I hate free

[Theo]

here's an interesting article, recommended for the ones that are new in the industry and not only. I think Steve that posts here wrote it.

http://www.cozyfrog.com/guides/other...s/HateFree.asp

Cozyfrog has nice articles. I discovered it lately.

Here's a nice bookmark:

http://www.allofem.com/articles.shtml

[Cohen]

Talk to graphic designers who work in this industry and they will tell you that they are getting more and more enquiries from webmasters who seem to have no concept of the value of a graphic designer's time and talent. One designer I know was asked for a quote on a pay site tour and when he quoted his standard figure of around $1300 was told that the webmaster expected to pay less than $50.00.

I would hate to be a fulltime designer

[multisexsite]

You could get a stolen design for that

[Shaggy]

ahh....the joys of newbieism.

[[Labret]]

I hate newbs. I wish I could stab each one of you individually.

[JackFoley]

The top and bottom of a web page are the optimum places to advertise and that's why a free host grabs those spots for their banners. In truth anyone who is using a free host is working for that host because the surfers who come to the site or gallery will get hit with the host's advertising first and it is the host who gets the majority of the sales.

Riiiiiiiight.

[rayzor]

Originally posted by JackFoley
Riiiiiiiight.

so true... haha.. that article must have been written 4 years ago... if you believe that you need

[Sambuka]

He is complaining that GFY & other boards tells newbies the wrong idea about how to start out in this industry. WELL GOOD
I don't want them here they are just more competition that none of us need.

Sammy

[quiet]

[m0rph3us]

Originally posted by quiet

newbie

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

Talk to graphic designers who work in this industry and they will tell you that they are getting more and more enquiries from webmasters who seem to have no concept of the value of a graphic designer's time and talent. One designer I know was asked for a quote on a pay site tour and when he quoted his standard figure of around $1300 was told that the webmaster expected to pay less than $50.00.

Yes ... this statement is not far off ... although personally I have not had anybody expect to pay $50.00 for a full tour, I often get people telling me that they were hoping to pay considerably less than our prices are ... and our prices I think are VERY fair for quality work ... they are not the cheapest going, but at same time are far from the most expensive too !! I have many of my clients tell me that my prices are very reasonable, and even a coulple that have told me that I am ripping myself off, and insist on paying me MORE (right Jim ... lol)

Bottom line is this .... Design is a skill ... not everybody posesses it (and thank god for that, or we'd be unemployed ... ). With ANY skilled profession, even Doctor, lawyer, plumber, electrician, whatever, you pay a bit of a premium for the work, but it reflects also on the time, tools, experience, and know-how that the tradesperson has invested into being an "expert" at what they do.

And in our case, although myself and Vid do design for many hours of the day, we currently have a staff of 6 talented designers that we must pay also, this is not just a hobby for us.

Our prices are not always etched in stone, and if asked, we try our best to work with clients budgets, on a per case basis.

As a program owner, when you think of all the money that a well thought out design will help you make, the price does not seem all that high really. Program owners make mone on a recurring basis, with us ... we make it once per job, and that is it (maybe little changes down the road, but you cannot bank on that). This is all we do to make our living.

For the most of you, what I say is nothing new ... but there is an ever-increasing number of newbies that expect the world for a couple of bucks ... it is frustrating to spend 30 minutes on ICQ with somebody who really likes your work, and spells out to you exactly what they want done, and it sounds all but a done deal, and then as soon as you start talking prices to them they freak out ... maybe call you a ripoff artist ... and several other choice words ... and then disappear into thin air ...

While I am on this rant ... let me take a second to address several "up and coming" talented designers, without naming any names ... FOR CHRIST SAKES GUYS - TAKE SOME PRIDE IN YOUR WORK, and charge resonable rates! You do not have to WHORE YOURSELF at rates 5 times cheaper than everybody else to make a buck. If your work is quality, the clients who will keep food on your table will not mind paying for it within reason, and there is more than enough design work out there that we really do not need to cut each other's throats.

I am friends with many of the other great designers/design companies out there - AMP, Fletch, bhutocracy, Ryan(AGFX), Teen Angel, Todd O. (webinc), VooDoo, MachineGunKelly, Quashe, Naughty, Druid, RedShoe ... just to name a few. The adult internet is so vast, that there is enough pie to share, we don't need to be "rivals".

And now that I am almost all ranted out, I would like to make one last point ... WTF is up with all these "design contests" ?!?
I mean honestly ... if you own a few acres of land, do you have 30 different homebuilders come and build you a house, and decide to pay only the one you like best ?!?

IMHO ... I think design contests are LAME !!!
Stop being lazy ... go and research a few companies, look at their portfolios, even contact them personally (most of us have contact pages and portfolios, and have taken alot of time building them for you ...), and use the info you collect to make an informed decision (kinda like going shopping for a new TV).

Alright ... I have had more than my say, and thank anybody who read this post to this point ... HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL !!

[flashfreak]

I have to say it honestly: my first money in this biz were made from a "design contest". I still think they're a great opportunity for a newbie in the online adult scene.
I can't say I hate them but I don't like people that start a contest offering such low "prizes".
As a good example I can mention Wizzo's contest for makingbacon: Decent prizes, without the "tadaaa" show on boards...
The bad ones doesn't worth posting, you can see them almost everyday on adult forums...

[Roald]

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
While I am on this rant ... let me take a second to address several "up and coming" talented designers, without naming any names ... FOR CHRIST SAKES GUYS - TAKE SOME PRIDE IN YOUR WORK, and charge resonable rates! You do not have to WHORE YOURSELF at rates 5 times cheaper than everybody else to make a buck. If your work is quality, the clients who will keep food on your table will not mind paying for it within reason, and there is more than enough design work out there that we really do not need to cut each other's throats.

I have to agree on most points, but....when I started out designing almost a year back, it was hard to get some clients when nobody knows you. So I decided to offer designs for a real lowbudget price to fill up my portfolio.

Now I am at the point where people just hire me because I (mostly) work fast, design nice and for the low prices. I guess I am not that talented that I could ask about 1k for what I do (please let me know if I am ).

As for the contests, I think they can be a good to show your skills. I won best animated in the makingbacon banner contest and it made me feel good. I think everyone can decide for himself if he wants to join a contest or not


Q.

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

OK ... let me clarify my stance on contests ...

In the case of Makin' Bacon and larger contests that offer very good prizes, I agree that for some they are a great way to get exposure ...

The type of design contests I am really against, is some little known webmaster who posts a "design contest" as a means of getting several works to choose from, without really having to commit to ANY ... that is wrong !

[Roald]

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
OK ... let me clarify my stance on contests ...

In the case of Makin' Bacon and larger contests that offer very good prizes, I agree that for some they are a great way to get exposure ...

The type of design contests I am really against, is some little known webmaster who posts a "design contest" as a means of getting several works to choose from, without really having to commit to ANY ... that is wrong !

Agreed, according to me most of those works just end up all in the pocket of the one who started it, leaving the designers empty handed.

Q.

[mastamindz]

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
OK ... let me clarify my stance on contests ...

In the case of Makin' Bacon and larger contests that offer very good prizes, I agree that for some they are a great way to get exposure ...

The type of design contests I am really against, is some little known webmaster who posts a "design contest" as a means of getting several works to choose from, without really having to commit to ANY ... that is wrong !

"Time is money"

I dont think a designer should spend time on something that they may not get paid for when he/she could be working on something that will pay when he/she is finished.

[rayzor]

it's called competition.. people "whore" themselves out for business all the time whether it be design or programming or anything. it's not going to stop.. when you're a small up and coming company, you NEED to charge less to get the customers. wanting to pay less is just business, not about realizing that it's hard or takes skill. i could care less how much work you take to build it. give me a good price and if it's worth it'll i'll hire you or move to the next guy.. but obviously if you make great designs you shouldn't have to lower the prices and customers will still come.

[vidvicious]

Very well spoken Hungryman

If I may I'd like to add to this rant ... I came to the design and adult world via a different road then most. My background is in television broadcasting and the arts ... I have been freelancing for nearly 14 years and every once in awhile we run into New cameramen or directors that Whore themselves out at cut throat rates. I am proud to say that my best client. some one who's been with me for close to 5 years and whom refuses to work with anyone else but me, was a client that went for the rock bottom prices. She had hired me to do a reshoot and was so impressed by my preformance that the rest is history. I have since recieved Lots of work from her, some great referal and Awards from govermetn offices for the work I've done ( the last being a documnetary for lifetime achievement awards)

This goes on everyday, Just last week end I lost a great Gig for the UFC and WEFC (Ultimate Fighting Championships - Martial arts) Broadcast to an under bidder .. the rate this guy offered was $3000 to 4000 dollars lower then mine. I told the client to please (in my most polite voice) throw away my bussiness card... Harsh? Maybe, But I had wasted four days preparing this broadcast and then had to call 5 crew members to cancel. Not a fun job. My piont? Simple I seen the show that was shot and it sucks, it will not get accepted by broadcasters there is no doubt in my mind and in three months when the Next fights are scheduled, I'll be hearing from this guy, becuase he knows he screwed up. ( besides he's seen my work for UFC, UCC, Wrestling and Boxing.

The short of it very simple. What we do, whether it's mainstream or Adult deisgn, can be viewed (and should be viewed) as Advertising. THat design reflects the company. All the surfer knows is the design they don't know the company it self.. it's the design, well placed "buzz" words and content that sold them in the first place. So take pride in what you do, And stand up and protect your rates. A fair dollar will get a fair design. A well spent Dollar will return the benefits for years to cum .. And please keep in mind that a design should be changed at least once a year. Keeping fresh with today's trends (hee hee, there's a upsell for in it for Ya)

Good luck my friends and may 2003 Bring you wealth and reward.

[G Sharp]

Quashe -- loved your portfolio. Loved your $350 price for a paysite too!

Need to know: do you do anime/toons websites? Post a link to a past anime/hentai site?

Thanks,

G

[Young Hefner]

Great thoughts provided by all. I believe that we all know that the reason that people think that design should be cheep, is because anyone that has $150.00 can go to their nearest computer store and purchase Dreamweaver, or better yet, steal it off of the internet.
Then maybe purchase a full version of Adobe Photoshop, better yet, steal it off of the internet, and then make a very novice design, an then tell the world that it converts 1,000,000 times better than another professional design.

It is the land of the do it yourselfer that has a WYSIWYG.

And no one has any real care for tables that are all off, or designs that are ugly. Can we say that most porn out there is GAWDY!!!

Maybe like most art, the ARTISTS that design adult should start a Renaissance and reward the other artists that create good design. Maybe a design gallery hall of fame.

((( IF ANYONE BORROWS THIS IDEA, PLEASE GIVE PROPS TO ME )))

Maybe that would kinda feel sorta like the contest, but not... And we can make some kind of judges pannel to get people admitted into the hall of design.

I do reviews on occasion for YNOT where I review pages as far as their creativity as well as their potential for retention in my humble opinion. All of my reviews are done in a positive fashion, and I try to provide helpful hints to things that can be done better etc. **I havnt done any reviews in a while, i have taken the holidays off but i have to get back into it... contact me if you are interested**

Let us praise the other designers that actually create ART on the internet and not random trash to try to get the random guys that jack off to pass through a trashy designed tour. Some of the artists take alot of thought in creating their tours that I know. Thanx HungryMan for showing me this post.

Well hope to talk to people more

Send me an icq

Hef out

[dasexi1]

Excellent article!
I started out as a Designer in this biz back in 99' but after dealing with all the bullshit from a lot of the Adult webmasters I just stopped, I found no joy in designing it became a chore. Some webmasters were so shady that I had to start making all webmasters pay in full before I would even begin the work because even with a contract it was difficult to get all the payments.

After a while I just said fuck it and made my mind up to only design sites for myself and main stream clients. Of course i was lucky to have been able to work for Onprobation.com so I got to learn a lot about this biz before i jumped into it on my own. The best advise I got from Q'on was "I'm not telling you, go research it and learn on your own, you'll thank me later" I'm sure not every designer is cut out to be a webmaster but for me it works.

As far as these contests go I agree that these ones posted on the board by some webmasters are a waste of time. I hate seeing designers go after that shit like it's crack
the one posted the other day offering $35. for the best banner design...i mean really are ya'll designers, or crack ho's wtf? Do you need $35. THAT bad?

Take some pride in your work. If you need to build your portfolio do that first, find a couple well respected names in the biz, tell them your trying to build your portfolio offer to do a couple free banners or a logo or what ever else you might need for your portfolio, under the condition that they will give you a reference if needed and not tell that you did the work for free, make it clear that if they want work from you in the future they will have to pay full price. You can easily have a nice portfolio in one week. Then go out get real clients and charge what your skills are worth. The little bit of free work you've done will pay for itself in no time, and it's much better then under bidding all other designers, just to build your portfolio. Once you start doing that people expect it and return clients won't understand why you are charging more now then you were last month. You only hurt yourself by lowering your prices.

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

dasexi1 :

Well said !! Thank you for your contribution Brother !!

[dasexi1]

Originally posted by -=HUNGRYMAN=-
dasexi1 :

Well said !! Thank you for your contribution Brother !!

last i checked I was still a woman so make that "sister"

[Bree]

As an instructor at the college, I often have students come to me, asking if they can "challenge" the web graphics class because after tinkering with Photoshp a bit they think they know it all. One woman told me she knew "all of the phhotoshop tools" but then looked at me blankly when I asked her about the extract tool, dpi, slicing, rollovers, layers, etc. Seriously, this person thought because she could modify a picture in photoshop she knew it all. She had even been charging clients for doing graphics work.

I've found that clients that balk at the cost of project never really had any confidence in their project. If they think it's going to be successful and make money they are willing to invest in whatever it takes to get it off the ground. If they have any doubts about it or don't see the success in the long run, then they are usually the type that says "I just need something simple....." Simple always equals Cheap. To that person, I say I'm too busy at the moment and you'll need to find someone else to do the work. If you, as a designer, take on this client, you can bet that you will be dealing with scope creep in the near future.

The client owes it to him/herself to do some research. If the project is important to them they will do it.

The designer owes it to him/herself to always be the consumate professional and business person. Web design is not a hobby. It's work and good design has no shortcuts.

I would suggest this book for anyone that is serious about building sites (mainstream and adult) and needs help with dealing with clients. Kelly Goto's Web Redesign: Workflow that works http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

I agree with dasexi1 about portfolios. This the same advice I've given to my students. Do a few portfolio sites and then get on with it.

Something else I tell my students when they ask me about all any joe blow building websites.. I tell them "anyone can build a website, it takes a professional to create a web presence." You designers will know exactly what I mean.....

[dasexi1]

Originally posted by Bree
As an instructor at the college, I often have students come to me, asking if they can "challenge" the web graphics class because after tinkering with Photoshp a bit they think they know it all. One woman told me she knew "all of the phhotoshop tools" but then looked at me blankly when I asked her about the extract tool, dpi, slicing, rollovers, layers, etc. Seriously, this person thought because she could modify a picture in photoshop she knew it all. She had even been charging clients for doing graphics work.

lmao
sad thing is there are a few of those types on this board, we've all seen it, shook our heads in disgust, and tried to refrain from ripping the so called "artist" a new asshole.

[railz]

A-friggin'-men HM.

[JackFoley]

How did this turn into a design thread???

Get back to newbie bashing, fuckers.

[Roald]

Originally posted by G Sharp
Quashe -- loved your portfolio. Loved your $350 price for a paysite too!

Need to know: do you do anime/toons websites? Post a link to a past anime/hentai site?

Thanks,

G

Please contact me

[Fletch XXX]

I was told awhile back that the goin rate for a 2 page AVS was 25 bucks, and AVS splash was $15.

They pointed me to some shit hole AVS design site, sure enough 25$ AVS sites.

I quickly said well youre not talking to the right person.

Im done wasting my time on icq, I barely turn it on anymore.

no doubt in the end you always get what you pay for.

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

Originally posted by dasexi1


last i checked I was still a woman so make that "sister"

OOPS ... my bad

[MonkeyMan]

"After all, everybody knows that they get what they pay for"

I wish all the pseudo intellectuals would give up with that...

If you belive that shit your a dumb ass. You can win the lottery, you can fuck a drunk girl at a party, both for free.

Both of these things defeat that REATARDED, ANNOYING, CONFUCIUS SAY, BULL.....SHIT


*caps lock off*





If you were so smart.... You wouldn't have to resort to being an "Adult Webmaster" (SMUT PEDDLER)

So shut up and go get more retards with their dicks in their hand to give you their credit card info.