Doomed Shuttle?

[UnseenWorld]

I heard on the radio this morning that while they didn't do a spacewalk to see if any damage was done by that piece of insulation, if it they had discovered any, the astronauts would have had the choice of dying in outer space or on reentry. Why? Because if tiles had been found to be damaged, there would have been no likely way of fixing the tiles or getting the astronauts down. We'd have had the prospect of watching them starve and freeze to death as their oxygen, fuel (for environmental controls), and food ran out. It might have been in NASA's interest, then, not to know and just cross its fingers and hope for the best on reentry, because that is a much better (and possibly more humane) way to let them die instead of asking them to go through their duties knowing they were going to die a lingering death in space.

BTW, another thing that came out (and which most people don't know) is that the astronauts in the previous Challenger disaster were alive until impact, and in radio contact all the way down, but the tapes have never been and probably never will be released to the public. Anyone care to initiate a Freedom of Information request?

[PersianKitty]

I do know from people who were involved with the recovery mission for Challenger that the crew compartment was found intact. That the cause of death could not be determined. That the forces caused from the initial breakup did not likely cause death or serious injury, but that they likely lost consciousness moments after the breakup due to loss of crew cabin pressure.

[stevo]

I heard on the news yesterday that some of the Challenger crew survived the explosion. Some of the oxygen bags were found used. But they died on impact with the ocean...

There were no space suits or robot arm on the Columbia - no way to check the tiles... But if they had to you'd think they could probably launch another shuttle to rescue them???

[WiredGuy]

Originally posted by stevo
But if they had to you'd think they could probably launch another shuttle to rescue them???

Couldn't they just have gone to the ISS and boarded there until a re-supply ship could come pick them up?

WG

[PersianKitty]

Originally posted by WiredGuy


Couldn't they just have gone to the ISS and boarded there until a re-supply ship could come pick them up?

WG

This has been mentioned in other posts and in the media. The Columbia was not equiped to dock with the ISS. They left the entire cargo bay open for usage rather than install the docking equipment neccessary and take up cargo bay space.

[KRL]

The bottom line the envelope was pushed to far and 7 brilliant people paid the price.

[Zebra]

There were 2 EVA suits on the Columbia but they were only for spacewalks in the cargo bay. There were no jetpacks on board the shuttle and no safety equipment to go UNDER the shuttle to look at the area that was supposedly damaged.
They had enough supplies to last till Feb. 5 and they could have stretched them a few more days until Atlantis could be readied to go up to get them.
The problem was there was no sense of danger before re-entry. The NASA engineers had reviewed the video of the debris hitting the shuttle and were of the opinion that it may have knocked a few heat tiles loose but that it shouldn't pose a threat during re-entry. Only in hindsight do they now think it may have been a factor. The data received from the sensors on the shuttle will offer some clues as to what happened, but unless they find the area of the left wing where the problems started we may never know for sure. Remember, they were gliding in at 12,500MPH. If anything goes wrong at that speed then disaster is sure to follow. I see people asking why they did not have ejection seats. Can you imagine what would happen if you ejected at 40miles up at Mach 18.3? You probably wouldn't even survive long enough to clear the shuttle. They knew the risks and they still went. I don't think that is stupid or a waste of life, I think it is brave. After the Challenger explosion not one single astronaut at NASA dropped out because they were scared to go back up. How many of you would go on the next shuttle flight if offered the chance? I know I would.

[CC]

You're correct, they had no way of repairing the damage to the tiles themselves...HOWEVER, if NASA had known how grave the danger was (which they obviously didn't at the time), they would have possibly had a few options.

First option, they could have re-entered the atmosphere while favoring the damaged left wing. The astronauts would then have to eject from the shuttle at a reasonable height (NOT 39 mi) before the right wing got too overheated from the extra heat it would be absorbing to make up for the damaged left side of the shuttle. Obviously the shuttle would have exploded in this scenario as well, however, hopefully the astronauts would have been able to abandon ship before this happened.

Second option, a second shuttle could have been launched while the Columbia was stil in orbit, in order to get the Columbia astronauts on board the new shuttle. However, 2 shuttles have NEVER been in space simultaneously and Mission Control is not prepared for that scenario, so it would have also been extremely risky. Also, the next shuttle that was set to go up wasn't ready yet, so they would have had to act quickly in order to get the second shuttle ready for launch...which is risky as well.

Cassie

[CC]

Originally posted by Zebra
How many of you would go on the next shuttle flight if offered the chance? I know I would.

I personally wouldn't...but a friend of mine is a rocket scientist for NASA in Houston and he would go up in a heart beat.

Cassie

[d0se]

I can't help but think, that if this was the case, would ground control have informed the crew? (assuming they were unaware?) or would they have just kept it quiet? It's an interesting moral dillemma(sp) when you think about it.. do you let them know they may die on re-enrty and put the fear of god into them for weeks on end or do you keep it hush hush and 'hope for the best'?

I can't decide which I would do.. it's just too much of a fucked up situation.

hm.

*more buckets*

[Zebra]

There was an escape pole installed on the Columbia. In an emergency it could be extended and the crew could slide down it and away from the shuttle and then open their parachutes. The only problem with this is they have to be going VERY slow and be at an altitude of less than 5 miles. Not to mention it has never been tested by a human being before.

Of course all this is pointless since they most likely had no reason to suspect they needed to use it till it was too late. If you listen to the last transmission from the pilot he says "Roger..buh (but?)". He didn't sound like he knew something was happening in the last few transmissions. I heard them say that they kept receiving data from some of the shuttle sensors for 28 seconds after his last transmission broke up. Most likely they were already spinning out of control and could not even move. It would be nice to think it all ended quickly for them.

[Zebra]

Originally posted by d0se
I can't help but think, that if this was the case, would ground control have informed the crew? (assuming they were unaware?) or would they have just kept it quiet? It's an interesting moral dillemma(sp) when you think about it.. do you let them know they may die on re-enrty and put the fear of god into them for weeks on end or do you keep it hush hush and 'hope for the best'?

I can't decide which I would do.. it's just too much of a fucked up situation.

hm.

*more buckets*

I think if they knew they would have tried SOMETHING. At least delay the re-entry for as long as possible to give them time to think something up. I doubt NASA would have let this happen if they actually thought there was a chance of losing the shuttle.

[CC]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

BTW, another thing that came out (and which most people don't know) is that the astronauts in the previous Challenger disaster were alive until impact, and in radio contact all the way down, but the tapes have never been and probably never will be released to the public. Anyone care to initiate a Freedom of Information request?

God no, please let them rest in peace! There is no reason to release those tapes to the public and further upset their poor families. The only reason anyone would want to hear the tapes is to satiate a morbid curiosity. Letting Joe Blow hear the tapes wouldn't help the safety of the space program one iota, IMO.

[Snowone]

One thing the NASA spokesman kept mention over the weekend is that even if the shuttle crew had a way to spacewalk under the shuttle and repair the damage to the tiles, they would have done as much damage to other tiles getting to the damaged area, as they would have repaired.

The heat tiles are basically 10% sand and 90% air with a ceramic layer.

Hind sight is 20/20, we learn from the mistakes and fix'm.

We can all imagine other options. They weren't there this time.

Next time, lets hope there are other options.

;)

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by CC
You're correct, they had no way of repairing the damage to the tiles themselves...HOWEVER, if NASA had known how grave the danger was (which they obviously didn't at the time), they would have possibly had a few options.

First option, they could have re-entered the atmosphere while favoring the damaged left wing. The astronauts would then have to eject from the shuttle at a reasonable height (NOT 39 mi) before the right wing got too overheated from the extra heat it would be absorbing to make up for the damaged left side of the shuttle. Obviously the shuttle would have exploded in this scenario as well, however, hopefully the astronauts would have been able to abandon ship before this happened.

Second option, a second shuttle could have been launched while the Columbia was stil in orbit, in order to get the Columbia astronauts on board the new shuttle. However, 2 shuttles have NEVER been in space simultaneously and Mission Control is not prepared for that scenario, so it would have also been extremely risky. Also, the next shuttle that was set to go up wasn't ready yet, so they would have had to act quickly in order to get the second shuttle ready for launch...which is risky as well.

Cassie

I don't think the shuttle has ejection seats. With temperatures outside the shuttle on reentry at about 5000F, I think even a very brief exposure plasma-level temperatures would have incinerated them even if they could have ejected.

Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that you don't just SLAP a shuttle on the launch pad. It takes weeks of preparation and the weather has to be just right.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by CC

The only reason anyone would want to hear the tapes is to satiate a morbid curiosity.

You may have noticed how many morbid posts (accident and mayhem images) are posted or linked to on this board.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by Snowone
One thing the NASA spokesman kept mention over the weekend is that even if the shuttle crew had a way to spacewalk under the shuttle and repair the damage to the tiles, they would have done as much damage to other tiles getting to the damaged area, as they would have repaired.

The heat tiles are basically 10% sand and 90% air with a ceramic layer.

Hind sight is 20/20, we learn from the mistakes and fix'm.

We can all imagine other options. They weren't there this time.

Next time, lets hope there are other options.

;)

I can't imagine what kind of bonding agent one would use in space that would work in the temperature extremes and/or not require an atmosphere in order to cure. Also, I think many of the tiles, and especially those in places like leading edges, are one-offs.