When will designers learn?

[JD]

Tables are for newbs. And make life hell

100% CSS

[Nilsy42]

Tables...

Tables are for newbs. And make life hell

100% CSS

Why are tables hell???
As I've said before, I am pretty new to all of this, and I was advised to stick everything into tables.
CSS-Stylesheets are great for a lot of things, but fuck, not easy to work design with. At least, as you "say" not for newbs.

I am presently working on some new sites, where I use tables (again), but I also use CSS-Stylesheets as an umbrella setting that can easily get changed.
I felt that was an easy way to get these new sites into the spirit of Affiliate stuff...
Is this wrong?

[lucas131]

Why tables all for newbies lol? All designers use tables to make page. Of course CSS styles are very good.

[Chio The Pirate]

YARGH! For a good example of table less design, and how css can be used to completely alter a site in seconds go to www.csszengarden.com

Every one of those examples uses the same html. Only the css changes.

Check out what's being done with css2. Mind blowing stuff.

[Chio The Pirate]

Same html. No tables.

Example 1: http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile...190.css&page=0
Example 2: http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile...188.css&page=0

Cool eh?

[Nilsy42]

Cool

YARGH! For a good example of table less design, and how css can be used to completely alter a site in seconds go to www.csszengarden.com

Every one of those examples uses the same html. Only the css changes.

Check out what's being done with css2. Mind blowing stuff.

Yeah, cool!
Suprising even.
However, I am just wondering, what's the problem with tables?

[fris]

Tables are for newbs. And make life hell

100% CSS

i was going to say designers are lazy as hell, they keep me stranded, waiting forever without contacting me, forcing me to give up and go look for someone else.

NEW YEARS RESOLUTION, DONT FUCK OFF.

[jimthefiend]

Tables rock you motherfucker.

[Jarmusch]

CSS is gay.

[Nilsy42]

Yepp

i was going to say designers are lazy as hell, they keep me stranded, waiting forever without contacting me, forcing me to give up and go look for someone else.

NEW YEARS RESOLUTION, DONT FUCK OFF.

Designers, and MOSTLY everyone in the Web industry are lazy fuckheads.
But not everyone...
I learnt this stuff, basically because I was pissed of waiting for them... Thought, fuck, I am smarter than them anyway.

[fetishblog]

Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5, and IE 6.x all support varying levels of CSS. I bet any site you design using solely CSS will look different under every browser. Now with that said, every browser supports tables.

[BlazingBucks_Ryan]

CSS Is incredible - while I am still learning it what I have done with it has been alot of fun. My biggest problem has been I overuse div tags and am not using enough sub classes so I end up with Div's causing <BR> tags effectively like this http://www.purchasemyfirsthouse.com - looks O.K. in IE based browsers but you start to see where I messed up the second you open in Firefox or Netscape browsers.

Any time I am trying to design a new site, I try to go table less... and use pure CSS, it is a learning process to say the least though. I understand the basics, where I have problems is aligning the different sections of the CSS layout...

[JD]

ok. so maybe not 100% CSS but christ guys. Enough with the 313413135 nested tables. a few SIMPLE tables should be plenty.
learn background-image: url('/images/fucktables.jpg');

[Verbal]

ok. so maybe not 100% CSS but christ guys. Enough with the 313413135 nested tables. a few SIMPLE tables should be plenty.
learn background-image: url('/images/fucktables.jpg');

Sounds like you need a new designer

[Nilsy42]

Gay?

CSS is gay.

[Nilsy42]

Aha

ok. so maybe not 100% CSS but christ guys. Enough with the 313413135 nested tables. a few SIMPLE tables should be plenty.
learn background-image: url('/images/fucktables.jpg');

Aha, so I am on the right track at least... (I hope)
I am mixing this stuff steadily more... as I find some advantages in this stuff.
I mean like for global changes etc, and not just local page changes.

[JD]

Sounds like you need a new designer

lol i don't. I work with other people's templates putting wordpress into them.

[Dirty Dane]

I can't still even figure out tables, they always get fucked up

[MichaelP]

Sounds like you need a new designer

BTW I use tables ...

... Since 1996 (almost 10 years now)...

Does that makes me a Noob ???

[JD]

Aha, so I am on the right track at least... (I hope)
I am mixing this stuff steadily more... as I find some advantages in this stuff.
I mean like for global changes etc, and not just local page changes.

definately a step in the right direction Also, aim for CSS posistioning. It's MUCH easier on the eyes/brain to move/remove divs then it is to fuck with nested tables 20 deep.

[Porko]

i love tables.

[JD]

BTW I use tables ...

... Since 1996 (almost 10 years now)...

Does that makes me a Noob ???

n00b

[Nilsy42]

Trouble...

lol i don't. I work with other people's templates putting wordpress into them.

But, I still don't understand the problem with tables.
I haven't even thought about "nesting" them... I only nest frames... but, even if a table was nested, what's the problem?

[wdsguy]

haha thats what our designer preaches all the time.

[Tom_PM]

CSS Is incredible - while I am still learning it what I have done with it has been alot of fun. My biggest problem has been I overuse div tags and am not using enough sub classes so I end up with Div's causing <BR> tags effectively like this http://www.purchasemyfirsthouse.com - looks O.K. in IE based browsers but you start to see where I messed up the second you open in Firefox or Netscape browsers.

Any time I am trying to design a new site, I try to go table less... and use pure CSS, it is a learning process to say the least though. I understand the basics, where I have problems is aligning the different sections of the CSS layout...

Yep. IE handles Box properties, (ie: Border, Padding and Margin), differently than Mozilla basically. Fiddle with the margin and padding and you'll get it right in both I bet. Ran into that same issue..

I agree in general that massively nested tables are usually gross code.. Usually it's an issue where someone didnt know how to span more than 1 row or column, so they jam a whole new table into an existing cell.. blech.

[Elli]

YARGH! For a good example of table less design, and how css can be used to completely alter a site in seconds go to www.csszengarden.com

Every one of those examples uses the same html. Only the css changes.

Check out what's being done with css2. Mind blowing stuff.

Thank you. I'm working on a redesign and ended up catching up on all the new CSS tips and tricks once I realized tables were no longer neccessary. Sure, it involves a bit more presketching, but it'll look so much sweeter when it's done.

[Nilsy42]

Sweeter??

Thank you. I'm working on a redesign and ended up catching up on all the new CSS tips and tricks once I realized tables were no longer neccessary. Sure, it involves a bit more presketching, but it'll look so much sweeter when it's done.

Are you allowed to use words like "sweeter" here???
Isn't that... close to blasphemic??

[JD]

But, I still don't understand the problem with tables.
I haven't even thought about "nesting" them... I only nest frames... but, even if a table was nested, what's the problem?

Much harder to put dynamic content into nested tables without it getting fucked up. unwanted stretching and what not. Divs are 10000 times easier to work with. I've done shitloads of WP integrations and from my experiences, tables are lame. They make a 30 minute job take an hour.

[BlazingBucks_Ryan]

For an example of what everyone means by tables being a mess, view this source code - http://www.funnyassjokes.com

I hate to even attempt to make a change to this design that came with the script until I have a good amount of free time on my hands to change everything to either pure CSS or at least a single table with rowspans rather than 300 tables, lol

Edited : Actually I just viewed the source and that doesn't look as bad as it does in the template for the thing... Working with the template is a disaster though

[JD]

For an example of what everyone means by tables being a mess, view this source code - http://www.funnyassjokes.com

I hate to even attempt to make a change to this design that came with the script until I have a good amount of free time on my hands to change everything to either pure CSS or at least a single table with rowspans rather than 300 tables, lol

Edited : Actually I just viewed the source and that doesn't look as bad as it does in the template for the thing... Working with the template is a disaster though

that's not toooo bad bu still. the page size would be half as much if it was css

[Nilsy42]

Scotty??

Much harder to put dynamic content into nested tables without it getting fucked up. unwanted stretching and what not. Divs are 10000 times easier to work with. I've done shitloads of WP integrations and from my experiences, tables are lame. They make a 30 minute job take an hour.

Yeah, beam me up Scotty.... yer a couple of light years ahead of me.. as suspected.. but I'm getting there...
Some people over here wanted to place some dynamic content on my site, but they never got finished...
They wanted a self changing advert to be placed.
But, if you are aiming at DB steered alterations with hits etc, is that something you do so much that tables create a problem?

Well, it is obviously a problem somewhere along the line, seeing as you're saying this.
Interesting... I must read about this.

[Nilsy42]

Size

that's not toooo bad bu still. the page size would be half as much if it was css

Yeah, I can see easy that a page size is dramatically smaller with the CSS versions of things.

[JD]

Yeah, beam me up Scotty.... yer a couple of light years ahead of me.. as suspected.. but I'm getting there...
Some people over here wanted to place some dynamic content on my site, but they never got finished...
They wanted a self changing advert to be placed.
But, if you are aiming at DB steered alterations with hits etc, is that something you do so much that tables create a problem?

Well, it is obviously a problem somewhere along the line, seeing as you're saying this.
Interesting... I must read about this.

changing ads are fine with tables BUT only if the size never changes. Tables will strech thus fucking your layout. with css you can set the overflow (stuff bigger than the div) to be hidden or scrollable so it won't stretch you layout at all

[TDF]

i hate tables with a passion

[fris]

i dont like wordpress. i like custom solutions

[Nilsy42]

True...

changing ads are fine with tables BUT only if the size never changes. Tables will strech thus fucking your layout. with css you can set the overflow (stuff bigger than the div) to be hidden or scrollable so it won't stretch you layout at all

Very true... Never realised you can work around it by CSS...
So far I've been adjusting the ads so they are correct according to what I want. And of course, just making sure that the Table alignment stays put, so it doesn't fly around.

[JD]

Very true... Never realised you can work around it by CSS...
So far I've been adjusting the ads so they are correct according to what I want. And of course, just making sure that the Table alignment stays put, so it doesn't fly around.

adding a style to the cell MAY allow you to hide the overflow as well.

<td width="blah" style="overflow: hidden;">
<?php include('banner.php');?>
</td>

[TheDoc]

CSS is crap outside of the basic use to set and adjust colors of text, links, etc. The problem isn?t designers not knowing how to use tables properly. The problem is they don?t know how to design / create graphics properly.

Most designers (most) create one large graphic (psd) file. Then they use the auto cut up feature in Photoshop. Doing this creates all those 1px space graphics. It also makes a huge amount of extra tables, within tables.

Designers need to learn how to properly cutup a graphic. Save each file one a time, and only cut out exactly what needs to be cut. Everything else is proper HTML. Doing it the correct way can cut the total file size of the page & graphics by 50% or more.

I know CSS, once you know it isn?t hard to use. But using it for your entire website is flat stupid. Not all browsers, even IE, doesn?t always respond correctly to CSS. I understand that nested HTML tables can be just as bad, but that is a design error, not a browser error.

I took wordpress, ripped out all the CSS (it has some coded within the code) and changed the script to work with my own directories. It takes me about 2 minutes to setup a new blog now, only basic CSS for text, it still uses the same template system. It?s a ton less BS to work with than a fresh css/wordpress template.

[Nilsy42]

Track

CSS is crap outside of the basic use to set and adjust colors of text, links, etc. The problem isn?t designers not knowing how to use tables properly. ....css/wordpress template.

Yepp!!!
I have NEVER understood all those templates out there that are made with PSD files like that.
They should really be pre-sliced into the respective areas that are to be text edited, like menues etc, and that the PSD file should be saved for global graphic changes only. But not for the whole page.

It's like... you might as well use a Flash Site, that also takes tonnes of time to load.
Well, ok, slight exaggeration... but not far from reality.

But personally I hate Flash Sites!
Flash is for ads in my opinion. At least at the moment.

[Nilsy42]

hate?

i hate tables with a passion

"Hate" is a very strong word young man.

[Elli]

Are you allowed to use words like "sweeter" here???
Isn't that... close to blasphemic??

Alrighty then. It can make things look smoother and more professional.

[woj]

YARGH! For a good example of table less design, and how css can be used to completely alter a site in seconds go to www.csszengarden.com

Every one of those examples uses the same html. Only the css changes.

Check out what's being done with css2. Mind blowing stuff.

impressive

[JD]

impressive

that's what she said

[Nilsy42]

Smoother

Alrighty then. It can make things look smoother and more professional.

So, honey bunny, you like it smooth....

All that's just design... Nothing in the CSS can't be made using normal stuff as I see it.
Everysingle piece of graphic content must be made somewhere, for example in Photoshop, and then saved somewhere, to be linked into the Site Page.
Whether that's done through CSS or regular HTML or whatever doesn't change the saved file.

The only thing so far that speaks in favour of the CSS, is as the Sperminator says, Dynamic content alterations.

I agree though, the designs used on those examples were very calm and tidy.

[JD]

So, honey bunny, you like it smooth....

All that's just design... Nothing in the CSS can't be made using normal stuff as I see it.
Everysingle piece of graphic content must be made somewhere, for example in Photoshop, and then saved somewhere, to be linked into the Site Page.
Whether that's done through CSS or regular HTML or whatever doesn't change the saved file.

The only thing so far that speaks in favour of the CSS, is as the Sperminator says, Dynamic content alterations.

I agree though, the designs used on those examples were very calm and tidy.

and overall page filesize which is a "tie breaker" in google

[Nilsy42]

Agreed!

and overall page filesize which is a "tie breaker" in google

Yes... sorry, forgot that one... the most important really.
Crazy small file size!!!

[Tom_PM]

Dont forget, the internet standard is to use CSS for page layout. Thats a plus I'd say..
True, slicing gets sloppy sometimes. People dont think to use the same number of slices per row and column, so wind up with a million spacer gifs or spacer cells and they're ugly.

[pornguy]

I think that to use only one, CSS or tables is asking for issues. Way tooooooo many browsers support many different things. Using a combo will work the best.

[DWB]

im not trying to re-invent the wheel. i just want to sell porn. tables or css... the guy jacking off could care less how it was built. if you have shitty content, it doesnt matter how slick or dynamic your page is. if it loads fast, is easy to navigate and makes you money... you did your job.

what ever works best for you. just dont forget who your end user is.

[asl]

CSS and MGPs don't match at all ;)