, 'Lost' merchant once ?

ACPAY
Pro: Good Scrubbing, No Presence Requirements
Con: Crappy interface//stats, no raw data, impossible to poll.

GLOBILL
Pro: No Presence Requirements
Con: Hard Scrubbing, Bad Rebills

JETTIS
Pro: ?
Con: ? OxCash used them then dumped them for PAYCOM/EPOCH

WSB
Pro: ? Presence Requirement.. not sure.
Con: Partner payout problems, CFF dumped them

2000CHARGE
Pro: ?
Con: ? Only EU cards ?

[Cyber3]

I have tried three processors on the list,

But when it comes down to who has the most sales, it's Ibill all the way for me.

The bottom line is, how much is the check at the end of the pay period, and they are always the highest.

I have never had a missed payment or had a late check either in the last three years, this also goes for my Rev Share guys.

I know allot of people have gotten screwed by Ibill, and of course I am also worried when it might be my time, I am switching to the MPA2 system this week with Ibill, CCbill and Epoch to spread out liability if one goes down.

All I can say is my sales are always the highest with them by far.

PS I also live 5 min from them so it is easier for me to get issues fixed fast.

Regards,

Kevin

[http]

From a webmaster's view (promoting a site) - not the paysite owner's view - which one gives a better bottomline, ccbill or epoch? I can choose from these 2 to promote a (recurring 29.95 - no trial) site and am unsure which one to choose

so you say epoch lets more cards through, and ccbill scrubs harder?

[Hind]

Originally posted by m0rph3us

IBILL
Pro: good conversions, decent scrubbing

LOL

[xxxinnovations]

PSW has always brought in the most signups for me... and i rarely have chargebacks.

I put up a gallery on thehun with a ccbill code and then a month later with a PSW code and the psw did many more signups, believe it or not, I don't care...

CCBill scrubs too hard IMO.

[BluMedia]

I do agree and think CCBill does scrub harder but their chargebacks are very low because of this. What is everyones experience with Epoch and chargebacks?

Thanks,
Mark Erickson
BluMedia Inc.

[originalheather]

Ibill:

If you have someone inside Ibill that will go to bat for you, payment's not an issue, but it sure as heck was a battle getting my money. They did pay me, though.

Pros: Agreed, they convert well and I'm on the lowest scrub because of low chargebacks. Will pay outside the US even if showing a US presence, nice, since I live in Mexico, but registered with Visa in the US.

Cons: DI doesn't work, PM can take up to 2 weeks to set up, support (for the unconnected), non-existent, slow support if you are well-connected, fucked up checking rebills and listing check bounces as refunds, cancelling members for no reason and refusing to reinstate them even if they call in.

CCbill:
No Pros.

Cons:
last used them in 1999, when they proceeded to almost destroy my site with no expirations, random refunding, a supposed 20% chargeback ratio (I'd been at under 3% with the previous processor), conversions in the toilet, lousy support, denial that they were refunding EVERY member that cancelled rebilling, though they were. I went from an average of 30 signups a day to 5-7. They told me I was nuts. I left after one month. When it came time to pay me, they didn't wire me (at my request, cause the amount was so low) for over 12 weeks...but charged me for 12 wire transfers while only sending 1 and I have yet to be paid back for them.

Epoch:

Pros: Everyone's saying that all their features rock, the big guys are using them, they supposedly have multiple levels of scrubs, they are flexible with Visa reg's (ie, paying outside the US if regg'd in US).

Cons:
On sites where I was a reseller, they paid me on average about 1 in every 6 checks for years. I gave up long ago fighting them for those payments. I still have one site that I am still recurring on (2 years after I stopped sending traffic, tell me recurring doesn't rock!), they still only send about 1 in 5 checks. They've had at least two payment scandals so far and seems like there's a revolving door in the ownership.

PSW:
Pros: They seem to pay on time, what little there is to pay out, that is.

Cons: Their checking processing is totally fucked up...they refuse to fix it. Their conversions SUCK. Despite being able to prove that they had problems with their cc's and checks and stats, they refuse to respond. They don't work weekends. They take forever to fix any problem.

They suddenly cut off my processing of Visa though I'm reg'd in the US because I have Mexican Wire info. No warning, no answer to emails, just cut off, a lousy form email and that's it. Doesn't matter that I have a US business presence, no offer to change the payout address, just no more Visa.

Jettis: Haven't used them yet, BUT:
Pros: I've heard great things about them. Ken Lawson's affiliation makes me comfortable. Their rates are excellent. They promise that their conversions will surprise me. I've heard they're not scrubbing so hard anymore.

Cons: A contract that weighs half a pound and is solely responsible for the depletion of at least one rainforest. So complicated that I won't sign it without sending it to an attorney first.

Globill: only used them as a reseller. They bounced a check for 17 dollars on me TWICE and made me jump through hoops to get my bank fees back. Rumor also has it that they're SYPRO recycled..bad thing.

To http: Don't count on Epoch paying you as a reseller. You WILL miss checks, it IS impossible to get them to respond to you if you're not a site owner. It seems to be a part of their profit margin. They've been that way since 1998. I had to be paid by my sponsor (I was his largest reseller then) because they simply wouldn't pay me all my checks and we were talking about 3K dollar payouts. We're going to use them as part of cascading processing (for great features) and will have to do payouts ourselves or through a payout service, they're that bad. With CCbill, your conversions will suck. If you have to promote one of them and you have a lot of traffic, get the website owner to pay you direct.

For a reseller of a site, Ibill is still by far the best bet.

[http]

very interesting... thanks

[HardProfits]

I will only speak of what I know as facts:

iBill
Pros:
Best sign ups
Best Rebills
Best Interface
Lowest Refunds

Cons:
Late Payments
Hard Structural set up for o/s webmasters
non responding management (which will hopefully change now)

*************
CCBill
Pros:
Great Support
Consistent payers (never EVER missed)
Easy set up

Cons
Lower signups
Lower conversions
Don?t have one interface for multiple master accounts

*************
2000Charge
Pros:
Excellent for Euro and Korean transactions

Cons:
System uses email address as username
Interface sucks

*************
My Future

I am planning on keeping my relationships strong and vibrant with my IPSP partners. But I am investigating the addition of doing my own merchant processing as a further weapon in my arsenal.

*************

Summation

No one biller "rocks" or "sucks". Everyone should use multiple billing, as there may be an instance where:

1) An IPSP gets into financial difficulty
2) An IPSP decides to get out of the game

Etc etc

Work with your IPSP as a partner. Get to know them well and understand their needs are the same as yours. To make as many signups eventuate, and to keep them as a happy member. Shit, that?s how they make money too ya know?

And finally, keep abreast of the changes yet sweeping through our industry.

Issues like:

1) MasterCard adding its own registration process, and
2) Verified by Visa

Note: and some dickhead seems to be spreading a rumour about a $50K fee being imposed by Visa for each site we own. As far as I know, this is absolute Bullshit


Hugs to all
Daniel

[p`mpd0g]

Originally posted by originalheather
Ibill:

can you please contact me on ICQ, I would like to ask you something. Is there an email I can reach you at?

My number is 91603384. Thanks.

[m0rph3us]

Originally posted by p`mpd0g


can you please contact me on ICQ, I would like to ask you something. Is there an email I can reach you at?

My number is 91603384. Thanks.

uhm wtf why did my post show up as pimp-dog ????

[http]

lol... test

[Shoplifter]

A lot of guys (including myself) slam Ibill for various reasons but yes out of all the billers I have used Ibill converts and rebills best.

Because of all this trouble over the past few months I am now starting up a major operation with AC Pay just so I wouldn't have all my eggs in one place. The only con so far is that it has been 5 days now with no setup info from them.

If it seems slow I will quickly switch to Ibill.

[m0rph3us]

bump

[HardProfits]

worth another bump me thinks

[NETbilling]

Hi,

Why not use a system that gives you all of the tools that the IPSPs provide but let you control your own level of scrubbing individually for your sites and provides daily payouts? Control is obviously the most important aspect to continued growth and success. I invite you all to see our system and discuss your needs and options with us.

Mitch

[HardProfits]

Originally posted by netbilling
Hi,

Why not use a system that gives you all of the tools that the IPSPs provide but let you control your own level of scrubbing individually for your sites and provides daily payouts? Control is obviously the most important aspect to continued growth and success. I invite you all to see our system and discuss your needs and options with us.

Mitch

I agree with you totally Mitch, but as you well know, how the fuck do I get a Merchant account?

I have sent Bill emails, and I dont seem to be getting anywhere

Daniel

[Pornwolf]

That's 16 posts before you came in and did your dance. Are you slowing down?

[NETbilling]

Daniel,

Please call me tomorrow. I have a great option for you.

661-252-2456 x1002

Have them interrupt me if I am on another call when you ring.

Thanks, Mitch

[HardProfits]

okie doki

it will be late in your afternoon of course

[m0rph3us]

Mitch,

I agree that a merchant account would be the ideal option to 'take control' however, for a new, relatively small inital volume, non US resident company it seems very hard to get a merchant account.

If things were easy, everyone would have one.

[NETbilling]

m0rph3us,

If you are processing under 25k per month and not in the US, it is harder to get a merchant account but not impossible.

Mitch

[bhutocracy]

2000charge is 8% and accepts some diverse payment options.

[HardProfits]

Originally posted by bhutocracy
2000charge is 8% and accepts some diverse payment options.

How much volume gets you an 8% cc fee with 2000Charge?

And how high is the hold back on that deal?

[Masturbationman]

Can't believe anyone would even consider getting a merchant account. If things were that easy all the big players would be doing it. customers know when you have your own merchant account and know they can fuck you or get a refund. Customers keep getting smarter and smarter. Just going to have to wait till the new technology comes out from Visa where everyone will have to register with a private password in order to buy shit on the internet. Should be here in 2004.

[m0rph3us]

Originally posted by Masturbationman
Can't believe anyone would even consider getting a merchant account. If things were that easy all the big players would be doing it. customers know when you have your own merchant account and know they can fuck you or get a refund. Customers keep getting smarter and smarter. Just going to have to wait till the new technology comes out from Visa where everyone will have to register with a private password in order to buy shit on the internet. Should be here in 2004.

offshore merchants are at 2.5%max CB rate. I've never had more than 1%

[NETbilling]

Masturbationman,

You are 100% incorrect. How do you think a surfer knows whether a site owner processes with Netbilling or another company using their own merchant account or through the processing companies merchant account?
Many of the big players do have their own merchant accounts and in the mainstream world, almost everyone does. We process for thousands of sites, all with thier own merchant account, both adult and mainstream.

Mitch

[Hooper]

Ibill - Doesnt pay you. I cant really see a bigger flaw anywhere.

2000 Charge - Pain in the ass system.. tried to charge us 500 bucks in setup fees after we told them their system sucked... and if you're based out of the USA or EU you are in violation of VISA rules if you use them for visa processing.

PSW - Pays us on time. Support sucks major ass. Nobody ever answers the phones. They treat you like an idiot and dont care about your biz. Conversions are fine, rebills are fine, features are lacking.

CCBill - In many years they have never been late with, much less missed a payment. Their admin kinda sucks ass... but they are people intense.. I kid you not that our sales rep literally gave us his shoes one night when we couldnt get somebody into a club because they were wearing running shoes. The ccbill crew is a top notch crowd in my book and we will always owe them a debt of gratitude for their very powerful influence on our success.

Paycom - We've only used them for a short time and have found rebills to be poorer than ccbill, but the system is so feature rich that it tends to compensate for the rebills. Their documentation of their API is fantastic for programmers. As with all IPSP's.. their admin sucks so you have to rely on your own in house programmers. They have not *missed* a payment yet.

WebSiteBilling - Handled themselves poorly with the visa issues so we pulled all cc processing from them. A shame since their reporting was good and their retention were good and scrub very reasonable. We use them only for their web900 service because ibill is less reliable.

Globill.. cmon.. you gotta be kidding me. why do you think no big money makers use them? I imagine they'll die off. Visa doesnt like people who try to skate around the rules.

AC Pay - Good idea 3 years ago.. they arent an IPSP so you'll get fucked if you use them and you're a usa or eu sponsored merchant. They'll be gone in a year (not adultcheck.. jus acpay)

ProBilling - Not an IPSP as above. They'll be gone in a year.

NetBilling - Nice. Good looking API. Couldnt get us a merchant account for a very small amount of non-adult processing. Seem desperate with their continual posting.

JetBill - Contract is 50 pages long and they wont take quite legal sites that they worry may cause problems down the line. Heard bad things about scrubbing and batching... but only through the "grapevine".

Am i missing somebody? If so i'll be happy to share.

[NETbilling]

Hooper,

We are certainly not desperate, just eager to inform....
Netbilling is growing rapidly, I can assure you.

Also, I am not sure why you could not get a mainstream merchant account before, but I will be happy to discuss with you if you need one.

Were you on the phone last week with Wiseman during our admin walkthrough? I would like to show you what we have so you can make a fair comparison. You will be very impressed.

Mitch

[digihax]

Ive been a webmaster with IBILL Since they first released the credit card billing option.. and Ive never had a missed check.. I will admit the tech support isnt the best but by far they are the best I have used yet and I have used the following

Globill
Ccbill
Ibill

I know alot of people have problems with IBILL ive never had a problem with them with all the years ive been with them.. just something to think about.. Im thinking about using that MPA2 thing as well tho better safe than sorry hehe

Just my 2 cents.

[KRL]

In summary, not a single company out there has a five star rating.

Thus, logic dictates, proceed with caution and at your own risk.

The only thing guaranteed is "change". Cause you never know when todays touted and fantastic to do biz with billing company will be yesterday's they suck, haven't paid me and won't return my e-mails billing company.

[Kimmykim]

Ah well, I could write a book, coming from both sides of the coin.

There are a lot of good points made here, and some that really don't apply to the majority of people, but I'll leave that alone.

My advice is this:

Get a biller and a backup for credit cards.

Make SURE your IPSP is registered. Make sure they are setting transactions WHERE YOUR BUSINESS IS LOCATED -- not just authorizing them there and settling them elsewhere.

Do a search on ALL boards -- if you find a thread where more than one person says they have been paid late by a processor then INVESTIGATE and find out why. And if they have paid up since the thread started. I'd suggest searching January and February.

DIVERSIFY. Take every possible type of payment you can from every possible source. No, you won't be a big fish at one particular place but you won't have all your eggs in one basket either. Eurodebit, dialers, alternative payment systems, you name it, GET IT. USE IT.

Once you THINK you have settled on a processor, start surfing. Look at the companies that are using this processing company and check out their join setups. If you see companies doing things that you think are shady, then you might want to think twice about using that processing solution since Visa will be knocking and Mastercard probably will come for them as well.

Last but not least, don't try to be cute and skirt the rules. If something sounds too good to be true, guess what? IT IS. If Visa says register, pay your money, settle where your business is, and someone tells you not to worry about what Visa says, RUN. FAST. RUN FASTER.

Pretend like Visa is the IRS or whatever your country's equivalent is. They can fuck you up faster than the IRS and they will if they catch you trying to play fast and loose with the rules.

Sadly enough this industry is so about being on the fringe and a step ahead that often the forest gets overlooked for the trees.

[HardProfits]

Wow - what an awesome thread

Kimmy - I agree with every word you said

Hooper - I cant agree with eveything you said, but I will agree that CCBill rocks for the way it handles its webmasters - 5 star all the way

I will disagree though on the iBill front. iBill does do better than CCBill on initial sales and conversions and rebills

And I must defend Mitch (NetBilling) as well. It is my STRONG belief that if more people got on the boards from the billing systems, our lives would be a whole lot better. At least Mitch is in the conversation (unlike many other billers)

And as for 2000Charge - what better options are their over what Wolf offers with Korean and Euro Billing right now, that has a presence in the United States without a contract based in some Cayman Isalnd company. Wolf has that area covered, and we have been able to intergrate his system into ours very easily. Their option is the only option I can see right now that makes sense (Korean and Euro).

digihax - wait till April/May this year to get more info on "Verified by Visa" before making any serious long term commitments on your billing

Masturbationman: appropriate nickname mate. I cant agree with you anywhere there

Summary: Use two or three IPSP's - and put a good % thru each one (for safety's sake). Take Kimmy's advice, if they arent registered IPSP's, and their package sounds too good to be true. Fucking Run

For the bigger playa's: Add a merchant account to your IPSP mix (this is an absolute must do)

Hugs to all
Daniel

[HardProfits]

B4 I go to bed, I really should make this one last point.

This business is all about on thing now:

--------- RISK MANAGMENT ----------

And if you think about it clearly, break down your businesses like this:

1) Traffic
2) Content
3) Technical
4) Staff/Operations
5) Affiliate systems
6) blah blah blah
7) Billing

The only item in the above list that can instantly kill you/us is "BILLING"

If you just have a merchant account - get an IPSP account today

If you just have one IPSP account, get another one today

Study these next few lines carefully:

1) Verified by Visa

2) Better Billing Practices

3) MasterCard registration

4) Cross Border Acquisition

5) Further reductions in Chargeback ratio's

6) EU and USA Internet Transaction TAXES

*****************

Note: I am heading over to the conference in Phoenix in April (loooooooooong trip from down under), just so I can discuss with other playa's these and other issues.


If you want to meet me there, spam me at daniel at hardprofits.com

And if you arent going - BIG MISTAKE

http://www.DesertForum.com/

******************

Good night all
Daniel

aka: Evil Dan

[corvette]

Originally posted by HardProfits
It is my STRONG belief that if more people got on the boards from the billing systems, our lives would be a whole lot better. At least Mitch is in the conversation

Perhaps some billers might just be listening to the conversation and taking a passive roll?There are some things listed above that I agree with very much. It is good to have an objective view of how things are working. My take on this thread was more to sit there quietly and take notes, rather than argue a point, solicit business, etc.

And I am certainly not implying that Mitch is trying to solicit business in this thread. It was nice meeting you in Vegas, btw

If you have any questions or want my point of view, just ring. Otherwise, I think that it is appropriate if I sit here reading.

Just letting you know that I am here. See you in April

[Que?]

ccbill seems to be most popular affiliate program with resellers.


Ibill does give a mail note before rebilling nowadays, so its hard to believe they rebill better than ccbill

[Chris Mallick]

Originally posted by corvett


Perhaps some billers might just be listening to the conversation and taking a passive roll?There are some things listed above that I agree with very much. It is good to have an objective view of how things are working. My take on this thread was more to sit there quietly and take notes, rather than argue a point, solicit business, etc.

And I am certainly not implying that Mitch is trying to solicit business in this thread. It was nice meeting you in Vegas, btw

If you have any questions or want my point of view, just ring. Otherwise, I think that it is appropriate if I sit here reading.

Just letting you know that I am here. See you in April

EPOCH's here too. We are reading and taking our notes as well. If we can answer any questions, call us at 888-627-3888 or 310-827-5880 and ask for Sales. Amparo,Keith, Isabel, Jim, Anthony or Jeff will be glad to help. You can email [email protected]

See you all in Phoenix!

C

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by Que?
ccbill seems to be most popular affiliate program with resellers.


Ibill does give a mail note before rebilling nowadays, so its hard to believe they rebill better than ccbill

Are you sure about that? I haven't seen or heard anything about a rebill warning being emailed out by ibill.

[javok]

I have used Ibill, rebills are GREAT, but they keep to much of the money, the usually have problems with payments and the revshare system is too old.

What about ClickBank? anyone can give an opinion about them?


PD: I am looking for a processor, i will sell an ebook, mostly in spain and south america, if anyone wants to offer something good, please contact me.
icq: 39884456
msn: [email protected]

[TheJimmy]

I'm torn between going with ibill or epoch...


damm these threads & discussions with friends for making me re-think my plans!


hmmm


anyone out there have experience with using both of those?

[rowan]

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen mention of Paypal yet...? I'm about to add it as another billing option to my sites.

[Hooper]

And as for 2000Charge - what better options are their over what Wolf offers with Korean and Euro Billing right now, that has a presence in the United States without a contract based in some Cayman Isalnd company. Wolf has that area covered, and we have been able to intergrate his system into ours very easily. Their option is the only option I can see right now that makes sense (Korean and Euro).

Agreed, they have the korean and euro cornered.. however they lost our biz when they refused to remove visa/mc as a billing option from their join forms because we dont want to settle across borders.

They then proceeded to send us a "setup" invoice for 500 bucks when we told them that we couldnt use them if that was the case.

[Hooper]

and btw.. i hope nobody gets the mis-impression that i'm lambasting them... if they do.. they are mistakenly taking things "personally"

nobody ever improves without criticism and what i have posted here is largely just excerpts of what i have already repeatedly told each of those billing companies directly :-)

[Groove]

For the benefit of non-US webmasters...

Anyone want to comment on AC Pay or Paypal?

Comments from actual users please

[HardProfits]

Originally posted by Hooper
and btw.. i hope nobody gets the mis-impression that i'm lambasting them... if they do.. they are mistakenly taking things "personally"

nobody ever improves without criticism and what i have posted here is largely just excerpts of what i have already repeatedly told each of those billing companies directly :-)

I never thought for one moment that you were taking the piss out of anyone in particular Hooper - especially with comments like "AC Pay - Good idea 3 years ago.. they arent an IPSP so you'll get fucked if you use them " (LMOA)

Your a funny bugger - truly Evil

[NETbilling]

Daniel & Kimmy,

Great words you have both written above.

--------------------

Corvett,

It was great meeting you in Vegas. Looking forward to seeing you in April.


--------------------

TheJimmy,

Can you ICQ me please? 117496436

--------------------

Hooper,

No offense taken by anyone, I'm sure.

Mitch

[HardProfits]

Hey Kimmy, we have a fan club of one - Mitch from Netbilling (lmao)

[chupacabra]

I'm torn between going with ibill or epoch...

wow... never seen *anyone* speak these words here before, stay away from iBill if you want to actually get checks and such..

[LongShlong8]

I thought Ibill, CCBILL and Epoch were all the same company. Owned by intercept I thought. If they aren't, I would give them each a try, I'm just afriad their whole house could come tumbling down and bring down all three at once. That would suck ass. I really need to find a good third party processor, but this seems way too hard a choice for any mere mortal.

[chupacabra]

I thought Ibill, CCBILL and Epoch were all the same company. Owned by intercept I thought.

definitely not..